Through the years I have regularly heard that when culling elephants, it is important to take the whole herd. The reason for this is said to be that do to their social structure, it is too detrimental to the mental health of the survivors.

I have also heard that herds are more aggresive than in the past do to indescriminate poaching.

If this is so, why is hunting tuskless cows acceptable? Doesn't it cause the same damage as both of the other practices mentioned above?

I am not taking a position on this, only looking for enlightened discussion.

I believe you're missing some facts in your premise as posed. It is my understanding that the necessity of killing the entire herd when conducting Elephant culls, is because the young cannot develop appropriate Elephant behavior once the adults are killed.

This is not the dynamic in play when a tuskless cow without a dependent calf is killed. It is why we ONLY take tuskless who are without a dependent calf. To do otherwise would be unethical, IMO.

But perhaps you can get a more enlightened view on the PETA website.

Mike, I truly am looking for information. I'll try and not take your last comment as a jab.

SBT,


I have heard the same as you on killing the whole herd versus just selected animals. There is a guy, I believe his name is Whyte who has talked about this, I 'll have to look through my stuff. As I remember, he is not necessarily a proponent of hunting per-se, but is more concerned about the entire health of the herd and understands that hunting/culling is a lesser evil than depredation of habitat and the results of it.

The taking out of who;le herds was primarily developed in Hwange Park by NP personnel, at least they are the most well known for this technique. There theory was that if only several of the herd was killed the remaining portion of the herd would spread their terror to other elephants in the park. That would in turn make the elephants more difficult to see by the photo tourists and possibly make them more aggressive to the tourists.

When the culling for tsetse fly control was going on in the valley, they found that some of the herds that were hunted hard became extremely aggressive and a danger to be around. Ian Nyaschens called them the Zambezi Ladies.

The taking of one individual from the herd is not likely to cause the same amount of terror in the herd but it most likely does provide some but no more than taking a bull from the same herd.

465H&H

Thanks 465.

Question: Are older bulls really ever full members of the herd or do they migrate through them, only being a member during mating seasons etc? The herds are matriarchal, are they not? If that is the case it would seem the bulls are transient.

Oooo, the horror stories.

Came across a calf about a year old that was abandoned. Pathetic. Whether its mother had been poached, either a tusked or tuskless cow, I had no way of knowing. Or whether its mother was a tuskless that had been whacked by a paying client.

But then all the cows are pregnant til the day they die. Can get somewhat gruesome for the weak!

Killing any one cow won't change much. If the matriarch is killed another but younger cow will take its place.

Really shouldn't use the ZIm culling program as anything but a major screw up. Killing off zillions of animals, every living thing in sight, under the stated purpose to eliminate the tsetse fly. What a brain trust that was.

Sort of like the Zim version of the US farm bill. Cattle at any cost. Yikes.

But I am wandering off the topic!

Zim's Wankie Nat Park Cull was different to the old Tsetse fly program of early Rhodesian days.
It would not surprise me if Cow hunting does increase aggression amongst the herds.

I think you'll find that most of the original research on correct elephant management and other related factors was done in east Africa rather than in southern Africa. (The guys in RSA & Rhodesia etc picked it up soon after)

The general consensus of opinion is that the correct way to cull elephant cows/calves is that entire family units be taken out at the same time. Usually with no more than 3 shooters and that they shoud try to achieve a time of something in the region of 3 minutes from first to last shot.

That same opinion says that taking individual females, whether tusked or tuskless is bad management practice....... in fact, I'm not aware of any qualified expert who has studied the subject that would argue otherwise.

Someone mwntioned White. I thik that refers to (Dr Or Prof?) Karyn White who discovered elephant communications and also studied their musth periods etc. She also wrote (going from memory here) Silent Thunder which tells the story of her research and is well worth a read.

I don't have my books with me because they're still in storage but a quick search here or on 24HRCF will show up several (often heated) debates on this subject and they will often give lists of titles where you'll find more info.

Hi-jack! Hey Steve , what the hell are you doing on AR? You should be painting, cutting the grass, unpacking books, furniture, etc.

Only got the keys yesterday mate........ first step is to get the builders in for new kitchen & bathroom etc and maybe knock down a wall or two........ only then can we move our gear into the house...... and then the fun begins with knocking everything else into shape.

That project will begin with me working on the (20m) barn and end with the field....... and I've no damn idea what to do with the field!

quote:

end with the field....... and I've no damn idea what to do with the field!

Grow stuff ????!!! Hops, barley ??? Maybe you could fence it and raise "free range Roan" for the chaps across the pond to come and er, ummh " hunt."

