I find I'm in the minority on this. At least with other folks I know.

I actually like hunting with borrowed weapons. Most folks I know it's only something they will do if they have to (ie. airline lost it, scope broke...). But to do it on purpose is unthinkable. Don't get me wrong I love to use my own stuff. Practice with it. Work up loads. And finally prove it in the field. That's satisfying stuff for sure.

I just find borrowing a tried and true workhorse firearm satisfying. I've done this more than once and to me it forms a bond between owner and user.

I think back to when I took my Gemsbok as an example. The 30-06 Model 70 I borrowed had probably shot and seen more plainsgame through it's scope than I would in a lifetime. It was setup to use 180gr South African PMP ammo. Honestly, probably not what I'd feed it coming from the states. Still, I felt honored to use it. I was gonna do my best to add to the positive history of this weapon. The owner had done his part and I did mine.

I have never regretted using a borrowed firearm to take my gemsbok. To me, it added to the experience not subtracted from it.

I can't believe I'm alone in feeling this way. Though I feel I have little company.

I've got a friend that does just that. He never takes his own rifles to Africa and he has taken a majority of his Big Five and hippo using someone else's rifles and ammo. He hates that hassles connected with hauling his own guns over to the Dark Continent. Quite often he and his wife travel, either before or afterwards, on vacation to other countries and he doesn't want all of the bother and issues. It has worked for him and he's happy. That said, most of us demand to take our own. We have a definite bond with our own firearms, their history and the sentimentality of them, in relation to our own experiences. I personally like to sit in my trophy room at home, long after a Safari has been concluded, and pull out some of the rifles that I have used to hunt Africa and reminisce, or show them to other hunters and talk about the hunt, stalk, the bullet used, the shot, etc. etc. But, once again, that's what makes the world spin.

I just returned from a plains game hunt where 300 yard shots were the rule rather than the exception. I can't imagine shooting at an animal at 300 yards with a borrowed rifle -- being uncertain how it is sighted, uncertain of the trajectory of the unfamiliar ammunition, and finally, uncertain of its accuracy (not to mention trigger pull, stock fit, etc.)

Maybe shooting a borrowed rifle is okay for shots from a blind or under a hundred yards, but my comfort level would simply not be there.

Never, except in an emergency, would I hunt with a borrowed rifle.

I am as much a rifleman as I am a hunter, and my choice of rifle is as important to me as my choice of where and what to hunt.

It is a personal thing, of course.

I recently hunted in the Limpopo region of RSA in camp with several hunters from the US.Because I was going on to Europe after the hunt, taking a rifle was not really an option.I therefore arranged for the outfitter to supply a weapon.The first rifle they provided was a Saur 30-06 ,very well used with a walnut stock and a separate forearm.I complained that the stock was quite loose and they tried to repair it.It turned out that it was in need of significant repairs at at gunsmith because the stockbolt hade been stripped.
The second rifle they provided was a musgrave bolt action 7*57 with a one peice walnut stock and forearm.This also turned out to be loose with the front guard screw stripped and was just serviceable.
During sighting in it grouped about 6 inches at a 30yard target.I wasn't happy but I didn't have many options.During the hunt I tried to limit my shots to 50 yards or so and was succesfull at evrything I shot at this range.Early on they encouraged me to have a shot at a kudu bull at 150 yards and it was a complte miss. On the last day of the hunt they produced a 270 which din't have a loose stock and as it turned out I didn't get to use.
There were 5 PH's in the camp and rifle maintenance was not a priority with 2 of them including the one that guided us.
On previous hunts with NZ outfitters they all provided top of the line well maintained weopons.I was surprised at my African experience
I would be interested to know what others have experienced because I am organising my next trip to Africa now (different outfitter) and are planning to take my own rifle.

Would you go on a trip and use someone else's tooth brush? I feel the same way about using someone else's rifle. You just don't know where its been, like Momma used to say, don't you know. Kudude

Well, while I would like to use my own gun like everyone else, and have done just that on my only safari in 2006. However, I would like to go again and take a Cape Buffalo with a nice double rifle...but I would have to borrow it and I would not feel the least bit guilty for doing so if I was fortunate enough to know someone well enough to loan one to me. Not everyone can afford a double, even if they can save the money to go to Africa to hunt a buffalo. Would that pass the "pride of ownership" test? I am sure I am not the only one that dreams of this either. Different than the main topic here but quite the same too.

