University of Exeter research has shown 93% reliability in identifying individual leopards by their roars. Using camera traps and sound recording they identified the leopards roars. Report on Science Daily.
I don't know whether in a few years time we will have PHs sitting at the campfire with their phone on an app and saying "There's a new male moved in across the river we have never heard before"
They all sound the same to me!

Leopards do not roar!

Leopards cough, grunt but not roar and each Leopard produces a "signature cough" which one can notice if it is a resident of the area, e.g the camp Leopard.

Scientists, being Scientists chose to call a log sawing cough as a roar because they can't think of a better name for it. Technically leopards are counted as a big cat because they"roar" while Cheetahs are considered to be a small cat because they do not. Size has nothing to do with it. Sounds weird, but they are Scientists!

Then we must accept the Scientist's word as final.
Roar it is.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:
Then we must accept the Scientist's word as final.
Roar it is.

Yes.

A historian scientist once told me Hannibal went over the Alps with elephants and a 100,000 soldiers too.

He went quiet when I asked him how they fed them!

Not much food on the mountains in the Alps!

I am there right now and can see it for myself!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:
Then we must accept the Scientist's word as final.
Roar it is.

Yes.

A historian scientist once told me Hannibal went over the Alps with elephants and a 100,000 soldiers too.

He went quiet when I asked him how they fed them!

Not much food on the mountains in the Alps!

I am there right now and can see it for myself!

side of the food no scientist so far has been able to show and demonstrate which routes the whole army took to cross the mountains ...

I agree that leopards don't roar. But if you wound one and he charges, they growl -- it seems really loud at that moment -- and could be mistaken for a roar. Unfortunately, I speak from experience.

I think Pom's comment was focused on the innovations in technology that we use to hunt cats today and the ethics of that. I've often thought about that issue given the almost universal use of camera traps on every bait. Then we spend hours looking at the photos on the computer after dinner to age the lion, decide how big the leopard is, etc. It saves hours/days in a blind for sure, but also allows you to pattern a cat with the time stamp.

One year, we encountered a seriously lion mauled young roan bull, that clearly was not going to make it. His wounds were infected and the game scout said to shoot him. We decided to hang him as a bait nearby, hoping to find the lion that did it. We hadn't planned on hanging baits that day, but we did the best we could and put a camera trap up. The next day, the bait is gone and a lone lion (big, based on his tracks) has drug the roan away. Before we just followed the easy track potentially leading to an encounter that could result in injury to either a lion or hunters, we decided to check the card in the camera trap. He was a very nice 4 1/2 year old with a lot of potential. Tech was a good thing that day.

We had a big Tom leopard coming in to a lion bait every day at med-day. If you hadn't had the trail cam pictures, you'd know that a big cat came in every day, but you'd sit him mid to late afternoon and early morning and never see him, so you'd assume he only came at night. I was only hunting lion that year so it didn't matter. But because of the trail cam, it would have been pretty easy to have taken that leopard. Would tech be a good thing in that case? I'm not sure.

All in all, I'm fine using the technology we use to ensure a safe hunt, that only animals that should be shot are shot, and to assist in our success. I think the question becomes how many more advances in technology are still acceptable from a hunting ethics standpoint.

Lavaca. Exactly! Where do we draw the line?
I have no problem with shooting vermin at night with a thermal so how long before shooting leopards at night with a thermal is normal?
I enjoy calling Roebucks in the rut but how long before PHs start (if they haven't already) recording the ultra low frequency calls of a cow elephant on heat and playing them back on the boundary of a National Park? Bulls have been called from many miles away by such recordings.
When I was a kid, telescopic sights were considered a bit unsporting.
Will the next generation enjoy hunting using a gun mounted on a drone so they can stay in bed and still kill?

I have stopped telling people about ethics a very long time ago.

Basically we are predators.

And if we follow the example of other predators, there is nothing that is off limits!

Just see how other predators hunt, and kill.

That shout a stop to your over thinking about it.

I do draw the line when it comes to so called trophy hunts.

