In some weird way, all of these discussions of the 45-70 against cape buff have me thinking that it would be awefully fun. I've never hunted with a 45-70, or cape buff, I'm completely naive to the effectiveness of the combo in the field. That said, I figure if I accept to live with the limitations of the round, and the fact that I might never get a shot within those limitations, it would make the hunt more fun. I think this also may be the crux of the arguments, and the lack of understanding. The 45-70 proponets would rather go home empty handed, but have a more fun hunt then if they had taken a "proper rifle". The "proper rifle" proponets will be darned if they are going home empty handed, and want something that will flatten the buff no matter what the situation.

Now, I'll broaden the selection to two combinations, a marlin 45-70 iron sighted lever gun, or a Ruger #1 scope sighted single shot. Bullets will be hard cast. Personally, I'll live with the slower follow up's from the #1, and take the superior sighting from the scope, and the improved balistics from the actions strength. I would plan to load a 525 gr to 1800 fps, provided such a combo could be loaded at safe pressures.

Why would a guy with a beautiful 500 A-Square want to hunt with a 45-70?

Sometimes I like to take an odd rifle just to see how it works, but usually I am at the overkill end of the spectrum. Within my personal budget, a cape buffalo is a large expenditure, so I want to be sure I do it right. For me, that means 458 lott minimum.

Paul

If you would go after a Cape Buffalo by yourself with a particular cartridge or type of rifle than you should feel comfortable with it when a PH is involved.

If you would not hunt by yourself with the cartridge or the rifle type than why would you put yourself, the PH and staff in a potentially dangerous situation for the 'experience'?

Mickey,

I think the average safari client equiped with a 375 H&H puts the PH and staff in more danger due to his lack of shooting skills and knowledge of shot placement on game animals then a hunter equipped with a "lesser" round, but fully aware of that rounds capablities, and having the discipline to shoot within those capabilities.

Paul,

I think you're wrong on a couple of points: I don't think the .45-70 proponents are more willing to go home empty-handed than the "proper rifle" advocates. Only bowhunters are willing to do that, since they operate with a tiny margin for error.

The .45-70 proponents just flat out believe their choice of gun is capable of doing the job regardless of shot presentation or conditions. They cannot imagine that it or their bullets may not be up to the task, hence their defense of their premise.

Second, the "proper rifle" proponents expect that they will get a shot at a buff, and once engaged, want to terminate the encounter as quickly as possible.

The "fun" of hunting Cape buffalo is testing yourself via the tracking, the final stalk, and taking on one of Africa's biggest, baddest actors.
Testing the equipment is a very small part of it.

Once you do it, you'll wonder if you, and your gun, are up to the challenge.

George

If you want to impose limitations, why not try hunting the cape buffalo with a bow? ... if that can be said in a reloading forum?

Twang

It's been done but not by me!
I don't have stones large enough to even contemplate that

Fred Bear did it with a recurve.

Nugent gut shot one with a compound bow, along with others. Shooting it may not be too much of a problem, but if you wounded it - the follow up would be hell.

Twang

Gents,

I think it has finally been stated properly, "STONES". HI

Roger QSL

Paul,
1800fps with a 525gr bullet is certainly attainable in the #1. I regularly shoot such a combo, where you run into problems is getting the right alloy so your bullet doesn't fly apart when it impacts, a quality cast bullet supplier will be able to help you there. I would scope the Lever Action as well, just because it is better for low light conditions, a 1.5X5 setup is ideal given the ranges used with this cartridge. The #1 is not as slow as some would believe, I can shuck shells through mine pretty quick, even with recovery from recoil, I use the extra rounds between the fingers method. I won't argue whether those of us who hunt with this setup would pass on a questionable shot opprotunity, I think that is a deeper issue of ethics and transcends caliber choice. The #1 is hell for stout, but is light and recoil can become brutal, 525gr bullets nudging 2000fps in a 7 1/4lb rifle gets your attention.

Suluuq,

There you go extrapolating again. If someone hasn't done something, I don't accept it blindly when they say it can be done.

I think Ron Spomer just wrote that a .308 is more than adequate for any African antelope, but he used a .300Wby.

Some other hack wrote that he'd never hunted African DG, but he thinks/feels/believes...

Who gives a shit what they think if they haven't done what they suggest that you try?

At least Seyfried doesn't actually recommend a .45-70 lever-action for Cape buffalo.

George

I cant speak for others, but for me the hunt is everything, the kill very little. I regularly choose rifles or cartridges to hunt with others would call limiting. I'll pass shots that dont feel right, and will come home empty handed if need be to enjoy my choice. I dont know how shooting an animal in the ass with a heavy rifle is skillfull hunting? But to each his own, others critisize my choice, I try to be big enough not to do the same.

TSJ,

If you're willing to invest $10,000-18,000 and come home empty-handed because your tool wasn't up to the job, all the more power to you.

Who said anything about shooting the animal in the ass?