That's the trouble with renting rifles. It is a real crap shoot as to what you may find as your loaner. You may run into an oufit with a selection of Pre'64's topped with Swarovski scopes or an open sighted rifle that would make a better canoe paddle. The one time I rented a rifle it was Pre'64 375 with new 1.75x6 Leupold and it shot quite well.I think I was lucky.

Persoanlly I would rent rifles every time if I could get a well maintained, reasonably accurate 30-06 and 375 with decent scopes. Being able to depend on that is impossible though. I do think if safari companies could provide good rifles people would often leave their own weapons home.

Mark

As for me, I would never borrow firearms, golf clubs, underwear, toothbrushes, or wives. Especially firearms.

quote:

Originally posted by PSmith:
As for me, I would never borrow firearms, golf clubs, underwear, toothbrushes, or wives. Especially firearms.

Well, I would not borrow underwear or a toothbrush...

I have not taken my own rifle on my last five trips to Africa. I even borrowed a .416 Weatherby to take this lion in Zambia back in 1994.

The guns my friends down there have loaned me recently were .300 Win Mag (2), .30/06, .243, and 7 Rem Mag, and all carried good scopes. I made sure they were adjusted to shoot at least a 2-inch group 1-1/2 to 2 inches above point of aim at 100 yards before I hunted with them, and I had no problems.

I will be hunting a moose in Newfoundland in October and will borrow a rifle then, too.

I only shoot one or two animals per trip, and then go sightseeing and visiting friends in Botswana and South Africa, and lugging around a gun definitely is not worth the hassle, especially at border crossings.

But then I'm not a gun nut. Although I have a lot of them, a rifle to me is like a shovel -- it's a tool to get a job done. I never open my gun case, unless it's to grab a rifle for an upcoming trip. I never show my guns to friends, and I don't need to look at a gun to remember a hunt.

Bill Quimby

Actually I HAVE used my wifes toothbrush on several camping trips but I have NEVER used someone else's rifle to hunt with. If I could not take my own rifles I would not go I feel that strongly about the subject. Have no idea I can put into words WHY I feel this way I just always have. To me if I used someone else's rifle I might as well let him shoot the animal.

quote:

If I could not take my own rifles I would not go I feel that strongly about the subject. Have no idea I can put into words WHY I feel this way I just always have. To me if I used someone else's rifle I might as well let him shoot the animal.

DITTO !!

Geronimo

Ditto with the last two comments. Especially in dangerous game hunting, in a challenging hunt you must have your own rifle for safety and handling. A borrowed rifle gives you no comfort factor in bullet type, load, velocity, rifle handling, any problems in magazine screw-ups, sighting problems, etc, etc, etc,

Again, I would not go if I couldn't take my own rifles and ammo. If the airlines and SA screw around anymore with their punitive rules and regs, then they have lost me.

Dak

If I get to Africa and my rifles do not I will still hunt. It is about the hunt after all.

Do I have a strong preference for my own rifles? Yes I do, but in the end it is the hunt.

I really like the thought of hunting with my own firearm that I have practiced with on a hunt, however, it if didn't arrive I would use what was available. It would be disappointing tho. Prior planning will let you know what is there in camp in an emergency. I'm not sure if I would like the thought of renting/shooting an unknown rifle. Now, I have my own rifle in Namibia for any more trips I take back.

When I go to Texas to hunt deer, I always shoot my friend's rifle. I have been brow-beating him for 10 years, and he still won't sell it to me! I think he just keeps it for me; the scope gets adjusted 6 turns, and it is dead on - turn back and it is perfect for him until next year.