Steve,

Glad to hear that the house is coming along. I know that it's been a long time to be without a place of your own.

I did a search for the "Silent Thunder" and it appears as if the author is Katy Payne who did also discover infrasonic communication between elephants. Amazon carries it in paperback for @ $12.00 and hard cover versions are available for $10.00 - $20.00.

Scriptus

I guess I'll end up fencing it, planting a few more fruit trees in there and adding a few sheep or something........ as long as it eats grass and doesn't get sick too often, I'll be happy!

I'm glad to say I've done a deal with a neighbour where he maintains what appears to be bloody miles of grapevines in exchange for keeping the crop...... oh and I also get the occasional case of my own vino from time to time...... it's a good deal for me because I'd have no idea where to start when it comes to looking after grapevines!

Oday,

Yes, you're quite right. It was Katy Payne who discovered the rumbles and wrote Silent Thunder...... guess my memory isn't what it used to be........ if I'd had my books here, I'd have known. Thanks for putting me right...... As I said, the book is well worth a read.

You're also right about what a nuisance it's been to not have a place to call our own...... I can't express how good it'll feel to have all our own stuff around us again!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I think you'll find that most of the original research on correct elephant management and other related factors was done in east Africa rather than in southern Africa. (The guys in RSA & Rhodesia etc picked it up soon after)

The general consensus of opinion is that the correct way to cull elephant cows/calves is that entire family units be taken out at the same time. Usually with no more than 3 shooters and that they shoud try to achieve a time of something in the region of 3 minutes from first to last shot.

That same opinion says that taking individual females, whether tusked or tuskless is bad management practice....... in fact, I'm not aware of any qualified expert who has studied the subject that would argue otherwise.

Someone mwntioned White. I thik that refers to (Dr Or Prof?) Karyn White who discovered elephant communications and also studied their musth periods etc. She also wrote (going from memory here) Silent Thunder which tells the story of her research and is well worth a read.

I don't have my books with me because they're still in storage but a quick search here or on 24HRCF will show up several (often heated) debates on this subject and they will often give lists of titles where you'll find more info.

I am not convinced that taking a tuskless or tusked cow out of a herd is a major problem but I am certainly no expert on this matter. I am also aware that some elephant experts think it can be a problem. I believe Don Heath is one of those. I havn't heard their reasons as yet. Perhaps he will jump in here and educate us.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I am not convinced that taking a tuskless or tusked cow out of a herd is a major problem but I am certainly no expert on this matter. I am also aware that some elephant experts think it can be a problem. I believe Don Heath is one of those. I havn't heard their reasons as yet. Perhaps he will jump in here and educate us.

465H&H

I doubt there's a single qualified expert (who has studied the subject) that would/does support the taking of individual cows as part of a management control programme.

Steve-

Management control program for what? Overpopulation of elephants? No. Overpopulation of genetically recessive tuskless elephants? Yes.

Don't loose sight of the objective of the exercise.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Steve-

Management control program for what? Overpopulation of elephants? No. Overpopulation of genetically recessive tuskless elephants? Yes.

Don't loose sight of the objective of the exercise.

I don't know elephants-but the question ALWAYS is what are you managing For?

There is no such thing as "a single proper" management plan because two sites may be managing for completely different objectives.

SSR

Shakari,

Instead of telling us what others feel, please explain "why' they feel that way.

465H&H

Mike

What properly conducted studies have identified a lack of tusks as a particularly undesireable trait (and why?) or for that matter recommended removal of individual tuskless elephants out of family units?

There's also the question of how does one reliably and absolutely identify a tuskless cow without dependent young compared to a tuskless cow with dependent young? - Just because a cow doesn't have a calf following immediately behind doesn't mean she doesn't have a calf elsewhere........ often a considerable distance away.

I personally don't agree with the sport hunting of any female elephants under any circumstances whatsoever but I do appreciate a lot of hunters are keen on the hunting of tuskless or indeed tusked cows but (IMO) to dress it up as management of any kind is doing the greater cause of responsible sport hunting a major disservice.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Shakari,

Instead of telling us what others feel, please explain "why' they feel that way.

465H&H

I haven't said how people feel at all...... my point is that the acknowledged and qualified experts all agree that the culling of females & calves should be by taking out entire family units etc and that the taking of individual females is not good management practice.

I've also pointed out that all my property, including books are currently in storage and unavailable to me and consequently can't give names & titles etc etc.

I've also pointed out that a search here or on 24 HRCF will show previous posts by a variety of people (including me) where names and titles etc are quoted......

Seek and ye shall find.

