Found an interesting submission by a collection of some of the world's most respected authorities on lion research and conservation.

If someone can tell me how to post a .pdf doc I can do so.

In the meantime, herebelow is one from our "good friend" Dereck!



Dear Members of the Committee,

I am a National Geographic Explorer in Residence, one of 14 around the world and chosen because of a lifetime’s work with big cats in Africa, both in the field of research and in film.
I have used my films over 30 years as a platform to discuss conservation of big cats and that has resulted in receiving the World Ecology Award, alongside Prince Charles, the Aga Khan, and others, as well as the Botswana Presidential Merit of Honor among the other more film related awards (Emmy’s Peabodies etc.)
Some of our films have been seen by 1 Billion people worldwide.

As what is considered an expert on lions, and I know that there are many, my wife and I founded the Big Cats Initiative with National Geographic and we have funded over 40 projects in over 13 countries at a cost of about $1M a year.

The result of all of this effort you would imagine an impressive increase in awareness and conservation and even numbers of lions in Africa over that time.
Instead, since I was born 56 years ago, lion numbers have crashed from an estimated 450,000 to anywhere between 20,000 and 30,000 today, despite those efforts. This constitutes a 95% crash in my lifetime and that alone would be sad but consistent if all wildlife was on the same decline.
However, my research shows that we are losing predators at a rate that is even faster than habitat destruction and other prey species loss.

You will be reading by now that this is as a result of many factors; hunting, poaching, poisoning, retaliation for livestock losses, slash and burn and habitat destruction and it is true that all play a factor. One way or another, the truth is, we could not be eradicating lions faster if we were making a concerted effort to do so. We are destroying lions so rapidly that if you look at the statistics, even the conservative ones, we are losing populations at a rate of between 5 and 8% a year, on top of the normal, sustainable behavioral losses.

As we know from Darwin and Wallace’s joint theories of island biodiversity, the smaller the island (population) the more rapid the rate of extinction.

I am also fortunate enough to run a company in Africa called Great Plains Conservation, that presently controls just over 1,000,000 acres of wild land, primarily to protect wild places, make sure we are not left with ‘islands’ of wildlife and in particular the wild predator populations.
What we are seeing on the ground however, in these places, is an equal spread of lions but annually diminished pride sizes, and yet we have some of the prime locations on the continent.
Lions, are in a rapid decline. Of that there is no doubt.
We have more than enough scientific evidence of that, and even more anecdotal collective experience from hundreds of guides and bush people in the safari industry. We are losing the African lion.

The solutions we have set in place range widely but largely target reduction of killings due to livestock conflict. We have for example started the first Maasai Olympics where the young warriors who usually spear lions enter athletic competitions as an alternative and outlet for competitive energy. We finance livestock enclosures, and compensation programs, education, policy and campaigns. But the overwhelming weakness in any effort to protect any animal is legislation. This rests in the hands of governments, not NGO’s and no matter what we do on the ground, it is meaningless if legislation is not working in parallel.

I estimate that trade in lion parts, either via trophy hunting, or by the emerging lion bone trade is responsible for roughly 45% of lions deaths today. If we can stop just a portion of this I believe that we can change the 8% annual decline in population size to at least a level curve, or even a positive increase.
This trade is a sector we can only marginally erode by education, or even policing, but it is the area that by legislating that lion receive protected status, you can solve for us all in a very efficient and effective way.

I understand that there will be opposition to this by the hunting lobby, but I think that perhaps the facts are not fully known. An ESA listing and even a CITES listing does not preclude safari hunters from carrying out their sport. It just curtails the trade in those trophies afterwards. Most hunters have no desire to sell their trophies anyway, so I believe that the opposition by hunters to any legislation is based on misinformation.

However, the most compelling reason to place lions on to maximum protection in the US and ultimately on CITES is to create a legal restriction to the movement of lions parts. In the last 5 years lions bones have replaced tiger bones in the Asian market and created a very dramatically increased pressure on our lion populations. I have intercepted messages from buyers wanting to pay $10,000 for old hunted lion bones, usually buried in the field somewhere and we have to look no further than the rhino populations in free fall in South Africa to understand what trade in animals parts result in. At present rhinos are being poached at one every 13 hours, and this is because any trade bans came in too late as the market grew. Lion bone markets are just starting up, and unless we clamp down now, I fear that lions will rapidly join rhinos as the most slaughtered species on the planet.

The South African government has issued even more lion bone licenses for export and it is fueling a market that is enormously damaging to the population. In addition, these lion bones, legal and illegal only serve to confuse the already besieged policing of bones from tigers as they are easily passed off as being from South Africa, even if they are tiger bones. Lion trade will not only focus attention on lions but wipe out tigers as well. Now is the time to stop it.