Where an animal is cap and put in an enclosure for some stupid self serving SCI Inner Circle wannabe comes along and shoots it.

quote:

Originally posted by the Pom:
Lavaca. Exactly! Where do we draw the line?
I have no problem with shooting vermin at night with a thermal so how long before shooting leopards at night with a thermal is normal?
I enjoy calling Roebucks in the rut but how long before PHs start (if they haven't already) recording the ultra low frequency calls of a cow elephant on heat and playing them back on the boundary of a National Park? Bulls have been called from many miles away by such recordings.
When I was a kid, telescopic sights were considered a bit unsporting.
Will the next generation enjoy hunting using a gun mounted on a drone so they can stay in bed and still kill?

Rewind the clock to an era when the fancy gadgets such as the GPS, Trail Cams, etc. were not invented; the days when you hunted using your hunting skills in assessing the size and sex of a Leopard by taking note of the various factors that would lead you to a large cat without physically setting eyes on the animal; pug marks determine the size and sex of the animal, the width between claws and depth of the scratch left behind after “hitting” the tree and the force applied to pull itself up the trunk, the amount of meat devoured between sittings indicating the voracious disposition (or not) of the animal which invariably denotes size.
The transition first began with an ingenious PH rigging an old-fashioned mechanical clock triggered to stop when the cat hit the bait giving the hunter an idea of a feeding time; nowadays the trend is to make it as easy as possible for the Leopard to get to the bait with “lean to” trunks then deploying one or several trail-cams which will produce all the evidence you require, including the size of its balls without sitting and waiting to assess the animal..
Most clients stuck for time in the field, are happy with the system of “pre-baiting” and obtaining a brochure of Leopards that fill the bill. In some instances, traditional 16 day safaris have been dramatically reduced to half the required time and an almost guarantee in securing the Leopard.
To me it seems that the “lore” of a traditional African safari is beginning to phase itself into oblivion but at the same time turns the industry into a “wham, bam, thank you m’aam” operation.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Originally posted by the Pom:
Lavaca. Exactly! Where do we draw the line?
I have no problem with shooting vermin at night with a thermal so how long before shooting leopards at night with a thermal is normal?
I enjoy calling Roebucks in the rut but how long before PHs start (if they haven't already) recording the ultra low frequency calls of a cow elephant on heat and playing them back on the boundary of a National Park? Bulls have been called from many miles away by such recordings.
When I was a kid, telescopic sights were considered a bit unsporting.
Will the next generation enjoy hunting using a gun mounted on a drone so they can stay in bed and still kill?

Rewind the clock to an era when the fancy gadgets such as the GPS, Trail Cams, etc. were not invented; the days when you hunted using your hunting skills in assessing the size and sex of a Leopard by taking note of the various factors that would lead you to a large cat without physically setting eyes on the animal; pug marks determine the size and sex of the animal, the width between claws and depth of the scratch left behind after “hitting” the tree and the force applied to pull itself up the trunk, the amount of meat devoured between sittings indicating the voracious disposition (or not) of the animal which invariably denotes size.
The transition first began with an ingenious PH rigging an old-fashioned mechanical clock triggered to stop when the cat hit the bait giving the hunter an idea of a feeding time; nowadays the trend is to make it as easy as possible for the Leopard to get to the bait with “lean to” trunks then deploying one or several trail-cams which will produce all the evidence you require, including the size of its balls without sitting and waiting to assess the animal..
Most clients stuck for time in the field, are happy with the system of “pre-baiting” and obtaining a brochure of Leopards that fill the bill. In some instances, traditional 16 day safaris have been dramatically reduced to half the required time and an almost guarantee in securing the Leopard.
To me it seems that the “lore” of a traditional African safari is beginning to phase itself into oblivion but at the same time turns the industry into a “wham, bam, thank you m’aam” operation.

Very true and my last Lions were picked up on bait and hunted down on foot. With Leopard, it is the track and the weight of it and I will sit on it irrespective of what a camera says.

Andrew,

I really need to talk to you about lion. that is exactly the way I like to hunt them. Tracked, from a bait or otherwise.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Andrew,

I really need to talk to you about lion. that is exactly the way I like to hunt them. Tracked, from a bait or otherwise.

I am not sure you really have a choice of how to hunt lions.

Tracking lion, in most places they are found, is extremely difficult if not impossible!

I think at least 6 of the lions I have shot were not on bait.

They were not tracked as such either.

We see them while in the bush, then try to get close and shoot.