Shakari,

I have seen info on what you say pertaining to culling of herds in Hwange but not of any research that has been done to say those recommendations pertain to the taking of individual cows from non-culling operations but from general hunting. I would like to see why the experts feel this way in non-culling Park situations. I believe that Don heath is of this opinion but haven't seen why. That is why I had hope that he would chime in.

In all due respect, you are the one that brought up what the experts support or don't support. Please don't expect me to make your case for you. I suspect you don't know or you would have stated their reasons but I grant I may be wrong.

465H&H

Oh Steve, you're such a flirt. And now an expert on cow Eles, too. Can you expound on the effects of recessive genetics as it relates to tuskless cow Eles for us?

That's redundant and rhetorical, but Steve will answer anyway. He always does. Wait for it.

465

I think you'll find that Don's beliefs are probably the same as the other people I quote in posts I've made in previous threads....... and if you search for them, you'll find my comments that states my personal beliefs (same as posted here) and names a fairly extensive list of titles and authors that also say it's not good management practice...... I'm using a (next to bloody useless) dongle to get online at the moment and it's far too slow for me to do the searches myself. If you want the info, you'll have to find it yourself.

Mike...... I'm no expert (on anything) and have never claimed to be but I've spent a fair bit of time watching elephants and reading about them and am simply pointing out that the general consensus of opinion amongst the qualified fundis is as I've previously posted.

I've often (previously) said that I don't personally agree with the sport hunting of female elephants but I don't criticise others for doing so...... what they choose to do is their business. - All I'm doing is saying that the general consensus of qualified opinion also says it's not a good thing and those opinions isn't anything new. It's been established for decades.

Quite honestly, I don't understand why you guys are getting your knickers in such a twist simply because I don't agree with your beliefs.

I love to see anything on TV about elephants, and their behavior. Loved my one tuskless hunt, and can't wait to do it again. I didn't think that taking it bothered the herd dynamics, as it was not a dominant member.

As an interesting side note, Bob and Joyce Poole have just finished a movie about the Gorangosa Park elephants in Moz titled "War Elephants". Was offered through the Carr Foundation and Nat Geo. It documents the ultra aggressive behavior of the surviving eles from the civil war in that country, and how they are trying to effect the behavior of the herd.

Looking at the video, almost half the cows that are pictured are tuskless; said to be as a result of the slaughtering of all tusked eles for the ivory. It was sold to get more weapons to continue fighting.

quote:

Can you expound on the effects of recessive genetics as it relates to tuskless cow Eles for us?

Just curious here, but has anyone done any genetic testing? If an animal, unless Elephants are completely different than all other mammals, obtains 50% of its individual genetic make-up from each of its parents, why are cows the only ones that are tuskless?

Even in a herd comprised of nothing but tuskless cows, if they bred with a tusked bull, then there should be a few calves born that will/would develope tusks. Or do only the bull calves develope tusks?

Unless the tusked bull is carrying a recessive gene for the tuskless mutation there should be a percentage of calves, either sex produced that would have tusks.

quote:

why are cows the only ones that are tuskless?

There are tuskless bulls out there too. Very few though, compared to cows.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Can you expound on the effects of recessive genetics as it relates to tuskless cow Eles for us?

Just curious here, but has anyone done any genetic testing? If an animal, unless Elephants are completely different than all other mammals, obtains 50% of its individual genetic make-up from each of its parents, why are cows the only ones that are tuskless?

Even in a herd comprised of nothing but tuskless cows, if they bred with a tusked bull, then there should be a few calves born that will/would develope tusks. Or do only the bull calves develope tusks?

Unless the tusked bull is carrying a recessive gene for the tuskless mutation there should be a percentage of calves, either sex produced that would have tusks.

Crazy,
I don't know of any genetic research done on elephants to do with the tuskless gene but that doesn't mean that there isn't any. Some bulls are born without tusk sockets. I have taken one, seen another and seen pictures of a couple of more. By the way an elephant can be tuskless because it doesn't have tusk sockets, a true tuskless, or because it lost its tusks at some point. I don't think the genetic makeup is a simple double recessive trait. If it were you wouldn't see some elephants with only one tusk socket.



A large Matetsi cow with only one tusk socket, visible on the upper side.


465H&H

Ann, 5465 Many Thanks for the input. Now to swing this a little farther afield, animals, either sex with the sockets and not growing tusks is one thing. Animals with out tusk sockets, is a skeletal anomaly, to a basic design that is hundreds of thousands if not a few million years old.

One question sort of. Is their a greater number of tuskless elephants now than say 25 years ago, or 50 years ago? Is the increase(?) in tuskless animals due to selective killing, only tusked animals, which would/should lean more toward genetic influence on tuskless animal reproducing, or is their a case of evolution in action, changing the basic skeletal components of the animals?