George

GeorgeS,

George, if you ain't up for it, don't be involved. If your worried as to everyone elses saftey, don't. It's there choice. By the way, do you have any data showing how many hunters, PH's, trackers or local tribespeople that may have been hurt, maimed or killed, while the shooter was using a 45/70? Ive only read of clients being killed or maulled when using the "Big Guns".

As for stones, it takes a pair to not be frightened sometimes. Don't know about rocks, I don't have that problem.HI

Bottom line, just let everybody else make up there own minds as to their hunting abilities.

TSJ
One Of Us
Member # 5641

posted 10-26-2002 17:45
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I cant speak for others, but for me the hunt is everything, the kill very little. I regularly choose rifles or cartridges to hunt with others would call limiting. I'll pass shots that dont feel right, and will come home empty handed if need be to enjoy my choice. I dont know how shooting an animal in the ass with a heavy rifle is skillfull hunting? But to each his own, others critisize my choice, I try to be big enough not to do the same.

Very well spoken, TSJ

Roger QSL
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Suluuq,

Which rifle/calibers would you regard as most effective on buffalo.

Bolt action 375 H&H
Bolt action 416 Rem/Rigby
Bolt action 458 Win
Bolt action 458 Lott
Marlin 45/70

Mike

Roger,

I'm not worried about the client's safety; anyone who undertakes a DG hunt (and I have done 3 African DG hunts so far) should be aware of the risks involved.
To blithely assume that the PH will always be able to bail you out of a jam is the wrong way to think.

You have to be 100% prepared to finish what you have started, regardless of the presence of backup.

FYI, it's not fear I feel when stalking Cape buffalo; it's a heightened excitement, an edginess, a visceral resolve that I've started something and by God I am going to finish it!

I don't 'fear' DG, but I am keenly aware that it's a far leap from whacking white-tails in a woodlot.

George

George S,
I wasnt refering to anything in general, but many people want the biggest rifle going so they can take butt shots on game. Not my style, if it's someone elses, fine.
I hunt for the memories, not the horns/skin ect.
I'll give you an example. last month a moose decided breaking in and out of the fences that held our youngstock was it's favorite pastime. It was right when we were trying to get crops in and was in a hurry. With the Ok of the F&W office, I took a scoped .308 into the swamp, found and killed the moose with a shot to the base of the skull at a distance. There was no memories to that. If I had the time, stalking it with my win 95 30-40 Krag would have been a great time. The hunt, not the kill is what I like.

After the past few post I am re-thinking my views about the residents of one great wild area left in the earth................ I thought you had to be smart, tough, and STUBBORN to survive in Alaska.

Well two out of three arn't bad.

Urdubob

P.S for the 45/70 fans who wish to make it in to something it is not... I.Q. is not strong suite.

[ 10-27-2002, 01:04: Message edited by: urdubob ]

urdubob,
I would challenge you to a battle of wits, but I don't fight unarmed men, or women. You may try to belittle someone who actually enjoys HUNTING, but it won't work. So you can just go on being a Jackass.

HI,
URDUBOB,I see in your post you have a obsession with the 4570.You seem you cannot stop talking about it and now you have decided that is not enough and are insulting people who use it for some reason. I will have a lever in a 50-110 as I like a little more powerful round than the 4570, but think if someone wants to use a 4570 that is up to them.If you have some hatered toward the 4570 that is your issue but you really should lay off insulting people who may have there likes. Thanks,Kev

Thanks Kev,

Wow you seem to be a bit Angry ....have you had to much coffee today?

I enjoy reading all the post and I hope you enjoy mine.

The 45/70 is about the same power as a 20 guage slug.

I have two 45/70 i use to punch paper with..I would use the 45/70 on small deer or bunnies .....I would use them to hunt the same things i hunt with a 20 guage slug...BUT IT IS NOT A CAPE BUFFALO STOPPER.

URDUBOB

Dear Mr AKBman,
You sir are ..... silly. Plus Sir, you are a coward.... your profile is lacking to say the least..you should edit it to say "inferior alaska"

I will respond no more to your pathetic insults.
(well maybe one more time)
urdubob

[ 10-27-2002, 20:01: Message edited by: urdubob ]

HI,

URDUBOB,I am trying to cut back on the coffee or just put something in it a little stronger.I do too enjoy reading the post here just may not agree with everyones views, but that does not make there IQs low.Thanks,Kev

Thats OK urdubob, you and Al Gore can hang out, being from the same place and all, you folks sure grow'em intelligent. Surprising someplace so beautiful can harbor such ignorance, I am glad there are no military bases I could be assigned to where you are. I think I will stick with "Inferior Alaska". We do not want nor need your type here, Californian's creating game laws based on tourism is bad enough.

Dear AKBman,

Please recall Mr Gore did not carry his own state.

Hey tough guy I have a real profile and a real Email address. We have a helicopter unit in my own town. Please come down and see me. Better yet if you would like to carry this on in private Email me. Remember you called me a jackass....you are a coward... you don't even have the balls to put you email address on your profile.

