http://citizen.co.za/883657/co....Vla8nE0A6jg.twitter

Looks like some of the existing court cases are going up in smoke!

Good!

Now may be they can concentrate in getting rid of the poachers!

Be interesting to see what happens now..... this is only for domestic sales so although rhino horn can now be traded in SA, they still cannot be exported/imported/traded elsewhere in the world..

What now needs to happen is for other countries to do the same so that international trade can resume. - If it does then the poachers will go out of business but if not, I suspect things won't change very much.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Be interesting to see what happens now..... this is only for domestic sales so although rhino horn can now be traded in SA, they still cannot be exported/imported/traded elsewhere in the world..

What now needs to happen is for other countries to do the same so that international trade can resume. - If it does then the poachers will go out of business but if not, I suspect things won't change very much.

I agree 100%

I don't see how internal trade of rhino horn will do any good as all the buyers are overseas. Maybe they can now fly to SA and eat or drink some of it! But guess its a step in the right direction!

Game ranchers need to ranch rhino or the species possibly won't survive. Game ranchers need to meet costs and make a profit or they will do something else. So the legal trade makes a lot of sense there. I don't think it makes as much sense when folks talk of "flooding the market" and decreasing the demand, because the demand is just too damn huge. 3D printed horns using keratin and rhino DNA which are being done overseas might be able to flood the market. At the same time, the antis cry about "escalating" the trade, but the illegal trade is already there so how can this escalate anything. All in all, a good move.

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Reply

I still say they should poison all the confiscated rhino horn and put it back into the market. Once people start dying from using it, the demand will dry up.

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Game ranchers need to ranch rhino or the species possibly won't survive. Game ranchers need to meet costs and make a profit or they will do something else.

So in essence game ranchers are farming rhino only for the financial returns and if it wasn't for the money they wouldn't give a shit if the species survived or not.

It proves in a way that game ranchers are not conservationists at heart but financially induced conservationists provided their "vocation" generates the desired reward - similar to the modern day preachers.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Game ranchers need to ranch rhino or the species possibly won't survive. Game ranchers need to meet costs and make a profit or they will do something else.

So in essence game ranchers are farming rhino only for the financial returns and if it wasn't for the money they wouldn't give a shit if the species survived or not.

It proves in a way that game ranchers are not conservationists at heart but financially induced conservationists provided their "vocation" generates the desired reward - similar to the modern day preachers.

I don't really see where you are going with this...

Does it matter whether the rancher does it only for financial gain ? NO. The only thing that matters is the result. Farming with Rhinos = good for conserving them. Period. And if someone makes a lot of money out of it -- Great , good for him , it will inspire more people to follow suite.

Do all hunters hunt with conservation in mind ? NO. They like hunting , but by adding value to animals and legally hunting them they are helping the conservation cause.

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I don't really see where you are going with this...

Projects of this nature should be undertaken and funded by the various Wildlife Conservation agencies who employ professionals on a salary and not by private individuals who are in the game just lucrative personal gains.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

I don't really see where you are going with this...

Projects of this nature should be undertaken and funded by the various Wildlife Conservation agencies who employ professionals on a salary and not by private individuals who are in the game just lucrative personal gains.

Once again , So what ? The end result is what matters. You want to take something away from the free market system and give it to a top heavy NGO -- all because someone is making money .....? really ?

Why don't we stop all private owned hunting companies in Tanzania and have a government run organization ( backed by " Wildlife conservation agencies " ) do all the hunting or take care of the areas ? Hold on , they tried that , didn't they ?

Wildlife needs to pay its own way.

If it wasn't for people ranching with Rhinos , the picture would have been a lot more dire at the moment.

There is no reason why both cannot exist?

For all of South Africa's issues, they do have the most white rhino still alive.

If the only ones still left were on government land, the loss of genetic diversity would be likely fatal.

Like the zoos and governments have done so well with the Northern white rhino?

[/QUOTE]

Once again , So what ? The end result is what matters. You want to take something away from the free market system and give it to a top heavy NGO -- all because someone is making money .....? really ?

Why don't we stop all private owned hunting companies in Tanzania and have a government run organization ( backed by " Wildlife conservation agencies " ) do all the hunting or take care of the areas ? Hold on , they tried that , didn't they ?

