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Hi Folks, If anyone is looking for a 1 x 1 plus observer Cape buffalo hunt in 2017 or 2018 please consider our donated hunt at SCI. Donation Number: 36024 Slot: TD023 (Thursday Day Auction) The money goes to a good cause and of course you get a “proper” Zambezi Valley buffalo experience!!! Many thanks Buzz | ||
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Buzz, I tried...their system wouldn't take my online bid. I'll keep working on it. Karl Evans | |||
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Can someone please explain to me how this system works? For example, if this hunt is normally priced at say $10,000 by the original giver, how much would it go for at the auction? And what sort of bid is considered minimum? Is it returned back if it is not sold? | |||
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Saeed, from what I have seen.... There is no minimum bid at SCI, although they do start out at some fraction on the floor when bidding starts, but if no one bid at that price, they would have to go down until someone bid. I have never seen that happen, but haven't sat in the bidding much either. If there is some reserve, who knows, but it is not stated. Some of the auction offerings, especially the common PG offerings have traditionally gone for very little...part of why some of the operators complain, as they are trying to sell a hunt when some ostensibly similar hunt is auctioning for pennies on the dollar. | |||
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Saeed: I believe I can explain how it works as far as DSC's auctions go for donated hunts(I bet SCI's are somewhat similar). The donor assigns a value to the donation, in this case it appears to be a donation of daily rates, buyer to pay trophy fees, transportation, etc.. The organization sets a minimum bid, unless the donor sets a "reserve price", many if not most donations are 100% donations, some have a rebate given back to the donor (this is how DSC works...can't say for sure about SCI) once the hunt is taken, assuming the donation was a hunt. As for sales price to value, it can vary greatly depending on the desirability or rarity of the donation. Most of the hunts sold at our convention sell for less than stated value, some considerably less and some for full value. All of the donated hunts are sold during auctions at the convention, either live or silent. In the event a h8int manages to go unsold at the convention, it will be auctioned during the year or used as a prize at a DSC event, with the donors permission. As for SCI, I know for a fact that they have far more hunt donations than DSC, so I imagine the starting and final selling price might be a lower percentage to stated value. Karl Evans | |||
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KARL and SAEED Karl now thats not great!!!! I will email them and tell them as obviously this affects the over all price and apart from the fact that I want you to win and have you and Rebecca back with us!!!! SAEED to be honest with you we are very happy with the donation of a buff we have made to Dallas! There are not too many donations that affect our marketing and we know that the money ( we do 100% donations) generated goes to a great cause. However this will be the last donation we make to SCI- the reason been is I was checking on the " donated" hunts and there are literally thousands. If I am not mistaken the donated hunts equates to about half the number of people that will pass through the show doors. As operators that is NOT a good situation as it really undermines our ability to sell as many prospective clients simply buy at the auction and as Karl mentioned most of them sell well below Par!! I have just come through Dubai but was there only for a morning. I will be coming through again on the 28th Saeed and would love to give you a copy of my new dvd and have a cup of coffee- let me know if you are around! | |||
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Buzz, It is always a pleasure to see you. Give me a call when you are here and we can get together, I am here until early next month. | |||