I bet you are Axel or Buell or some other pathetic loser.

(as for spending time hunting...you only wished you spent as much time as i do in the woods: 100+ days a year.)

urdubob

Kev,
Thanks for your civil reply..I will try to do better. Just dont think the 45/70 has enough steam
for cape buffalo. The past three or four months it has just started to wear on me...so I've tried to show how silly it is.

Respectfully,

urdubob

[ 10-27-2002, 20:20: Message edited by: urdubob ]

HI,

I agree we may want to just stop the whole debate on the 4570 as people choose what they will hunt with anyway.The most important thing is the person behind the rifle anyway, markmanship is the key with any round.Thanks, Kev

You insult my intellegence and have the audacity to call me a coward for calling you a jackass. You want to end the name calling it is fine with me. I spend over 200 days a year hunting, mostly small game, commitments elsewhere kept me from my regular caribou and moose hunts this year, I did manage to take a grizzly in the Alaska Range though. You will have me beat next year, as I will be spending a year in the Middle East, serving in the defense of our Nation, so I would prefer to not be called a coward. beerman3133@yahho.com

AKBman,

Coward did not intend to cast doubts on your military service.

How are we to know if you are real... you in fact may just be Axel or buell. I too spent 44 fun filled month working for my favorite uncle.

We will finish this off line by email.

My comment about time spent hunting was in regards to a preceding post.(200 days a year...humm)
that sounds a little high.

Remember... sonny you attacked me directly.
My post were in general.

urdubob

I wish to ask forgiveness of the other members..I won't let this happen again.

urdubob

[ 10-28-2002, 01:04: Message edited by: urdubob ]

Paul:

I understand the desire to hunt buffalo with a 45/70. Sort of like trying to hunt rhino with a thompson contender.

However, it could turn into a media circus, and, damage the hunting industry(this has happened prior with bad shooting with a t/c at rhinos in SA).

That said, a man has to know his limitations.

I'm going to say by your interest, and position, that you are an excellent shot. I think that is the single most important feature of hunting any sort of DG,and you had better know where the bullet has to go.

From my long ago reading of K Bell's book, he used a very light recoil 7X57 to kill more elephant then we can ever dream of. He also survived, only because of the existence of one tiny tree, a charge by a heard of about 1 million cape buffalo, twice, IIRC.

Likewise, Ross Seyfried has used a 45 Linebaugh colt to kill a very big, mean, and old cape buffalo. Took him 5 shots, and the old guy died pretty much at his feet, trying to kill him.

I noticed that right after this experience he decided to build a wildcat version of the 577 Nitro express, the 585 Nyati. Perhaps that experience with the Cape buffalo and the 45 fueled his desire to have as much gun as he could shoot, for self-defense?

That 45 colt pistol used 27.5 grains of H-110, with a 345 grain hard cast Keith style bullet, for 1550fps(don't try this at home, unless you have a custom built Linebaugh 45, or a casull).
Keep in mind, Ross is also an excellent shot, but, in the situation he was in, the buffalo almost got him.

Now a 45/70 has excellent bullet choices, and will penetrate very well. However, many cast bullet makers suggest that a cast bullet is designed to work at a certain speed, usually lower then what is normally used for jacketed bullets. I'd do a little research, check with Garrett, and Beartooth, and see if the bullet you intend to use is up to the higher velocity.

I know another old guy that recommended no more velocity then 2200-2300 fps using hardcast bullets, and he killed an elephant with a 303 and a cast bullet, brain shot. But again, he's pretty much a legend for his shooting abilities...

While I like anything that evens the playing field, you had better be able to hit the exact right spot, at the exact, correct angle with a cape buffalo, or, you could end up dead.

Another great writer, Jack O'conner, wrote about the Cape Buffalo that would not die, absorbing something like 10 shots from a 375, and a 470 Nitro express, each.

Frankly, I don't think you are giving CB's enough respect using a 45/70 on em, but that's just me.

I would be as likely to take a 45/70 after a buffalo as a pocket knife, but, I like giving the
guys a chance to horn some idiot for taking too little gun...

On the otherhand, it does create a great story.
Why don't you go after a buffalo with a casull or 45 colt?

Do it the way Ross did it, with just himself, and a gunbearer, and no back up...

s

[ 10-28-2002, 01:41: Message edited by: Socrates ]

Socrates,
Fine response to Paul's post.
Wish we could get the rest of the members to use this level of response. This is what a person, looking for guidance, is viewing this thread for. Not as in the previous posts. Maybe things are turning around.

Roger QSL

urdubob,
You win, I would like to personally apologize to you for my comments. I get tired of people who don't shoot a given caliber offering up expert advice about it, this does not excuse my behavior. I will continue to visit here, but will confine my posts to the big game forum, the varmint forum, and the single shot rifle forum. If you wish that is my email, and I will respond to any messages. Adios