Ezra,

If you do not add metallic sights to your rifle, I would suggest taking an extra scope and detachable rings with you.

And then trek with those when you are hunting.

And any tools you need to get the old scope and rings off.

Shooting a DGR like a shotgun is folly unless the stock has been custom made for you including heel/toe, cant and cast off. Thats a $2,500 option and a wood stock for most of us.

You can shoot over the scope with both eyes open, loking down the barrel but you will shoot WAY high doing this.

Try it and you will see what I mean.

Andy

I can see that there are times when a scope will be an advantage, such as picking a shot through brush at more than 25 yards. But going into the thick stuff after a wounded animal with a scope on top is looking for trouble. And approaching elephant inside of 10 yards with a scope is also not advisable.

As for shooting charging animals with a scoped rifle as if it were a shotgun on the theory that there will not be enough time to aim anyway, I am not able to find a way to agree with this. Unless the animal is inside of 4 yards and coming fast, or unless the shooter's reflexes are not very good, there will be time for a somewhat-aimed snap shot, in my experience. And aiming with iron sights will be easier at that distance than aiming with a scope.

However, I will agree that for the vast majority of casual buffalo huntes who will shoot their animal at 40 to 75 yards, a scope is an advantage. (Unless they have to go into the thick stuff...)

Saeed,

Test Andy's theory. I'm 6,000 miles from a gun. I can't believe I can't point (somewhat-aim) a .375 at ten yards and hit the rings.

I've not been in that situation, but I kind of smirk when I hear people talking about aiming for the brain of a charging DG at 10 yards. I'm assuming there is going to be a certain amount of noise, the DG isn't going to be moving on a set of rails, the shot most likely will be obscured somewhat by brush / grass, my pulse rate is probably going to be elevated, and I've got one and a half seconds to get the shot off, at best. My guess is the iron sights aren't going to capture my attention very much.

The above timing comes out to less than a 14 mph charge. I'm assuming he may be coming quicker than that.

My gut-feel is that I might be using iron sights if he's outside 25 yards or so, and coming hard. Inside that I'm going to be trying to aim at something vital that isn't bobbing up and down, or sideways, and hoping the PH has a better angle and is showering down on him faster than me. Beyond that, I think it is up to God to stop him.

Kensco,

Saeed does not need to test my "theory," as whatever he shoots with his scoped 375 x 404 seems to die.

The statement you will shoot high shooting over your sights, scope or barrel is not a "theory" by the way. It is an emperically verifiable fact.

I have been involved in firearms evaluation and training for 20 some years and whenever you tilt your head above your cheeck weld you will shoot high. Alot high.

Same is true of pistols.

The late Col. Jeff Cooper proved one must always use his front sight even at very close range.

If you go to a shotgun school and or get fitted for a custom double rifle or shotgun stock you will see how important cheek weld and comb height is.

PS I used a 3 X scope with 60 feet field of view on my elephant hunt last year and shot elephant at 9 yards. I will never use less than 100 foot field of view on a scope again for elephant hunting. (Can you say "expensive German scope.")

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
I wonder if 'instinctive' shotgun type shooting for example on a charging cape buffalo would be enough if the rifle has no iron sights. Only recently there was a report of a PH shooting and only just missing the brain and as a result got into trouble.

Of course it is usually the PH that gets into these situations and that is probably why I have never seen a PH's dangerous game rifle with a scope (as has been said before on this thread). Probably sums up the debate IMO.

Agreed!

Andy,

I have no reason to doubt what you say. My feeling is that I've shot high powered rifles and shotguns in the field for enough years (45+) that I have a pretty good feel how to acquire a target. I'm curious if I took my rifles to a range whether I would shoot as you described. I think not. Since I'm not anywhere near a rifle I would like to hear what other people discover.

I do think the different rifles might point to different spots. That seems logical. At 10 yards I think they all hit something important.

Shot my last two elephants with frontal brain shots at 20 yards in the trees and a 1.5 leupold worked just fine.

It depends upon what you are hunting.

If you are hunting plains game, I'd take an extra scope that you've zeroed on the rifle in the existing rings. If the scope on your rifle fails, you can undo the screws, take off the old scope, and put on the replacement. You need to put a couple of extra rounds in to check your zero.

It is not a bad idea to take the scope and your torex wrench with you everyday on the truck.

If you are hunting DG, I'd put iron sights on my rifle because if you wound the animal, the scope fails and you have to follow up, you need back up sights. This a confluence of three separate events, but sh!t happens. Only one of my DG rifles does not have iron sights and when it goes, other DG rifles go too. Kudude

quote:

Originally posted by Kensco:
I've not been in that situation, but I kind of smirk when I hear people talking about aiming for the brain of a charging DG at 10 yards.

I hope you are still smirking after you have actually been in that situation.

