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For those that have used .458" through .474" rifles, what velocity have you used? Given what you have used what is your take on the minimum adequate velocity and a prefered velocity. We're talking DR velocities so if you experience is with the Lott at 2200+ or so, give your thoughts on say 2150, 2100... Discussion focused on 500 grain bulets but 480 grain bullet expeirience and thoughts re are welcome. Thanks, JPK  Free 500grains | ||
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My apologies for posting a re-run of a re-run, but here is some data that I have:
Please note that the sample space is not large enough to achieve statistical significance, nor has there been any effort made to address variation in shot placement which may have given some bullets an easier ride through the flesh than others. | |||
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500, No apology necessary. I've seen it before but that's still valuable information. Thanks, Kyler | |||
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I reload my 470 Merkel for practice only. For use on game I use factory Federal Woodleighs although the gun was factory sighted with Trophy Bonded's. Have no idea what the factory Federals are. Don't think I have ever looked at specs. Very effective round on game. One bullet recovered from heart shot was on off side and had actually penetrated the skin. Penetrated ribs on both sides and was very slightly flattened at the cannulure and visibly bent though not by much. Heart was neatly penetrated. SCI Life Member NRA Patron Life Member DRSS | |||
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Just look at the ballistics of the .450 nitros, .470, the 475's and .476 WR and you've got got it. They ahve all done the job for about a 100 years or more! | |||
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I used the North Fork cup point in my 470NE. I have never checked the velocity but guess it is around 2150pfs. It only took one shot to the side of the brain. Bullet went through and was not recovered. ****************************************************************** R. Lee Ermey: "The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." ****************************************************************** We're going to be "gifted" with a health care plan we are forced to purchase and fined if we don't, Which purportedly covers at least ten million more people, without adding a single new doctor, but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents, written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that didn't read it but exempted themselves from it, and signed by a President, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, for which we'll be taxed for four years before any benefits take effect, by a government which has already bankrupted Social Security and Medicare, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's broke!!!!! 'What the hell could possibly go wrong?' | |||
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Hey, I'm familiar with the ballistics of the NE rounds! And my research shows that the majority of rifles and loads chronographed don't turn up the often quoted velocities! But the smple size is only about ten rifles. Only two shoot at the so called traditional numbers and two actually surpass them. The rest are off, some way off. Just a look at the Kynoch website shows that their loads, matching traditional loads, depend on LONG barrells. Often much longer than seen on actual rifles - for instance the 470 Kynoch loads reach the often quoted speed in 31" of barrel. Imagine that you have a 458wm DR built by to a very high standard and that you are going to rechamber it to 450NE 3 1/4". Pressure isn't really an issue since the rifle handles 458wm pressures just fine. Imagine you can actually cut the pressure the rifle is handling and have the rifle reregulated for your choice of bullet and velocity, within reason. 26" barrels, fyi. For example, I'm thinking of a load that actually clocks 2150 with the 500 grain Woodleighs. But more velocity may be possible, or more velocity and the traditional 450NE bullet, 480 grain Woodleigh. 500 Grains points out the possibility of using another bullet, say the GS custom, as well. Not quite a clean slate to work with since bore is restricted to .458", barrel length is fixed at 26", and brass is limited to 450NE 3 1/4". But as mentioned velocity numbers within reason, bullet choice and weight are open questions. Any thoughts or suggestions welcome! JPK Free 500grains | |||
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JPK: The last six (6) ele I shot were with crf Winchester M-70 .458WM, 24"bbl, 500gr bullets AGS, and TBSH. Velocities with AGS: 2165fps, and the TBSH 2175fps. These velocities were across the screens at 12', and corrected to the muzzle. Each projectile did its job, and those which were located could have been shot again. Good luck, | |||
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JLS, Thanks for your reply. It is just the type of info I'm looking for. My DR in 458wm has worked well for two tuskless cows but its only pushing the Woodleigh 500 grain solids at about 2000fps in the African heat. The softs get to maybe 2080 or so. Any more velocity in the solids and they start crossing. If I have to reregulate the rifle to accomodate a faster load, I figure I may as well rechamber. Your load's performance sounds great. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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I used Bridger 500 gr flatpoints at 2150fps in a .470NE for my one and only ELE last summer. I got at least one complete pass-through on a body shot.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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Rob, Thanks for your post. Great info. Do you know at what angle that particular bullet penetrated? That kind of performance sounds fantastic. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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JPK, Shot a bull with the Bridger's also..Was the first to shoot an ele with one..Head shot little low massive destruction bull went all the way to the back of the skull and recovered...Second shot on shoulder as ele was spinning around and went into neck 6 feet of penetration stopped on far side of neck... 458 Lott 2175fps Mike | |||
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Mike, Thanks for the info. Another great example of excellent prformance. Sounds like the Bridger's really penetrate, as 500 Grains experience shows as well. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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JPK, Nobody can out document 500 grains, but here is a pic of a TCCI monolithic RN he did not test shot into elephant at nine paces.  Velocity was extreme for an elephant gun, 2550 fps. Flat Nose is North Fork which had much more penetration. Undeformed RN was head shot front on through heaviest bone in ele body the zygomatic arch of eye and recovered from opposite eye under skin about 35 inches. Expanded TCCI solid was through jaw and anything would open up in solid bone. About 29 inches. Not shown same bullet 10 feet pentratrion rear hip to heart rear to front. Alot of diff between guts and bone!!!!! You can use almost any modern FMJ or monolithic for elephant. Much less variation in performance than with soft points. Depends alot on where you hit them! Andy | |||
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Andy, Thanks for yor post. The velocity you're shooting is unacheivable in a DR but the bullet performance is nice to see. i imagine there would be little or no deformation at DR speeds - and probably not the penetration either, surely not 10'! Thanks, JPK Free 500grains | |||
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JPK, I am not an experienced hunter, just that one elephant under my belt, and no DR experience, but I think a DR shooting a similar TCCI or other monolithic would still make it into the boiler room on a medium sized elephant.  There are others here who know for sure. I was impressed that the TCCI broke the 6 inch diameter rear leg bone and passed through 21 inch thick leg, then carried on through large intestine, rupturing it as you see here.  So it still had alot of velocity to do that. The elephants lower jaw was completely broken off by the TCCI that expanded.  You cant see it from this angle but when viewed from the top you see a groove cit into the bone about 2 feet long. So it only expanded after going through almost two feet of solid bone. The TCCI shown above that went through 5-6 inch thick rear leg bone did not deform at all. A bullet going 2350-2500 fps decelrates more quickly than one going slower (less drag) but still has 10-20% advantage in penetration over a slower bullet. At least it did in my stop box tests.  Wood stop boxes can rightfully be critisized since it is not an aqueous test medium and does not give the FN the benefit it deserves, but it emperically documents a bullets inherent penetration ability (energy over unit of frontal area).  Left to right; 500 grain Kodiak FMJ (intended for 45-70 not 450 Dakota!), 450 grain GS FN, 450 grain North Fork RN-FN (early version of current truncated cone FN), 450 grain Barnes RN, 465 grain TCCI or A-Square RN. Andy | |||
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