Last one he found us!

And charged!

The most exciting lion hunt I ever had was unsuccessful, if a kill is the criteria, but I refuse to consider it unsuccessful as we had the shot, but didn't take it.

As with Saeed's hunt, the lion found us. I got out of the gari to take a picture of a hawk and the lion roared at me and ran off. He looked good from what we saw, so we tracked him. Tracking lions is hard, as Saeed noted and it was slow going. The trackers worked hard and stayed on the track, but lost the track occasionally so it was slow going. At one point, while they were looking for the track, we were standing beside a large brush pile for some time while they looked for the track ahead. There was a commotion in the brush pile and a rabbit burst out of it. By instinct, I swung on it. The guys gave me a really hard time about that afterwards. They thought that was hilarious that I came close to shooting a rabbit with a .416.

They found the track and we followed through some trees to an opening overlooking a motte of trees that cast a dark shadow below them. There was very little underbrush beneath the trees and if I were a lion, that is where I would be. So we glassed carefully. For a long time. And saw nothing. But he was there. As soon as we stepped out of the trees, he growled again and took off. We tracked some more.

We finally caught up with him and I got on the sticks and had my crosshairs on his shoulder. I asked the PH for a thumbs up and he said, "I think he's six" and I let him walk. He went into a stand of tall grass that went on for hundreds of yards. It wasn't wise to follow and we'd never have been able to track in there. If we could have, visibility was inches not feet. it was an exciting hunt. If I'd heard he was over six, and I think he was, that would have been a "successful" hunt. But it was anyway.

Aging lions.

On many occasions, I have seen the same lion several times.

Several professional hunters would guess the age.

Their guess can change from day to day, especially if it is a borderline lion.

Anytime this happens, I refuse to shoot it.

The ones where a professional hunter sees it, and immediately knows it is old enough to, is the ones we shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Andrew,

I really need to talk to you about lion. that is exactly the way I like to hunt them. Tracked, from a bait or otherwise.

it is now a few decades ago but in CAR we used a trumpet to call them (when i say we it was the trackers doing that amazing skill) it is of course very efficient but can bring some close calls.

Totally agree.

Back when I had a lion at 20 yards watching him on sticks, but he was only about 5. Got some great pictures. He was very distinctive because he had a pronounced scar on his lip. In subsequent years I saw game cam pictures of him with his cubs. That was special.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Aging lions.

On many occasions, I have seen the same lion several times.

Several professional hunters would guess the age.

Their guess can change from day to day, especially if it is a borderline lion.

Anytime this happens, I refuse to shoot it.

The ones where a professional hunter sees it, and immediately knows it is old enough to, is the ones we shoot.

The above reminds me of 3 brothers that frequented one concession as an inseparable trio.

They were first sighted by several of us 4 years ago and we all concluded they were in the 4/5 year age group and that they must have moved in from a neighboring concession possibly driven away by the ongoing work of the now completed dam.

They were continuously being sighted several times during the hunting seasons by different PHs as they had taken up permanent residence in an area that must have spanned at least 2,500/3,000 sq. kms if not more.

Ironically, 4 years later they were still bachelors and still being estimated at no more than 5, maybe 6 years of age and had become so accustomed to vehicles that they would just sit and look at you even if you alighted from the car but would saunter off if you exceeded their comfort zone.

I wonder if they survived the last season under their new concession owner.

Fulvio,

A lion's arrogance is something I've always found amazing.

I probably could write a book about our lion experiences!

Building a blind, and cutting grass and bushes to clear the way to the bait, in the morning.

Guess what?

A young male walks up, totally unnoticed, and lies under a tree 20 yards from us.

He just stayed there, while all the fuss and noise going on!

Enjoying the view!

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Fulvio,

A lion's arrogance is something I've always found amazing.

PH willy blome was known to play with lions when they were well fed. he had a 44 mag just in case but after a few close calls i do think he stopped to play... i think more than arrogant lions are strange and when wounded are telling you they are coming to you ... but maybe it is arrogance or pride who knows ...

quote:

Originally posted by medved:

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Fulvio,

A lion's arrogance is something I've always found amazing.