***

A lot of "aiming" is instinct with practice and experience, often does not actually remember using the open sights when shooting in a hurry, nor correctly assessing the right point of impact to aim at, but later if one assesses the shot I can remember the image of the foresight, lining up the correct features, considering angles, and speed, and then firing.

Try shooting your rifle at a charging or running target without sights. See how it goes. Anyone here tried it?

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

Try shooting your rifle at a charging or running target without sights. See how it goes. Anyone here tried it?

I forget why but I took a 375, without sights, to the range (to test loads I think) one day and just shot "at" the target just to see what happened. Hardly a charging animal, and maybe it is just me, but I couldn't hit squat at 25 yards.

I think I need sights!!

Even on a shotgun I need a good visible front bead!

I have a peep sight that clips onto the rear scope base on my Damoulin rifle, as a back up in case the scope breaks.

Strictly speaking though, If the stock is correctly set up for a scope, using Iron sights of whatever description should be difficult in which case a spare scope or, perhaps better still, an electronic red dot sight in spare rings should be taken along. For a follow up in poor light it is hard to beat a red dot!

NitroX,

You missed my point maybe. I'm not smirking at anyone. I'm smirking at the idea. There is no way on Gods green earth that I think I would be able to hit the brain of a buffalo reliably when he's charging me from close range. His head better be way steady, and maybe that's the case.

I have this vision of a grapefruit or small melon coming my way at 30+ MPH through the thicket / grass, with the action of a major league knuckleball.

For those that have faced a full-blown charge, is a brain shot on buffalo easier than it sounds? I don't think I could hit something like that once out of three shots, and those aren't odds I like.

I personally had the feeling that rather than go for a bobbing brain I would hold on his neck or head, whatever is coming at me, level with his spine, thinking that I'm going to hit head/neck/spine, something that might get his attention, and maybe even hit his brain.

The brain shot sounded like an all or nothing gamble. Hit the brain, you win; miss and a limb of some tree has a nick in it and you have an angry buff in your lap.

I'm going to leave my iron sights on my 375 just in case, but in a close-up, shit-hits-the-fan situation, I'm not going to waste time lining them up.

quote:

Originally posted by Kensco:
NitroX,

You missed my point maybe. I'm not smirking at anyone. I'm smirking at the idea. There is no way on Gods green earth that I think I would be able to hit the brain of a buffalo reliably when he's charging me from close range. His head better be way steady, and maybe that's the case.

Yes I know that is the case. And even less a chance for someone using a scope sighted rifle.

Your above scenario is one reason big bore double rifles are popular. Hell they even handle like a shotgun!

quote:

Originally posted by Don Heath:
Even on a shotgun I need a good visible front bead!

I have a peep sight that clips onto the rear scope base on my Damoulin rifle, as a back up in case the scope breaks.

Strictly speaking though, If the stock is correctly set up for a scope, using Iron sights of whatever description should be difficult in which case a spare scope or, perhaps better still, an electronic red dot sight in spare rings should be taken along. For a follow up in poor light it is hard to beat a red dot!

Don, your clip on ghost ring is a good back up, and if the front sight is high enough the stock made for scope use will work fine. That is, if your main use is the scope, and your scope is mounted in quality QD rings, and bases, then the irons are simply an emergency sight, and an already zeroed spare scope in another set of QD rings is the safari saver. In this case, the clip on is only a TROPHY saver, to be used when already on a trophy, and something happens to your scope. No tools are needed to remove the scope, and the clip on can finish a stalk,on the animal in front of you!

If there are no irons on the rifle at all, and your spare scope is in the Bakki, your finished! I say it costs so little to have quality sighting equipment, and back-up, installed on your rifle, I simply don't see the mindset, that resists it! Especially considering the cost of a safari, you might waste, even if for only one good trophy!

I have two bolt rifles that have scopes and wide V open sights. On my rifles I have been very particular about stock fit and with them the transition from scope to open sights is seamless. They include a 458 Lott and a 375 H&H. I have never shot a DG animal with the Lott with the scope (did shoot a poachers dog with it scoped though). With the 375 I have never used the open sights on DG. I have only shot buffalo with it.

My doubles are only equipped with open sights and I have had no problems placing my shots on DG out to 125 yds. On charges I have had no problem lining up the open sights on the doubles or the Lott. Because the guns fit me perfectly the sights are aligned when the butt hits my shoulder and I do not have to search for them or make adjustments to get them in line. They are just there when I need them to be there. I actually look through the the open sights and I am focused on the spot on the animal where I want the bullet to hit. When my rifles were lost on my way to Zim to hunt elephant this year I ended up using a 458 Ruger with a 4X scope borrowed from a PH. To say I was uncomfortable with that set up is a gross exageration. As it turned out we tracked a bull and I killed it with a side brain shot at 26 yds. No problem as it turned out.

465H&H