a person i know personaly came back from south african limpopo prov he shot a big lion and a lioness same day in 20 mint,he was offered a tiger&white lion around $30,000 each,also no limitation of days,can shoot in 3 days or less.he will have his taxidermy done in 8 months and will receive them legally,ur coments?.

Obviously a ranch hunt and fresh out of the can in this case. Personally I cant see it and find it distasteful. That is however my opinion and as such only counts as applied to me. I dont like it but who am I to tell someone else he cant do it? If he considers it a trophy and is happy with the way things went down let him enjoy it. Why ruin it for him. Unless he is truly clueless he has to have some idea of what it was. Just try to refrain from saying anything committal about it at all. Good luck walking that thin line. I would love to hear the conversations with parks and usfws on importing Ziegfreed and roys pets. A talk about importing a tiger and white lion would be a very interesting conversation to listen in on.

I have seven trophy turkeys, two decent guinea fowls, three feral chickens, and one scrubber goat available for a safari hunt.

All can be shot in less than 3 days by a skilled marksman.

Price on request.

He can't have the rhodesian ridgeback, though. Can't have the pigs on the other side of the fence either, my neighbour is very particular about them.

Pickup at the airport included in price.

quote:

Originally posted by Philip A.:
I have seven trophy turkeys, two decent guinea fowls, three feral chickens, and one scrubber goat available for a safari hunt.

All can be shot in less than 3 days by a skilled marksman.

Price on request.

He can't have the rhodesian ridgeback, though. Can't have the pigs on the other side of the fence either, my neighbour is very particular about them.

Pickup at the airport included in price.

quote:

he shot a big lion and a lioness same day in 20 mint,he was offered a tiger&white lion around $30,000 each,also no limitation of days,can shoot in 3 days or less.

Where is PHASA to clean up the industry. This South Africans will never learn. ONLY $$$$$$ speaks

Seloushunter

I shot a lion and a lioness in the same day in less than 5 minutes

MBB,

It's a Governmental issue mate. PHASA are dead against it and have been for years and the Govt are trying to clean it up......... I've gotta say, they're about as much use as a one legged man at an arse kicking party, but hopefully thay'll stamp it out eventually.

I wonder if the shooter got a buy one get one free deal like most other supermarkets are offering nowadays!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I shot a lion and a lioness in the same day in less than 5 minutes

Please tell us about it Saeed. Where and when was it? Who was the ph?

Zimbabwe. We were driving along, and found a herd of buffalo in a rather agitated state. Roy Vincen, my PH, said they are being chased by lions, and we should leave them for a while and come back, we might be able to shoot one of those lions.

Sure enough, when we came back we saw their tracks. We jumped out of the car, and walked less than a mile. We suprised them resting under a tree in some grass.

Everyone ran off, excpet one. He was sitting on his hind legs, not far from us. I put a bullet through his neck, and he dropped dead.

Sudenly, one of the lionesses came charging at us screaming. We held our fire, she stopped a few yards from us, then walked and stoo next to her dead mate.

Roy said we might as well shoot her too, as we had a lioness license. I fired a shot at her, and she started jumping around in a circle. I shot her again, and that was the end of it.

Walter walked in a few minutes later, and was rather disappointed that I had fired 3 shots and all I had to show for it was only two lions.

You see, it is not that difficult to shoot a couple of lions in a few minutes.

But, if you take all the time we have actualy followed and hunted lions, then it is a different matter.

Very good. I do remember that story better now. I asked because I thought someone new here might take your statement the wrong way. I just wanted you to point out that your hunt in no way resembled one of this canned hunts. No canned hunting in Zimbabwe for sure. that should alleviate any questions anyone might have had. Thanks for clearing it up.

quote:

I shot a lion and a lioness in the same day in less than 5 minutes

Saeed you are a good guy

Seloushunter

[QUOTE] No canned hunting in Zimbabwe for sure.QUOTE]

I dont think it is as widespread as in SA but Zim also have canned hunts..

Unfortunately South Africa and all it's adjoining countries have very porous borders and equally unfortunately, it doesn't take much to smuggle a crate or two across from one to the other.

http://www.shakariconnection.c...-and-wild-lions.html

quote:

Walter walked in a few minutes later, and was rather disappointed that I had fired 3 shots and all I had to show for it was only two lions

That's the first I've heard of canned TIGER hunts in RSA.