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Ann, 5465 Many Thanks for the input. Now to swing this a little farther afield, animals, either sex with the sockets and not growing tusks is one thing. Animals with out tusk sockets, is a skeletal anomaly, to a basic design that is hundreds of thousands if not a few million years old.

One question sort of. Is their a greater number of tuskless elephants now than say 25 years ago, or 50 years ago? Is the increase(?) in tuskless animals due to selective killing, only tusked animals, which would/should lean more toward genetic influence on tuskless animal reproducing, or is their a case of evolution in action, changing the basic skeletal components of the animals?

The general consensus of opinion in Africa that I have heard is that the percentage of tuskless animals have increased due to selective harvest if tusked animals. Whether that is true or not I don't know. I don't know of any research to support that theory.

465H&H

quote:

The general consensus of opinion in Africa that I have heard is that the percentage of tuskless animals have increased due to selective harvest if tusked animals. Whether that is true or not I don't know. I don't know of any research to support that theory.

It may be just regional genetics, some areas seem to have more tuskless. The guys in the bush season after season like Buzz, Ivan, Charl, Mart and the rest of our resident PH's have will more knowlege on this. But I have seen plenty of mature tuskless living in Parks that have had no hunting pressure in a very long time.

Conversly, we do not see hornless rhinos developing do we?

quote:

Conversly, we do not see hornless rhinos developing do we?

That again would be either genetics, or as with elephants showing up with no socket for that or those teeth, possibly evolutionary.

Nature/evolution has always been pretty set in product designs and when something worked it was left that way for eternity.

I have some very good video of a tuskless bull Ele I had an opportunity to take last September. Many of you watched the footage on TAA this past February. I did not take him because
1. We were on the concession border and if wounded and he went into the other concession - in the hands of the Chinese - we could not follow
2. A game scout who implied a bribe might be required to shoot him on the border
We watched as he crossed the riverbed border back into our concession but we never saw him again.

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:

quote:

The general consensus of opinion in Africa that I have heard is that the percentage of tuskless animals have increased due to selective harvest if tusked animals. Whether that is true or not I don't know. I don't know of any research to support that theory.

It may be just regional genetics, some areas seem to have more tuskless. The guys in the bush season after season like Buzz, Ivan, Charl, Mart and the rest of our resident PH's have will more knowlege on this. But I have seen plenty of mature tuskless living in Parks that have had no hunting pressure in a very long time.

Conversly, we do not see hornless rhinos developing do we?

Rhino obviously have never had a gene for hornless. The selective hunting for tusked elphants would not have created the gene, it was already there, it only allowed it to prosper.

465H&H

quote:

Rhino obviously have never had a gene for hornless. The selective hunting for tusked elphants would not have created the gene, it was already there, it only allowed it to prosper.

Very likely.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
The selective hunting for tusked elphants would not have created the gene, it was already there, it only allowed it to prosper.

465H&H

And...in the parks where it is prevalent...these populations may have rebounded from heavily ivory poached populations making the trait more wide-spread. The primary tuskless gene is also thought to be sex linked. Tusklessness may also have a developmental form accounting for the very small number of tuskless bulls.

I can live with the genetics being an unknown contributing factor for the tuskless numbers. What about the missing tusk sockets, actually tooth sockets. Wouldn't that be an evolutionary change?

Bone is a living tissue and remodels over time. Sockets without tusks may remodel to appear that there were never sockets in the adult skull. Horses that sustain dental trauma at a young age and have the adult tooth bud removed don't retain a socket. In fact with age...if you did not know one had been there...you could not tell it by examining the mandibular or maxillary incisive bones.

So in other words...by the time of harvest the socket may have remodeled to appear as if one never existed.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Bone is a living tissue and remodels over time. Sockets without tusks may remodel to appear that there were never sockets in the adult skull. Horses that sustain dental trauma at a young age and have the adult tooth bud removed don't retain a socket. In fact with age...if you did not know one had been there...you could not tell it by examining the mandibular or maxillary incisive bones.

So in other words...by the time of harvest the socket may have remodeled to appear as if one never existed.

While possible in some cases, I have seen six to ten year old elephants as well as suckling calves with out tusk sockets. The pinched in face (no tusk socket) is seen in all age classes. It doesn't seem likely that the bone sockets would be reabsorbed that quickly.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
I can live with the genetics being an unknown contributing factor for the tuskless numbers. What about the missing tusk sockets, actually tooth sockets. Wouldn't that be an evolutionary change?

Most likely a gene mutation that has increased in the population due to selective pressure. Man caused evolution?

465H&H