Huntamerica forum had a Rigby vs. Rem post going and I've followed it closely. I'm still in shopping mode for a DGR, and was looking at a CZ550 .375 H&H... Is a .416 more appropriate? What about the diff between Rem, Rigby, and the venerable Mr. Hoffman's version? One guy over on Huntamerica said the .416 recoil chased him off. I'm a Wby guy myself and can handle the .300 fine.... Is the recoil that bad? Just fishing for opinions from this here learned crew. Thanks.

If recoil is NOT a major consideration, then the .416 out performs both the .375 and the .458WinMag. The .375 makes a more suitable gun for many folks due to the excessive recoil of the .416; it is a noticeable step up. While is it a consideration, with proper weight and barrel length, it should not be a problem. I shoot mine off the bench and I still have my retinas attached and I have never been touched by my scope.

Another .416 version to consider is the Dakota. It fits a regular action with near Ribgy handload performance. The Dakota is lower pressure than the .416Rem with more case capacity and more velocity potential (if desired). 400gr @ 2400fps + is no problem.

[ 07-19-2002, 22:44: Message edited by: Zero Drift ]

The 416 is definately a step up in recoil compared to a 375H&H, but it is not that bad if you are talking about a 400gr bullet at 2400fps out of a reasonable rifle (9+lbs, stock that fits, etc). According to the recoil calculator, the recoil should be comparable to a 375 RUM, Saeed's 375/404 or the 375 Dakota.

My 416 Taylor must have a fast barrel, because I can get an honest 2400fps out of it with reasonable pressures. I shoot it from the bench all the time and although you start to notice it after a while, it does not make you "punchy" like some of the other real bad boys like a 458 Lott etc.

I haven't had the pleasure to test it on game yet, but from what I've witnessed just shooting it at 20L pails of water, its impact is significantly greater than my 375 H&H.

Canuck

The .416 anything is a definate step up in performance on game. As I've said before, recoil can be effectively managed to levels far far beyond what a .416 anything can dish out. Go try a Ruger M77 in .416 Rigby. It's pretty good right out of the box. You won't be hurt!-Rob

I shot my Win. 70 Saf. Exp. today off the bench now that I mounted a Leupold 1.5-5x in quick detach mounts which has added a pound to the rifle and found it very comfortable, that stock is great with the low mounted scope so so with the irons. Much more comfortable that a slug gun I feel, no need for a brake. I will use it with 350 gr. bullets for kudu nyala zebra warthog and impala next May.

Cengel,
If you shoot your .300 Wea. well, I think you'll find a .416 quite managable. The recoil is there but the recoil velocity is not. Now, a stoked up Rigby loading or a factory .416 Weatherby would be another story. All in all, I'd say the Remington version is the most practical choice but, as Zero Drift touched on, the Dakota casing may well be the best balanced for the 400 grain bullet @ 2,400fps plateau.

I was playing around with some software the other day, calculating recoil, and punched in the numbers for various guns and loads. When I got around to entering the data for my .416 Remington Magnum, the output indicated, basically, that my shoulder would be dislocated, I'd be thrown back on my ass, the gun would fly out of my hands, I'd feel pain 47 times worse than knee surgery or child birth, and... well, you get the idea. However, even though I'm something of a "computer guy" and do tend to put a lot of stock in calculated data... I had to wonder about the results this time. I do NOT experience such horrific recoil as described by the data from the software I was using. I don't find the recoil from my .416 Remington Magnum "that bad." I've shot smaller chamberings in lighter guns that were MUCH worse! So, recoil really IS "subjective." With heavy bullets and normal loads, I don't think the recoil from a .416 Remington Magnum is unmanageable at all.

Russ

I do not own a 375 H&H yet But I have a .416 Rigby and load 410 gr woodleigh's to 2550-2600 fps and the recoil can be mastered. My biggest bore rifle prior to this was a 45/70 loaded with 400 gr. The game I have shot with my Rigby (thin skinned stuff) I would have to say was put down more spectacularly than any other rifle I have shot to date.

I think you will enjoy a .416.

.416 Rem. and Rigby are very much like when it comes to performance...if you like the Rem. then go for it, if you are a nostalgic like me and worry about pressure, go for the Rigby.. ( Hell, the .416 Rigby IS Africa!! )

I can't tell much difference in the recoil of a 375 with 300 gr. bullets and a 416 with 400 gr. bullets..they feel the same to me...I can tell a lot of difference when I go up to the say 458 Lott...

The 416 outshines the old 375 any way you cut it..I have both and probably always will, but I never kid myself that the 375 can better a 416 in any way...IMO.

I like the 416 Rem because it can be had on a smaller, lighter action and makes up into a trimmer handier rifle, and thats the only reason..

There is a noticable difference in recoil with the 375 and 416, 4331 ft-lbs compared to 5115 ft-lbs, nearly 20%.

And you can tell the difference!

I still believe one should get a 375 first, and work up from there if desired.

Will

416, hands down. Which ever flavor you want is a like saying "oh, french vanilla is better than old fashioned bean in vanilla"
if you like, you have a nice array of choices.
The rigby and the rem being the easist to find (rounds for that is) and then the rest. You CAN load a rigby to weatherby, but the rigby is what all the others are measured by.
Personally, I LUCKED into my 416 rem. If it had been a rigby, I am telling you, it would have been the difference between a pick 3 lotto win, and a powerball. I LOVE my 416 rem, but if I had a zero dollar choice between 2 rifles, it would be rigby all the way.
Start with 300s at 2850, goto 350s at 2600, and end up with 400 at 2400. It'll anchor anything you hit right.