PH willy blome was known to play with lions when they were well fed. he had a 44 mag just in case but after a few close calls i do think he stopped to play... i think more than arrogant lions are strange and when wounded are telling you they are coming to you ... but maybe it is arrogance or pride who knows ...

Sometimes their arrogance puts them in very deep dodo!

The one I shot last year, chased one of trucks a few days before.

One morning, we saw a bushpig, and ran after it.

We saw this lion at some bones we put out for hyenas.

He started walking into the forest.

And we thought that is that.

We won’t see him again.

Then he changed his mind as he saw we were on foot.

He started walking towards us.

There was a large log from a dead tree may be 20 yards from us.

Behind that tree was a bushy.

Large enough to hide him.

The amazing part was he put that tree between us and him and kept coming.

As soon as he cleared the bush, he started his full charge.

As he was about to jump over the log, I fired.

In slow motion in the video, you can clearly see his eyes as he was in full charge.

As the bullet hit him, there was a total change in his looks.

He lowered his head, and changed direction, growling.

A few yards and he on the ground.

An insurance shot made sure he stayed there.

We were lucky, as it was in the open.

And at no time we felt we were in any danger.

Non of that bullshit Mark Sullivan used to sell.

Walking up to a half dead buffalo, shoot it as it charges right in the open.

And call it BLACK DEATH!

In our instance, I would have called it stupid lions that chase trucks, should not charge hunters on foot with rifles!

The lion I shot last year (well 2023) charged the bait car that was dispatched to refresh the bait with a buffalo quarter. After they hung the bait. We drove by that evening and he was still there. Too late to pursue him.

Plan for the next morning was to do a quick drive by and if he wasn't there build a blind. He was there, so we went in and he saw us. Watched us at about 30 yards. He never moved or vocalized. I shot him under his left eye. Seems like arrogance to me.

My friend Roy Vincent came within 6 inches of a lion’s claw!

Went very early in the morning to sit at a bait.

The hide was one of those pop up ones with very flimsy construction.

We get in and zipped up.

Me and Alan in the front.

Roy behind us.

As soon as the truck left, there was an almighty roar behind us.

We shouted.

That brought him even closer.

He started whacking the back of the hide with his claws.

Tearing parts of it very close to Roy’s back!

Alan fires a shot through the roof.

This brings in the truck.

We get in and away we go.

He was a few yards from us.

Ne t day we went into the hide in the afternoon.

He comes along and looks straight at us.

BANG!

End of story.

Lion attack in total darkness leaves you totally with no choice.

You can’t shoot at him because you don’t want to create a bigger problem!

On another occasion we followed a lion in the morning.

After a while we saw him lying under a bush, less than 15 yards.

He was looking straight at us, but there is no way to shoot except above his eyes.

I told Alan I could brain him, he said to wait for him to get up.

A few minutes later he did, luckily turning away from us.

I fired at him and he disappeared behind the bush and dropped.

Stone dead!

I'll stick by my claim that they are arrogant. We were driving along close to the end of the day and some buffalo were going to water. One of the trackers spotted a lion stalking the buffalo, so we bailed out and went to get a closer look. We got up within about 25 yards and he just laid there and looked at us. He was 5-5 1/2. Took some great pictures over my rifle which was on sticks and finally he tired of that game. Got up and walked away, stopped to pee, and looked back at us over his shoulder.

Traditionally in India, the call of the leopard was referred to as "Sawing".

A few weeks ago I was in Kabini Tiger reserve for 4 days and had the privilage of seeing a leopard on 2 days and heard him "Saw" 3 times. The guide said it was mating call seeking a female.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:
Leopards cough, grunt but not roar and each Leopard produces a "signature cough" which one can notice if it is a resident of the area, e.g the camp Leopard.

I think the roaring big cats have a specific bone in their throat and the "meaow" cats do not.

The tiger, lion, leopard, jaguar and snow leopard roar. The cougar, cheetah, clouded leopard etc. do not roar.

quote:

Originally posted by the Pom:
Scientists, being Scientists chose to call a log sawing cough as a roar because they can't think of a better name for it. Technically leopards are counted as a big cat because they"roar" while Cheetahs are considered to be a small cat because they do not. Size has nothing to do with it. Sounds weird, but they are Scientists!

Those floating bones are vestigial collar bones and have nothing to do with a roar.