Wildlife needs to pay its own way.

If it wasn't for people ranching with Rhinos , the picture would have been a lot more dire at the moment.[/QUOTE]

Spot on Jan.

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Originally posted by Jan Dumon:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

I don't really see where you are going with this...

Projects of this nature should be undertaken and funded by the various Wildlife Conservation agencies who employ professionals on a salary and not by private individuals who are in the game just lucrative personal gains.

Once again , So what ? The end result is what matters. You want to take something away from the free market system and give it to a top heavy NGO -- all because someone is making money .....? really ?

Why don't we stop all private owned hunting companies in Tanzania and have a government run organization ( backed by " Wildlife conservation agencies " ) do all the hunting or take care of the areas ? Hold on , they tried that , didn't they ?

Wildlife needs to pay its own way.

If it wasn't for people ranching with Rhinos , the picture would have been a lot more dire at the moment.

I should have been more specific when mentioning Wildlife Conservation Agencies in a somewhat generic term and giving you the opportunity to twist it to suit your interpretation. Read it therefore as International Wildlife Agencies like WWF, GTZ, WCS, to name several who are more likely to closely monitor the distribution and utilization of funds.

Nowhere did I say, or remotely suggest such projects be handled by local Government Departments which we already know would be doomed to failure, here in TZ as in any other African state, RSA included.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by Jan Dumon:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

I don't really see where you are going with this...

Projects of this nature should be undertaken and funded by the various Wildlife Conservation agencies who employ professionals on a salary and not by private individuals who are in the game just lucrative personal gains.

Once again , So what ? The end result is what matters. You want to take something away from the free market system and give it to a top heavy NGO -- all because someone is making money .....? really ?

Why don't we stop all private owned hunting companies in Tanzania and have a government run organization ( backed by " Wildlife conservation agencies " ) do all the hunting or take care of the areas ? Hold on , they tried that , didn't they ?

Wildlife needs to pay its own way.

If it wasn't for people ranching with Rhinos , the picture would have been a lot more dire at the moment.

I should have been more specific when mentioning Wildlife Conservation Agencies in a somewhat generic term and giving you the opportunity to twist it to suit your interpretation. Read it therefore as International Wildlife Agencies like WWF, GTZ, WCS, to name several who are more likely to closely monitor the distribution and utilization of funds.

Nowhere did I say, or remotely suggest such projects be handled by local Government Departments which we already know would be doomed to failure, here in TZ as in any other African state, RSA included.

You are absolutely right Fujo , you never said that , I did , and so creating the totally opposite scenario to having entrepeneurs handle the situation . It's worked for Rhino conservation in South Africa so far. Dr. Ian Player was right when he said that Rhinos should be put in the hands of private game farms to give them value. Smart man he was..

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

I don't really see where you are going with this...

Projects of this nature should be undertaken and funded by the various Wildlife Conservation agencies who employ professionals on a salary and not by private individuals who are in the game just lucrative personal gains.

Now where is it I've heard the similar agrgument?

Oh yes when tHe antis say the when animal populations need managing it should be done by a professionally paid marksman not sport hunters.

The organisations you speak of are generally anti hunting and given the mess they have made of their involvement in Kenya Botswana etc they are the last people I would entrust the rhinos fate to.

K

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

I don't really see where you are going with this...

Projects of this nature should be undertaken and funded by the various Wildlife Conservation agencies who employ professionals on a salary and not by private individuals who are in the game just lucrative personal gains.

Then why haven't these "Wildlife Conservation Agencies" taken it upon themselves to do this and save the rhinos? Nothing has or is stopping them from doing it.

Leave it to private ranchers in RSA, Zimbabwe, Namibia, and Botswana to save the rhinos. Isn't it neat how the free enterprise system rewards those that actual do something! I hope those greedy ranchers get filthy rich for saving the rhinos!

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

I don't really see where you are going with this...

Projects of this nature should be undertaken and funded by the various Wildlife Conservation agencies who employ professionals on a salary and not by private individuals who are in the game just lucrative personal gains.