Jeffe

I have a .375 H&H and a .416 Remington Magnum on identical recievers (P-14) and stocks. The barrels are: .375 a 24" medium sporter configuration and the .416 a 26" heavy sporter. Both are ported. I load both of them to 5% below maximum loads. The .375 hits me harder when firing 300 grain bullets than the .416 firing 400 grain bullets. I think it is because I use a slower powder in the .416 and it is a little heavier in the barrel. To me, neither one of them recoils excessively. In fact, I have a .300 Wichester Magnum on a M98 reciever, which is also ported, which recoils harder than either one of them, when firing 200 grain bullets.

I have a .375 H&H and a .416 Remington, and I like both of them. The .416 really isn't that tough to shoot and it is more gun, but some folks will find the recoil to be objectionable.

You need to remember something: You don't need a .416 to successfully hunt lions or cape buffalo. The old .375 H&H has been comfortably and succesfully used on all of the world's big game time and time again for ninety years, and scores of buffalo plus hundreds of plainsgame animals, big cats, and so forth will be taken with it during the current safari season alone. I'd gladly hunt buffalo with it any day of the week, and just about anything else for that matter.

So contrary to a groundswell of inuendo, the Three-Six-Bits is plenty of rifle, especially if .416 recoil is a barrier to good shooting.

AD

Really good marksmanship is the key to having a successful and uneventful hunt for any dangerous game, regardless of caliber chosen. Whenever you can't place your shots in the kill zone 100% of the time you have past your own recoil threshhold and it's time to drop down to something you can manage 100% of the time.
Despite what my good friend Allen and many others here feel, I do not consider the 375 to be much more than barely adequate in good hands on elephant and buffalo as well. That's my opinion and it's worth just what it cost you to read it! If I were an aspiring buffalo and/or elephant hunter I'd allow myself all of the time and necessary practice to master the 416.

Just a few questions and thoughts I'd like to throw out if you don't mind. I happened to read I believe Col. Cooper discussing this a few months back in G&A and if my memory is correct he stated tht the .416 Rem. seemed to be the best penetrator of the .416s. It might have been Elmer Keith that said this though too. Any way for those of you that have shot animals with .375 or .416 or what ever for that matter how do the .416s penetrate? Also for someone like me that may wish to get a DG rifle and doesn't have one already would the .416 be a better way to go over .375 given that I seem to be bothered less by big bores than the small/med. bores(my .308 kicks like a mule, but a 45-70 is not too bad.)Like some one else posted I would love a CZ 550 Safari in .416 Rem. since you could get another round in the mag, and give up nothing in performance. Having said this I do prefer non-belted cartridges if possible. Lastly if one needed to purchase .416 Rem. in Africa would that be more difficult than Rigby?

Cengel,

The CZ 550 are very light weight rifles with a really bad stock design. I own a CZ 550 in 458 x 404 improved but I restocked it with a brno 602 mcmillan, rebarreled, and all I kept was the action!

I find the 416 to kick alot more than a 375 but I love the caliber. Even with a dakota stock it kicks like a son of a gun in the factory weight barrels. (My dakota/remington is not even eight pounds with 1.5 x 5 scope and rings). Nice to carry. Nice to look at, but not a rifle I can shoot quickly. I have to really jam it into the shot pocket and slam my cheek weld down and grit my teeth, but it will shoot 1 - 1/4 inch groups with the excellent remington factory (swift) ammo.

At the very least be prepared to buy a new stock.

Andy

John, I'll certainly conceed that the .375 H&H is listed as the MINIMUM caliber for thick-skinned dangerous game by most African governments, which is a not so subtle commentary about its effectiveness on such animals compared to the bigger cartridges!

AD

The cz 550 .416 Rigby holds 4in mag & 1 up the spout for a 5 round capacity. I think many other rigby's only hold 3 in the mag (Ruger).

Gentleman

I had the pleasure to test my new CZ550 Rigby this sunday!

The gun is at 10.5 lbs with a kick-stop, straigt standard CZ550 stock.
I shot the Norma factory load with 400grain Swift A-Frames. I had the factory recoil-pad on it, my Pachmayr F990 will be delivered sometime in August.

I really was a little bit afraid (actually VERY afraid) of what was waiting for me in the recoil department!
Due to the EAW scope-mounts didn't arived in time, I went to the range without the scope - turned out to be a good start.

I started hunting with a 9.3x64 Brenneke, was a tough start but after a while I saw the game falling at the shot through the scope - so one gets used to it.

When I fired the first shot of the Rigby - shure had sweaty hands - it was pleasently unspectacular!
The muzzle raised about 2" high and the shoulder went back about 8".
Didn't hurt at all, and the shot was on the boar target 35m away too!

The second shot was a little bit different - I was more relaxed than - the muzzle lift was about 5" but the shoulder went back a little bit less at 6" - the shot was exactly where I had aimed, so that time I definatle wanted more!

The third shot was the same as the 2nd shot but better on target (concentraded on the right spot for the boar).

My two friends who took one shot each said it was not to bad and can be handled.
My one friend who will get a 375H&H on a Blaser R93 thinks the 375 might hit harder than the 416!

Finally I am very happy with the CZ550 in 416 Rigby, I only have to watch my right thumb not slapping my cheek, but compared to the 9.3x64 (shot that 7 years ago), I would rather shoot my CZ550 Rigby than my former 9.3x64 Steyr.

The difference of the 416 to the 375H&H class is the long shove of the Rigby compared to a fast and hard beat of the round with the higher pressure and faster powder.

Franz