Without legislation now we will forever be fighting a losing battle.

We are collectively spending many millions of dollars a year in anti poaching, and certainly that has to continue.
We are spending many millions on conflict resolution with the cattle cultures who are up against lions in Africa and we need to continue that.
But our resources can never keep up with the weight of poaching and hunting that kills lions for trade throughout Africa and without your help, frankly, we will be fighting a losing battle, not forever but for the next 10 years, until lions are finally extinct everywhere except the most highly protected and even fenced in game parks.

Your decisions now, will actually change the face of Africa forever though in a deeper more significant way: A decision to legislate for protection will reduce all but the hardest core illegal poachers of lions. Your decision to not legislate will send African conservation in a direction of triage, where we will need to decide which parks we can save and which we cannot, and then focus our efforts on this. The risk then is a myopic management style that discards the value of genetic diversification, migration, wildness and all the things that make Africa what it is.

We, on the ground in Africa, can only do what we can. We need some international policy and legislation now to help.

Yours sincerely,

Dereck Joubert
Explorer in Residence
National Geographic Society.

He is single handedly responsible for the end of hunting in Botswana.

Hi Bwana,

I have been CCed on most of the submissions to USF&W in favor of hunting...including the one from Conservation Force and the African Lion Working Group. I will ask permission to post from the authors and then send them along with the one from LCTF to Saeed to be pasted at the top of the Lion Forum.

There are some interesting submissions against the listing from the circus and animal road show associations as well.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Hi Bwana,

I have been CCed on most of the submissions to USF&W in favor of hunting...including the one from Conservation Force and the African Lion Working Group. I will ask permission to post from the authors and then send them along with the one from LCTF to Saeed to be pasted at the top of the Lion Forum.

Bwana - Along with Lane and George, I too have been copied on all of the submissions to the USFWS, including this crap from Joubert!!!

Without question - the ALWG (African Lion Working Group) which does include Joubert (why, I don't know?) but also almost every single African Lion scientist on the planet! Submitted their opinion, one which called for continued reform to current lion hunting practices BUT made it clear that the ESA uplisting would be detrimental to the WILD LION!

Every single scientist that I know, or know of, that has experience/credibility as it pertains to the African Lion - has cast an opinion to the USFWS, NOT to uplist the Lion! I've read alot of submission info over the past week or so, and as it pertains to "qualified" people, the consensus is almost 100% against the uplisting of the lion!

So, will truth, rationale and good science win out - or will emotion and politics be the play? My opinion - science is gonna win this one!

quote:

I estimate that trade in lion parts, either via trophy hunting, or by the emerging lion bone trade is responsible for roughly 45% of lions deaths today

I wonder where he gets these numbers from? Are there really that many lion hunters out there?

I hope someone challanges those numbers.

Jim

quote:

I have intercepted messages from buyers wanting to pay $10,000 for old hunted lion bones,

Has this SOB criminal prick got a licence or authority to wire tap or intercept messages.

we have to look no further than the rhino populations in free fall in South Africa to understand what trade in animals parts result in. At present rhinos are being poached at one every 13 hours, and this is because any trade bans came in too late as the market grew.

There is no lawful trade in rhino as he is alluding to. There is as yet no freefall in the rhino populations yet. They are still breeding faster than they are being poached. POINT; if it was not for hunting, rhinos would not be where they are today. The trade bans have been in existence for years. The surge in poaching has taken place in the previous three years.


However, the most compelling reason to place lions on to maximum protection in the US and ultimately on CITES is to create a legal restriction to the movement of lions parts.

Restricting the movement of rhino horn and elephant ivory has done nothing to stop their movement.

The South African government has issued even more lion bone licenses for export and it is fueling a market that is enormously damaging to the population.

Well at last canned / farmed lions are doing something for wild populations. In this instance, the bones are an agricultural product. If the Oriental medicine has a legal source, then they will leave the wild stuff alone. The SA government is not fueling the market, just supplying it.

This scheming, thieving bastard [millions raised under false premises] is not only barking up the wrong tree, he is on the wrong continent. He must go to Beijing and squawk there.

quote:

Originally posted by Singleshot03:

quote:

I estimate that trade in lion parts, either via trophy hunting, or by the emerging lion bone trade is responsible for roughly 45% of lions deaths today

I wonder where he gets these numbers from? Are there really that many lion hunters out there?

I hope someone challanges those numbers.