I'm with Charles_Helm on this one. It's about the hunt. I equate it to the senior prom. You need a limo so you rent one. And just because I like cars doesn't mean I have to buy the limo cause, I'll never use it again. There is no where in Texas I could realistically use a 375 H&H. My .338 & .270 are good for anything in the whole USofA. Would I like to have a .375? You bet. But spending a grand on something that, frankly, hurts just pulling the trigger on something I may use once is just not practical and lugging it around multiple airports is not fun either. That grand could be used to have that trophy mounted or to take another trophy.

i used to take my own guns but the hassle factor has increased to the point were it seldom is worth it. i am going to new caledonia in 10 days with a 1 day stop-over in sydney out bound and a 2 day stop-over returning. the outfitter has a 270 win and 300 win mag, both winchesters, i can use for free and he even furnishes the ammo. if i took my own rifle, i would have to pay for a New Cal. import permit( plus the paperwork crap) AND an australian import permit( or pay a storage broker). not worth the hassle or the money. 2 years ago in botswana, i took a leopard with rented ruger shotgun coming on a full charge, then a gemsbok that is currently #3 in the SCI book with a rented .375 h&h winchester model 70. when i look at them in my trophy room, i never even think about who owns the gun i shot them with.

The first animial I took in RSA was with a borrrowed Model 70, 30-06. Tracked that animial (blesbok) a couple miles. Most of the shots with my own rifle have never resulted in the animial going more than 100 yds. Want my own toy!

It's the difference between a rifle enthusiast and a hunter. If a firearm is just a tool and all you care about is just the hunt, then you won't care what you shoot provided it is a reliable rifle and sufficient for the animal. Personally, I would get upset if I had to shoot factory loads in my rifle while on a hunt.

I have a strong preference for using my own guns. The primary reason is the confidence that I have in that gun. In a strange land, surrounded by strangers, hunting a strange animal, I want to know that the rifle will place the bullet precisely where I want it.

Having said that, at some point I will take my Daughter to Africa. She is not a hunter, in fact she disagrees with hunting. On that trip we will primarily be sightseeing, probably in at least three countries. Taking a rifle would be impractical. I would like to hunt for a couple of days somewhere along the way. On that trip I will happily use a loaner. Hunting with a loaner beats not hunting.

TerryR

Do to the fact i'm US military I have used a number of barrowed weapons, I have also been able to hunt all over the world due to rank and travel, this past year I hunted several places in Africa with loaner guns one a 300win another a 30-06 and the other two a 404 jeff along with a 375HH, 2 win. a custom 17 and a older Ruger, 2 had older German optics and 2 with Leupolds all shot 1-in to 2-in groups I was very pleased with barrowed rifles I used, my only complaint was lack of slings on any of them my first hunt I was able to barrow one from a young man from Texas my other hunt US military issue.

Glad to be home.

"It's the difference between a rifle enthusiast and a hunter. If a firearm is just a tool and all you care about is just the hunt, then you won't care what you shoot provided it is a reliable rifle and sufficient for the animal...."

Well said, RAC.

I've known some very successful hunters, and have spent a lot of time and written books for such people as C.J. McElroy, Watson Yoshimoto, Hubert Thummler, Prince Abdorreza, Arnold Alward, David Hanlin and other Weatherby Award winners. They all had something in common: Not one was a "gun enthusiast." (All except the prince, who had rifles given to him by people and countries who wanted his favors, had only two or three rifles in their gun safes.) Each of them borrowed rifles when necessary and never looked back.

Bill Quimby

Bill,

I accept that (it is what it is) but will never as long as I live understand it.

But that is because I am a rifleman and care about the weapon I use. I care the same way about the hammer or screw driver or fountain pen I use or even the car I drive.

Every one of those is a choice I make and I have to put care and thought into it, always governed, of course, by budget.

It's just imponderable to me how someone without such budgetary concerns can be so uninvolved or uninvested in choice of rifle.

As others have said, push comes to shove and I'll throw rocks, but when I have a choice I will take it and make the most of it.

I think that you can be both a rifleman and a hunter. I love my rifles, shotguns and pistols and heaven knows, I have more than enough, but I also believe that there may be situations when you might have to use another's rifle. What if yours is lost, delayed or stolen? Or heaven forbid, the stock is broken at the wrist and unusable? There are many variables that can come into play which most of us don't want to think of. I personally take and use my own rifles and most are custom made. BUT, in the unlikely event I had to use another's I wouldn't hesitate nor would I ruin my Safari worrying about it. The PH's that I have used the last 5 Safaris have all had very good and servicable rifles, any of which I could have used with confidence. Maybe that's something many of us should seriously consider in booking Safaris long before we leave. Just a little bit of food for thought.