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I believe we as Outfitters, who are the main draw card to these conventions, should offer a solution to this problem Buzz. Every auctioned item should have a 40% "reserve" price on the value of the item and that should go to the Outfitter. Or something like that...... I do not have all the answers, but we need to chance the way auctioned hunts are offered. Karl, me and Erika love DSC and it was our BEST show ever this year. But for all your outfitters to continue making a living, I would suggest DSC also looks at this model. I refer to DSC simply because you are also rolling out the chapter model, and that is where the real evil lies. Chapters needs money, and the quickest way to get them is to ask for donations. I already did that this year with a Buffalo hunt I offered to SCI. Any case, in South Africa we are already starting to work on different models to present to PHASA to "kick" up the chain to SCI. I hope we can get a model acceptable to the other African countries as well. Charl van Rooyen Owner Infinito Travel Group www.infinito-safaris.com charl@infinito-safaris.com Cell: +27 78 444 7661 Tel: +27 13 262 4077 Fax:+27 13 262 3845 Hereford Street 28A Groblersdal 0470 Limpopo R.S.A. "For the Infinite adventure" Plains Game Dangerous Game Bucket List Specialists Wing-Shooting In House Taxidermy Studio In House Dip and Pack Facility In House Shipping Service Non-Hunting Tours and Safaris Flight bookings "I promise every hunter visiting us our personal attention from the moment we meet you, until your trophies hang on your wall. Our all inclusive service chain means you work with one person (me) taking responsibility during the whole process. Affordable and reputable Hunting Safaris is our game! With a our all inclusive door to door service, who else do you want to have fun with?" South Africa Tanzania Uganda | |||
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I was pleasantly surprised to get an email from Shawn Murphy explaining the bidding- To bid you need a current SCI Membership and go to http://auction.safariclub.org to register for the auction Hope this helps! | |||
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Glad to see you have come to you senses Buzz. Donated hunts do nothing to improve your company. Nothing. If you care to donate for a "cause then so be it. But it does not help CMS nor anyone else.. Jeff | |||
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Donations do not help the donor in any way whatso ever , be they to DSC or SCI , we like you Buzz believed that donations were serving a greater call and that a benefit would be some sort of recognition by the club . Joke , we donated every year to DSC only to be told by Ben Carter our elephant hunt donations earned us no points we were put in the same category as someone who donated a set of fork and knifes or a gun bag. Thats after nearly 10 elephant hunt donations to Botswana , this was not the case when Gray ran the show , he knew the contribution of every outfitter and ensured you were made to feel your donations meant something for DSC. Like most long time serving Big Game Outfitters we stopped donating to DSC long before the closure of hunting in Botswana. SCI are no better but you get points according to your loyalty , but they certainly dont appreciate it further than the day of the auction , again we supported them for 20 years and I can assure you if we donated a case of pop for 20 years we would recieve about the same amount of thanks and appreciation. We met some great hunters through the donation program and we can only hope the money reached the conservation projects instead of funding the old boy club awards. I doubt it but you have no say . As to putting on reserves or minimums - this debate is as old as the clubs themselves , I know this has been brought up every year for the last 20 years and SCI and DSCbasicaly tell the Associations and donors they can donate or not , there is always 100 people waiting to donate and make an impression , so its donate or go back to the back of the que | |||
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SBB: You are 100% incorrect in thinking that a donated elephant hunt (or any other hunt, knife and fork set, fishing trip, photo safari or any other donation) earned no points. The points earned for donations is based on the stated value of the donation, not the type of donation. You say you met some great hunters thru the donation program and I suspect unless they had a really bad hunt, that some of these hunters booked another hunt (I know I've booked return trips with outfitters who I first met thru a donated hunt). I don't know which long time serving big game outfitters you are referring to, but our auctions are full of donated hunts every convention, many of which are from long established and well known outfitters. Reserves or minimums? Some items do have "reserves", most notably very high end firearms and jewelry, I have also seen a couple of specialty hunts sold with reserves. You are correct in saying the debate about minimums has gone on for years, and Charl suggested in an earlier post that a 40% minimum be set and that all or a portion of the 40% be given back to the outfitter. In reality, some of the hunt donations are not that great and may not sell for much more than 40% of value (and may not sell for 40%), to set a minimum selling price could possibly cripple an auction and many items could go unsold and that isn't good for the outfitter or the organization. You are also correct in saying there are always 100 people waiting to donate, currently there are almost 600 exhibitors on the DSC waiting list, not all hunting outfits...some knife and fork sellers, clothing, boots, jewelry and the like, but nearly 500 hunting outfits trying to get a booth. Hope to see you if you make it back to Dallas. Karl Evans | |||