It is common is Southern Africa for some people to refer to a leopard as a tiger.

I can guess where this is.

A few years ago we went on a hunt near Hoedspruit. The PH took us to another ranch to see white lions and photograph them. Thy also had some tigers.

I believe the gentleman's last name was Mostert. Can't remember the ranch name. He was running some hunts.

Indy & BBC

The locals do ofter refer to Leopards by the name Tiger but in this case, it probably was a real Tiger.......... it's nothing new and sadly has been going on for years. I remember someone trying to sell me one as far back as the mid 80s.

quote:

Where is PHASA to clean up the industry. This South Africans will never learn. ONLY $$$$$$ speaks

I would bet that it is going to get a lot worse before it gets better

Canned lion hunting is a blight.

But here is something to ponder. This "industry" has something like 7000 lions in the works. That is a lot of pet lions. They only way to feed them is to keep this thing churning along. If it is ended then these lions will likely be euthanized (or there will be lots of cheap lions at SCI one year).

And consider this... right now the wild lion population is in steep decline. Partly from overhunting but mostly from loss of habitat and human encroachment (read ranching and poisoning). Are we really ready to pull the plug and lose 20% of the worlds population of lions overnight?

I would never harvest one of these farm animals myself. But that is what they are at this point. It certainly isn't hunting and it shouldn't be in the SCI book.

John,

Lions breed relatively quickly and there's plenty of genetic material frozen etc, so putting the captive ones down isn't going to harm the wild population at all........ esp as they're not part of that wild population.

And I think you'll find that SCI don't accept SA lions.......

Here's an example of how the SA Govt are trying:

Africa : South Africa: Uncertain future for thousands of animals
on 2009/6/16 11:47:58

"Canned" lion hunting - the commercial shooting of captive-bred lions for trophies - appears to have been finally canned itself by a Bloemfontein High Court decision.

While last week's decision has been welcomed, questions are being raised as to what will happen to the 4 000 captive-bred lions in South Africa which have now lost their trophy value for commercial hunting, which was anything between $22 000 and $60 000 an animal.

The court action was brought in May, 2007, by the South African Predator Breeders Association and two breeders, Matthys Christiaan Mostert and Deon Cilliers. The three parties sought to overturn legislation promulgated by the former minister of environment affairs and tourism, designed to end "canned" hunting of large predators.

The legislation said captive-bred lions must be allowed to run free and fend for themselves "in an extensive wildlife system" for at least 24 months before they could be shot. This was an attempt to introduce the practice of "fair chase" into hunting captive-bred animals, which were raised to be totally dependent on humans, and to allow the animals a reasonable chance of escape. Some had been hunted in enclosures where this was not possible.

The Breeders Association, Mostert and Cilliers sought to overturn this legislation. They also asked the court to set aside the legislation which makes the future breeding of lions for canned hunts illegal.

They argued that the laws would have a big economic impact on the captive-bred lion industry, particularly in the Free State and North West. They said having to allow the animals to run free for two years would destroy the industry.

However, the court found that this claim could be refuted. The application was dismissed with costs.

The head of the Endangered Wildlife Trust, Yolan Friedman, has applauded the decision which she said would effectively put an end to canned lion hunting in South Africa.

"We believe that the principles of ethical, humane treatment of all species should never be compromised for the economic enrichment of a few, as has been the case with canned lion hunting in South Africa," she said.

She welcomed the court's finding that economic considerations could never be used to condone or ignore practices that either compromised the country's biodiversity, undermined the humane treatment of hunted animals, or tainted the hunting industry's reputation.

Friedman urged the government to begin a process immediately to avert "a welfare crisis" in which the country's existing 4 000 captive-bred lions could "fall prey to neglect and cruel treatment" now that they had lost their economic value.

"To these animals, whose lives so far have been nothing more than a caged existence to provide a trophy to an unethical hunter, their future remains uncertain," she said.


http://www.iol.co.za/index.php...0615050312491C492605

Hmmm... I would take one live over two frozen.

Have genetic lifeboats been proven to save a species yet? If so why don't we have Mammoths back (there is plenty of genetic material available).

Just something to consider.