Jim

Perhaps I'm being overly simplistic, but can someone (Probably Lane or Aaron) please give the TOTAL annual quotas for every country that allows lion hunting? Assuming even a 100% success rate, I find it hard to believe that sport hunted lions are being taken at a rate anywhere near 10% of lion deaths, let alone a significant portion of 45% of annual deaths. For discussion sake, let's use the numbers that Joubert claims in his letter. If you have a total population of, say, 25,000 wild african lions (exactly the middle of Joubert's population range claim), and an 8% annual mortality (again, his claimed number) then you have 2,000 lions being killed annually in the segment that Joubert claims should be reduced. Of the alleged 2,000 lion deaths, how many are sport hunting? What is the total CITES quota for South Africa (remember, VERY FEW lions here are wild, unfenced cats), Namibia, Zimbabwe, Zambia, Mozambique, Tanzania, and perhaps also CAR and Cameroon or any other country I've forgotten. I have a difficult time believing that sport hunting plays a very significant role in this segment of annual mortalities, even if Joubert is correct in his claim.

quote:

Originally posted by Singleshot03:

quote:

I estimate that trade in lion parts, either via trophy hunting, or by the emerging lion bone trade is responsible for roughly 45% of lions deaths today

I wonder where he gets these numbers from? Are there really that many lion hunters out there?

I hope someone challanges those numbers.

Jim

It is a load of bollocks. This Juobert fellow juggles numbers to suit his own agenda. And his pocket.

quote:

It is a load of bollocks. This Juobert fellow juggles numbers to suit his own agenda. And his pocket.

A load of bollocks it is indeed, for those who know the truth.
Unfortunately he has the gift of the gab when it comes to pulling the wool over the eyes of the ignorant masses and winning them over to his side. Just think how many bunny huggers literally cry when they read all that BS and immediately send in their contributions!

With his every success in banning hunting or generally being a pain in the arse for hunters, the wire transfers being received from his followers must be quite phenomenal.

"To suit his own agenda" - of course, its just another profession where "my wife and I founded the Big Cats Initiative with National Geographic and we have funded over 40 projects in over 13 countries at a cost of about $1M a year".
They must have made a pretty packet skimming the funds!

Joubert and his 'figures' are the very reason why cat hunting has also been banned in Zambia for this year. All it takes is for a slightly clueless minister or member of government with influence to read one of those articles and become brainwashed about animal populations in their country and start banning our hunting. People like Joubert tend to forget that its the people living in the GMAs and just outside the parks that are finnishing off these animals with their endless snares and due to the human animal conflict. The percentages that are being blamed on commercial hunting with regards to the diminishing lion populations by him are well and truely exaggerated. Just as he claims to have lived in these areas and seen the lion populations go down drastically, I can say that I visit hunting areas in Zambia every year and it is not the hunter who should be blamed for the decrease. It is the people who live in the GMAs. He should use the $1m he gets on the human animal conflict rather then putting so much emphasis on trying to stop trophy hunting.

quote:

They must have made a pretty packet skimming the funds!

No bad considering they have been on extended holiday for the past 10 years.

Joubert needs to get a decent haircut and a job.

I once watched a National Geographic show put on by Joubert, where he and wife were shinning spotlights in the eyes of Buffalo whilst Lion made the kill, basically as good as shooting goldfish in a tank. The man has no scruples.

There biggest problem with the Lion populations in Africa today revolves around a basic fact, and that is there is not enough free range for the cats. They are being squeezed into smaller areas each year by the ever expanding human population. Despite the huge reduction in sport hunted Lion this will always be a problem.

I would doubt there are 100 Lion shot in Africa this year, wild Lion that is. South African pen raised Lion have no effect on population decrease, although I believe the anti s are using the number of pen raised Lion shot each year as part of their ammunition to close Wild Lion Hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ W R Broom:
I once watched a National Geographic show put on by Joubert, where he and wife were shinning spotlights in the eyes of Buffalo whilst Lion made the kill, basically as good as shooting goldfish in a tank. The man has no scruples.

There biggest problem with the Lion populations in Africa today revolves around a basic fact, and that is there is not enough free range for the cats. They are being squeezed into smaller areas each year by the ever expanding human population. Despite the huge reduction in sport hunted Lion this will always be a problem.

I would doubt there are 100 Lion shot in Africa this year, wild Lion that is. South African pen raised Lion have no effect on population decrease, although I believe the anti s are using the number of pen raised Lion shot each year as part of their ammunition to close Wild Lion Hunting.

Russ - The anti's are using the info from SA - high fenced lions, that is definitely true. Secondly, you're speculation on less than 100 lions (wild) will be shot this year in all of Africa, is likely an excellent estimation.

Last year TZ took roughly 40, cut out Zambia this year too - roughly 30 plus each year, and I expect the number will be alot less than 100.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

It is a load of bollocks. This Juobert fellow juggles numbers to suit his own agenda. And his pocket.

A load of bollocks it is indeed, for those who know the truth.
Unfortunately he has the gift of the gab when it comes to pulling the wool over the eyes of the ignorant masses and winning them over to his side. Just think how many bunny huggers literally cry when they read all that BS and immediately send in their contributions!