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Charl: I'm very happy you had a good show in Dallas and I've spoken with many others that had good or great shows. Your input on the auctions system is appreciated and believe it or not, this sort of thing is discussed in the "after action meetings", that doesn't mean it will change...but it's discussed, and seriously. I wish I had a solution but I'm afraid I don't. You are correct about the chapter launch and I'm certain they ask for donations as well, and if an outfitter chooses to donate to a chapter that is fine, if they choose not to donate that is fine, too. The chapter representative asking for the donation should be certain to explain that any donation to the chapter is just that...a donation to the chapter and the value of the donation does nothing towards "points" at the DSC convention, but such a donation can put the outfitter in front of a whole new pool of potential clients. Please let me know if you are told otherwise. Some years back, PHASA was working on a proposal of sorts but their members wouldn't support it (and I can't remember the particulars) and it went away. I also believe the outfitters are the main draw at the conventions (all of them, not just DSC) and I think the donated items are a main draw at the banquets. But it is a two way street, I'm not aware of any venue in the US where an outfitter can "show his stuff" and promote his company to tens of thousands of prospective buyers, at any cost. We are happy to provide the venue but have to pay the bills in order to continue to provide the venue. You guys help us pay the bills and we appreciate it, we also appreciate any ideas or suggestions you might have. Dr Scott here on AR is the Convention Chair next year and he has quite a list of suggestions and ideas already that he will be working on (some, I can tell you ain't gonna happen, but some are really good suggestions). Hope to see you next year! Karl Evans | |||
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Hi Karl My two cents on the donations... 1) Instead of having a minimum bid as suggested, give the outfitter the option to buy back the hunt at $ 1 more than the highest bid. This will take care of the ridiculously low bids on especially plains game hunts. 2) Give us as outfitters SOMETHING back for our donations/ loyalties. Like as an example, if your donations over x number of years, reach a certain amount, give the outfitter a Life Membership to the club. 3)Your current system groups all Namibian and SA outfitters into the same category, where they have to all donate trophy fees as well. This is done on the assumption that the outfitter owns the game on his own private land. This is not always the case, someone like myself have to buy it from the government/ community on concessions just like Buzz and them are doing in Zim. Make a distinction between private land hunting and concession hunting donations rather. Hope this helps in some small way. Karl Stumpfe Ndumo Hunting Safaris www.huntingsafaris.net karl@huntingsafaris.net P.O. Box 1667, Katima Mulilo, Namibia Cell: +264 81 1285 416 Fax: +264 61 254 328 Sat. phone: +88 163 166 9264 | |||
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KE = yes many DSC donation hunters returned , you know them from Tony Farris , Chris Hudson , Mike Mckinney , Don Senter , Gerald Warnock , Pete Witmann to name a few. The point is as discussed with Ben Carter - most donations were just written off , I think I got a few points at their discretion. DSC does have the minimum bid option but SCI not - not only PHASA tried to get a reserve - but so did TNZ , MOZ , Nam , ZAM and all of us here in Botswana at the time. APHA included. The point is that you are forced to donate at SCI and much the same at DSC , or you go to where I was with the knife and fork brigade - my vocal protest probably did not help , but 10 donated elephant hunts later , I realized the pointlessness of it all. I disagree that it is good for the host to be the number one competitor with the exhibitors - the host takes 500 clients off the floor with the donation hunts. I donated because I believed in the mission statement of both organizations - I was wrong and learnt like most do after 20 years. What Karl S suggests is spot on but as we know we have tried many of these proposals to no avail. | |||