"Wildlife Conservation agencies" = government and bureaucracy. When has that ever improved a situation?

http://www.traffic.org/home/20...e-international.html



South Africa will not seek legalisation of the international trade in rhino horn


Pretoria, South Africa, 22nd April


The South African government has approved the recommendation of a Committee of Inquiry that the country not pursue the legalisation of international trade in rhino horn. The South African Cabinet approved the recommendation made by the Committee of Inquiry on the feasibility of trading in rhino horns that "the current mode of keeping the country’s stock levels be kept, as opposed to the trading in rhino horns".

TRAFFIC Executive Director Steven Broad said that, with rhino poaching figures still remaining unacceptably high, the decision made by the South African government is a shrewd and realistic one. "There is still significant uncertainty as to how illegal markets would be affected by any legal trade in terms of supply–demand dynamics and no specific proposals for how a secure trade channel might operate had been made."

Broad stressed that the focus now should remain on addressing the rampant poaching of rhinos and trafficking in rhino horns, and commended the Cabinet’s endorsement of South Africa’s integrated strategic management approach to resolving the problem through security, community empowerment, biological management, responsive legislative provisions and demand management.

"While poaching figures remain high, a slight decrease in rhino poaching in South Africa was apparent in 2015, and perhaps the authorities are having some impact on the ground. If South Africa continues redoubling these efforts, we may well soon see the light at the end of this very dark tunnel," he said. "TRAFFIC stands ready to assist the South African government in this regard."

South Africa earlier this year announced the official number of rhinos illegally killed in the country during 2015. The figure of 1,175 represented a slight drop on the 1,215 record total in 2014. However, overall rhino poaching figures for southern Africa total a record high for the continent, with the decrease in South Africa being more than offset by significant increases in neighbouring Zimbabwe and Namibia.

Broad stressed that a region-wide solution must be found, with collaborative measures that will more widely tackle the illegal wildlife trade in southern Africa as a whole, while also working with governments of the primary consumer nations. “The Southern African Development Community Law Enforcement and Anti-Poaching Strategy, SADC LEAP, provides an excellent framework for this collaboration and TRAFFIC is committed to supporting the countries concerned to ensure its effective implementation.”

South Africa will host the 17th meeting of the Conference of the Parties to the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES CoP17) from 24 September to 5 October 2016. "We hope that Conference can now be a rallying point at which the international community can support and assist South Africa and the other rhino range States in finally ending this global crisis," he said.

For further information, please contact:
Sabri Zain, Director of Policy, TRAFFIC - e-mail:Sabri.Zain@traffic.org Tel: +44 1223 277427

I may have missed it, but did anyone say why someone would want to buy rhino horn (shavings or whole) from farmers if it (or products made from it) cannot be sold internationally?

Bill Quimby

I guess I miss the significance of this development. As I read this, if a South African wants to, they can legally sell to someone in South Africa (domestic sale). If that individual wants to sell to someone outside of SA, it is forbidden.

Is there a domestic, cultural market that this ruling serves? Do South Africans use rhino horn for medicinal, artistic, or cultural applications at the scale where this has any effect?

Or does it just provide cover for a South African to sell to - say, a visiting Asian medicinal products buyer who travels to South Africa. It seems to me that it just shifts the legal burden to the buyer who then smuggles the product out of the country to meet the cultural historical demand there? It seems like it wouldn't necessarily reduce the demand in Asia - just reduces the legal prohibition (and resulting consequences) to the South African domestic seller, who then can sell with impunity without having to pay off law enforcement - increasing their profits.

IF there were an international move to de-criminalize the horn, it seems like the conservation benefits COULD accrue, but to me this just looks like a ruse.

Convince me. Educate me. I'm skeptical.

A well conjured SCAM if you ask me!

What's the bet that some smart guy employs the services of a chinese expert and sets up a processing plant where the horns get broken down into something which does not remotely resemble one nor will any reference as such be mentioned; e.g. an elixir, pills/tablets, gels, etc. and re-exported as a finished product under a brand name which will be made known to the consumer.

That is an old story, from last year. The latest, at least as far as the international trade goes can be found on

http://news.nationalgeographic...-South-Africa-CITES/

A legal internal trade won't generate a lot of revenue, but every cent counts when you look at the cost of APUs to protect them.

I sure wish it were legal to sell legally-acquired ivory. My ellie tusks would make a nice inheritance for my son after I'm gone.

BH63