With his every success in banning hunting or generally being a pain in the arse for hunters, the wire transfers being received from his followers must be quite phenomenal.

"To suit his own agenda" - of course, its just another profession where "my wife and I founded the Big Cats Initiative with National Geographic and we have funded over 40 projects in over 13 countries at a cost of about $1M a year".
They must have made a pretty packet skimming the funds!

40 projects for 1 million dollars= $20,000/project. even in Africa you aren't going to get much done for $20,000/year- especially after the usual bribes are paid....

jdollar:

$1M would be nett after the skimming

And you're right, $20,000/year per project is bugger all!

quote:

Every single scientist that I know, or know of, that has experience/credibility as it pertains to the African Lion - has cast an opinion to the USFWS, NOT to uplist the Lion!

All but one......

quote:

Originally posted by Russ W R Broom:

There biggest problem with the Lion populations in Africa today revolves around a basic fact, and that is there is not enough free range for the cats. They are being squeezed into smaller areas each year by the ever expanding human population. Despite the huge reduction in sport hunted Lion this will always be a problem.
.

The nail is hit on the head...

Good submission by SCI, I felt...

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Every single scientist that I know, or know of, that has experience/credibility as it pertains to the African Lion - has cast an opinion to the USFWS, NOT to uplist the Lion!

All but one......

> From: packer@***.edu
> To: ledvm@msn.com
> Subject: Re: Update
> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 07:54:26 -0600
>
> I met twice with USFWS and they are very keen
> to resolve the lion issue via
> self-policing by the American hunting
> industry -- if SCI will follow DSC's
> lead, the lion will stay on quota!!
>
> Craig

quote:

Originally posted by Russ W R Broom:
I would doubt there are 100 Lion shot in Africa this year, wild Lion that is. South African pen raised Lion have no effect on population decrease, although I believe the anti s are using the number of pen raised Lion shot each year as part of their ammunition to close Wild Lion Hunting.

No need to let facts get in the way of good propaganda......

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Last year TZ took roughly 40

Aaron or anyone else,

Any idea how many 21 day hunts were taken last year?

Brett

Not easy to answer that one Brett. Are you perhaps trying to correlate lion quotas to 21 day licenses?

Something like that. It would be interesting to know how many people actually hunted lion compared to those 40 shot.

Brett

Brett, I don't have the answer to that - sorry!

Brett,

I have seen the stats somewhere but it will take me ages to find these and I don't have the time.........let's say that success rate was in the region of 12- 20%

Everyone here are some of the responses. Some of the link names are wrong but the content has the real title. I will fix the link names when I get time. But...as Aaron stated above...science is on our side.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...1002751/m/6381013581

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

> From: packer@***.edu
> To: ledvm@msn.com
> Subject: Re: Update
> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 07:54:26 -0600
>
> I met twice with USFWS and they are very keen
> to resolve the lion issue via
> self-policing by the American hunting
> industry -- if SCI will follow DSC's
> lead, the lion will stay on quota!!
>
> Craig

To me this is a very straight-forward and telling statement.

Thanks for sharing it, Lane.

Has SCI taken a stand or commented?

quote:

Originally posted by jjbull:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

> From: packer@***.edu
> To: ledvm@msn.com
> Subject: Re: Update
> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 07:54:26 -0600
>
> I met twice with USFWS and they are very keen
> to resolve the lion issue via
> self-policing by the American hunting
> industry -- if SCI will follow DSC's
> lead, the lion will stay on quota!!
>
> Craig

To me this is a very straight-forward and telling statement.

Thanks for sharing it, Lane.

Has SCI taken a stand or commented?

>From: joe.hosmer@****.com
>Subject: Re: The African Lion and potential
>ESA up-list
>Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 19:40:46 -0800
>To: ledvm@msn.com

>Lane,

>I know that this document has been under
>consideration by Dr Maki and our SCI
>Foundation Conservation Committee for awhile
>now.

>It is presently an agenda item on their annual
>Planning Meeting of January 27, 2013. That
>said, we respect the concerns of this request,
>brought forth by you and others. Hence, I
>believe that this committee's leadership will
>be holding a meeting, to address this matter,
>prior to January 27, 2013.

>I will keep you posted as this issue unfolds.


>Respectfully,

>Joe Hosmer, President
>SCI Foundation

This is the last I have been told.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Everyone here are some of the responses. Some of the link names are wrong but the content has the real title. I will fix the link names when I get time. But...as Aaron stated above...science is on our side.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...1002751/m/6381013581

For those of you that are interested, you should read the attachments in Lane's link above.

You can see who really is for continued Lion Hunting!

Wow! That's a very simple and direct to the point op-ed piece by Tanzania's director of wildlife. Interesting that the NY Times saw fit to publish it.