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My experience with Ducks Unlimited years ago (as a part owner of outfitter/guide service) left me with a sour taste over the whole 'donation' thing. With that perspective, as an outsider looking at 'donated' safaris, it seems more like extortion/bribe/protection money to drive show attendance than the more common understanding that a donation is a free gift to a good cause with no quid pro quo. Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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There is a difference to ASKING for donations, and DEMANDING donations. SCI does not ask, they blackmail everyone to pay up, or else. And any time they do anything remotely beneficial to us as hunters, the chest thumping never stops! | |||
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Karl, Thanks for being on AR and explaining this. It has been and continues to be divisive. I am at the Wild Sheep Show right now, my first time to attend the evening auctions at any show. A couple of observations. 1. The most costly items auctioned are Sheep tags. The tags I saw auctioned dwarfed all other items. 2. Two cape buff hunts were auctioned. Both went for about $12,000. These were in South Africa and I had not heard of the safari outfitters. I know of most of the top of line outfits. 3. There are a lot of rifles up for auction but did not sell at a premium. 4. It appeared to me the hints offered were only "partial hunts" meaning there were part of the hunt being offered and the buyer would have to buy other "stuff" from the hunt company. For instance, a mountain zebra hunt was offered that covered the trophy fee for the zebra and the daily rate. However, no one goes to Namibia for just a mountain zebra. The hunter would then pay "normal rates" for other animals. 5. Buyers are savvy. They know what an item is worth -especially hunts. One brown bear hunt sold for $25,000. That is the going rate for that hunt. I would like to think there is a better way to raise money AND have a great show. But I am not sure what it is. Maybe a better idea is to start a thread on how to do this! | |||
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I have to disagree that donated hunts do not help the outfitter. I bought a buff hunt at the Raleigh NC SCI meeting last year. The outfitter was a great guy I had met before. Johan Hermann. I had a great experience. I will hunt with him again. I also shot a 13 foot croc and a very old Giraffe while there. He made money on both those. I arranged to have a friend hunt at the same time. I didn't care if it became 2 X 1. He paid for a buff hunt at a fair price. The outfitter made money on his buff, a hyena and some plains game. So he collected money and made two very satisfied customers that will return to hunt with him. In this situation, everyone won: the SCI chapter, the outfitter and the auction winner Kodiak 2022 Namibia 2019 Namibia 2018 South Africa 2017 Alaska Brown Bear 2016 South Africa, 2016 Zimbabwe 2014 South Africa 2013 Australia 2011 Alberta 2009 Namibia 2007 Alberta 2006 | |||
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The CMS donation to SCI was valued at $11,000, and starting bid was $1,100 online. Current bidder is at $3,750 bidding increment of $250 so next bid would be $4,000. A few things about these auctions and especially the online aspect of bidding vs attending live. I watched the Wednesday night live DSC auction through the online bidding platform. I was wanting to win a hunt, and had bid already online. I believe I was screwed because a week before the auction my bid jumped from minumum to my maximum, which I thought strange that if someone else bid, they stopped exactly where I bid. Anyway, the auction finally comes up, and no one is bidding, I am winning at $5,000 for a hunt valued at $13,000 i believe. Someone on the floor bids $5250 but... the person running the computer part doesn't notice, hence still showing me winning online, and a greyed out bid button, and when the auction ends with no additional bids, I lose. Needless to say I was not happy, and did not participate in any further DSC auctions this year. Also I noticed the floor could bid less than the stated increment if they wanted, whereas online I had to bid in set increments. Peeved me. SCI's online auction appears to be operated by the same company, so I will forgo bidding unless I can attend, which I will be unable to this year. I plan to attend SCI in '18 and maybe the sheep show also. I have attended DSC 4 or 5 times. I agree the auctions go quite a bit lower than what you would expect most of the time, which is indicative of a limited supply of buyers. I do not believe it does nothing for the donor, but see how it can feel that way after donating year after year, high dollar donations, and SCI and DSC keep putting their hand out. I would think if one company donated an elephant hunt that would be the same as what, 3, 5, 10 PG hunts? It definitely should generate more revenue for the organization. DSC SCI Life NRA Life WSF Life <1 Club | |||
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