John,

I don't really understand your comment.

My point was that there's more than enough Lion sperm & eggs in freezers around the world to enable sufficient artificial insemination to boost populations should they ever need to.

I guess my thought is they should be reintroduced into the wild. Since there isn't that much range available in Africa (that doesn't already have lions on it) we should consider historic range areas. Specifically we should release these kitty's in Europe
(After all lions roamed europe as late as 1000 years ago)

After a bit we might actually see some empathy towards those in Africa that have to live with these animals. As in "Holy shit... it just ate my kids... is this what we expected that Masaii village to live with?"

Not that we want to eliminate wild lions, but rather keep wild areas wild and not build incentives into there economic lives to encourage the overrunning of wild habitat with cows (to feed the european meat markets).

And I still prefer live lions over frozen ones. These banks may work for seed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...rd_Global_Seed_Vault I don't think they have ever been demonstrated on mammals (on a large scale that is).

Releaing 'em into the wild doesn't work in most parts of Africa, or more specifically, any area that already holds a wild population because the pride dynamics situation would probably mean more die than are released and those areas that don't have wild populations, either can't support 'em or don't want 'em...... but I take your point about elsewhere in the world.

I agree we need to keep the wild places wild, but don't hold your breath on that one.

Regardless of compassion for the lions there simply is not enough space for 7000 lions to go free in Africa without causing mayhem.
I have said this before and it does go completely against the grain, but those "trophy gatherers" who just want the lion on the wall ( and there are a hell of a lot of them) should go to a farm and shoot one.

The "hunters" should save up their pennies and go and hunt one in the wilderness areas. This however comes with the proviso that the wild lions need to increase in value dramatically as the range they protect is being coveted by humans.There simply are not enough accessible wild lions around to supply every hunter with one at reasonable cost.
If we do want to keep the wild places wild, we need to make them more profitable, in simple terms, the hunter will have to pay more and more for the privilege of hunting a truly wild lion. South Africa is already out of the equation as a wild hunting area but there are still plenty of opportunities in other African countries.
I am not sure about how this could ever change but I do think that funds generated through hunting need to be better distributed to cover a wider base of beneficiaries. Without the vote of the people who we compete with for the land it will invariably fall to human pressures, if those funds were getting to the people then there would be incentive to keep it wild.
Steve will know better the realities of the situation, but as things stand I think we are loosing ground on lions as a whole because the focus has shifted from the wild populations to the media sensationalized captive lions which have no impact on the wild at all.

Canned Lion shooting is abhorrent to Lion hunters and any true sportsman.

Vlam,

Kind of you to say so mate but I think the best qualified person to comment would be BwanaMich.

But FWIW, I agree we're losing ground on both the animals and also the true wilderness areas.

As to the cure for the Lion problem, I don't really know, except perhaps to encourage the taking of only the appropriate animals that are either not holding a pride or are holding a pride that has no dependent young....... one thing's for sure, hunting of truly wild Lions is only ever gonna get more expensive as each year goes by.

About the only other thing is to educate the peoples such as the Masai not to kill Lions...... and there ain't much chance of that ever happening.

As to the cure for the true wilderness area problem....... maybe we should recolonise the dark continent and rewrite the rule book!

BwanaMich if you around would appreciate any input.

Steve, did not realise the Masai still accounted for a lot of lions.
I have a question, how long, in your mind do you need to follow a Male to ascertain whether he would be appropriate to hunt or not. Some of them have been recorded leaving their prides for months whilst holding their place in the structure etc. It gets tough when you get to this level. (Those males in Etosha actually had two prides on the go and would alternate between them on a seasonal basis)
Do you think that Lion hunters could finance ongoing research and indirect "population management" to optimize the reproductive potential through selective hunting? Would the contact with the prides bugger things up anyway?

Vlam,

It's really about knowing the prides in the individual areas well enough to know the situation. Companies such as TGTS and a few others do it, so it is possible.

However, of course hunters would also have to be prepared to pay higher prices and accept lower success rates and I'm not sure that would happen in the real world....... It'd also mean PHs being prepared to make sure they don't lower their standards under pressure from an over eager hunter and I'm not sure about that either. It's not too difficult when the PH is an old bugger like me, but a youngster faced with an older and influential client who's used to getting his own way, might not find it quite so easy to tell the guy he can't shoot the trophy of his dreams when it's right in front of them.

Of course, sometimes inappropriate Lions do occasionally have to be shot, for a variety of reasons and indeed I've had to do it a couple of times myself and I'm not ashamed of that fact but ideally those occasions would be kept to a bare minimum.

As to could hunters finance an ongoing study project........ well, I guess that would have to be done through one of the large hunting clubs or associations simply because of the large cost involved. Whether they'd be prepared to do that, I simply don't know.

As to would the contact bugger things up..... I doubt it. After all, some of the prides in the Mara and similar areas have been followed by camera crews for years and they seem to accept the situation without any great problems...... but again, BwanaMich could probably offer more informed comment.

Thanks Steve
You bring up some great food for thought on this one. Especially with regards to the PH and clients responsibility to the operational success. They will after all be the ones "on the front lines" so to speak.

Glad to hear that some guys do practice this sort of conservation, I guess it comes with dedication to the ongoing success of the area as opposed to the short term money in the pocket scenario.
Do you think that longer lease periods on concession areas might give rise to better conservation practices?
Would it not instill a sense of pride and custodianship in operations to conform to long term conservation ideals. Then again, the age old question of how to control Greed comes flying right back up in the face of that one.

The more you get into the swings of this one the more you realise the level of complexity that is actually being dealt with.
Its not going to be easy, but things need to start rolling before its too late.

Mate, dealing with older clients who want and expect their own way really can be a problem for younger PHs, esp younger South African PHs who have been bought up to respect their elders in the way it is in their society.

As you say, greed will always be an issue with those who are prepared to compromise their integrity for a price and I guess you'll never eliminate that....... however, as you say, longer leases may well help. As might strict rules and harsh penalties for leaseholder, outfitter, PH, client and gamescout etc. If you penalise everyone involved the chances are no-one or very few will want to break the rules.

Also as you say, it ain't gonna be easy and it ain't gonna get done overnight.

In 1980 I was at a very prominent taxidermist's shop in South Africa and took a photo of two full mounts of lions and a tiger. One lion had the big mane .. the other had a rather scruffy one .. and the tiger, of course, was drop dead gorgeous. 2 of the 3 were canned .. Can you guess ? They told me that the really out of place feline cost $7,000.

If you get the tse tse fly populations back up that will preserve wild areas for wildlife. They don't bother native critters but kill the cattle.

The Europeans did a recent eradication effort for this fly. Was it to help the locals or was it to increase the beef supply??? You guess.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:
Hmmm... I would take one live over two frozen.

Have genetic lifeboats been proven to save a species yet? If so why don't we have Mammoths back (there is plenty of genetic material available).

Just something to consider.

Your comment on the availability of "...genetic material..." from mammoths has really been addressed by Shakari already. Clarification of the difference between 'genetic material' and 'breeding material' may be in order.

I can quite believe that there is plenty of 'genetic material' in the form of DNA available from frozen mammoths. But, although this DNA can be replicated in a lab, it is NOT suitable to actually be used to 'breed' baby mammoths! To do that, you would need to have, as Shakari said, viable sperm and egg cells. Such viable frozen sperm and egg cells can then be thawed and used for petri-dish fertilization. Then you would need to implant the embryo into a suitable surrogate mother - which may be a modern elephant? In the case of mammoths the alternative of 'artificial insemination' mentioned by Shakari is quite impossible, due to no living mammoth females around any more.

I have thought long and hard about the nett effect of Kortbroek van Schalkwyk's banning of 'canned lion hunting'. He did NOT ban it, but only legalised the practice, although in such a manner that it is far less economical than it was in the past!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Canned Lion shooting is abhorrent to Lion hunters and any true sportsman.

+1

thankx for sharing ur thoughts,i know to shoot 2 animals in 5 mins is possible,what i was asking is if we can hunt in less days and nominal animal price then atleast we save time daily rates ph money of 21 days and and and.the lion cost him $20000,and lioness cost him $7000,is there any match for this???????plus where in the earth u can shoot a tiger and take it home officilly.my regards to all.

quote:

is there any match for this???????

plus where in the earth u can shoot a tiger and take it home officilly

In the ZOO


Seloushunter