"It's just imponderable to me how someone without such budgetary concerns can be so uninvolved or uninvested in choice of rifle."

MR:

A rifle is merely a tool to add another animal to their already huge collections. If it shoots accurately enough and is appropriate for the animal they're hunting, it makes no difference to them who owns it. When they've shown me their favorite rifle it was obvious they didn't get much care -- they looked as if they'd been through two world wars and six John Wayne movies.

Bill Quimby

Well I have borrowed a 30-06 from my PH on my 1.5 hunting trips (1xone week and then couple of days slid into a photo trip).
I don't think it detracted, or added, to the experience in any way for me. My hunting buddy Fallow Buck took his own and would never have dreamed of borrowing.
Horses and courses!

What was the bullet, powder, energy on the 30-06?
No idea!
However I do know that I test fired it, felt comfortable with it, and killed everything with one shot.

To me the whole hunting experience is the hunting bit...the spotting, the sneaking, the stalking, the observing.
The trigger bit is the culmination, but to me the rifle is just a tool.

Sorry if that makes me an AR heretic!

This is obviously a very personal question. People hunt for various reasons and we all take something different from our experiences. I agree with those of you who say a rifle is just a tool. But what is the point in owning a “tool†if you are not going to use it?

I consider myself just as much a rifleman as a hunter, and being able to own a rifle that has been on many adventures with me is just as important as having a trophy to remind me of the experiences.

Someday when I go to that great hunting ground in the sky I’m going to leave a lot of animal heads to my heirs. But I am also going to leave to them my rifles in a hope that they will ad to the history of those weapons.

Hunting with our own rifles is like sharing a hunt with an old trusty friend that you know can help you out in tight situations.
I know it is a little romantic but for me is a very important part of the hunt.
Is like going to a honeymoon without your wife, racing a car, playing tennis, hockey, golf or whatever with someone else’s equipment.
Unfortunately the trend for using local rifles is rapidly increasing, but that does not mean we should diminish our shooting practice.

I have hunted in Scotland for Red Stag deer over the past 7 years with a borrowed 7MM mag or recently with a very fine new Merkel KR1 and have had ZERO problems taking fantastic game. I just shot waterfowl in Argentina with a new Beretta auto that I borrowed.

If your outfitter can assure you good firearm quality in-country, go for it. With the hassles associated with firearms and travel these days, borrowing or hiring firearms is so much worth the rental fee in my opinion.

READ THIS THREAD ON LOST GUNS IN AFRICA - The chance of this happening alone should help you make your decision!

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1411043/m/741106027

On my first safari to Namibia last year, my rifle made it but the bag containing my ammo, boots and the majority of my hunting equipment didn't. I hunted the first two days in borrowed boots with a borrowed rifle. It was inconvenient not having my own stuff, but I was thankful for the the well worn Model 70 in .270. I killed my Kudu and a gemsbok with that rifle. I'd much rather borrow or rent a rifle than not be able to hunt.

As an honorable and proud rifle and accuracy nut; Even if I had "borrowed a guys wife's rifle once I wouldn't admit to it!"

As a hunter I will admit that I did borrow a rifle once for a brief interlude while mine was hung up in transit, and while it was a different and not entirely unpleasant experience. I would't want to make a habit of it!

Mike

It's been a while since I have shot an animal with my own rifle. Most of the times since then was with CChunter's rifles. Last time was last year in June or July cannot remember exactly.

Now, recently it was my springbuck and red hartebeest in Namibia in the Kalahari.

Otherwise my rifle has been used to hunt a couple of game by CF-Stolt.

It is of course nice to shoot with your own rifle but the hunt is the thing that matters. Obviously the borrowed weapons must be in pristine condition.

quote:

Originally posted by TheBigGuy:
I find I'm in the minority on this. At least with other folks I know.

I actually like hunting with borrowed weapons. Most folks I know it's only something they will do if they have to (ie. airline lost it, scope broke...). But to do it on purpose is unthinkable. Don't get me wrong I love to use my own stuff. Practice with it. Work up loads. And finally prove it in the field. That's satisfying stuff for sure.

I just find borrowing a tried and true workhorse firearm satisfying. I've done this more than once and to me it forms a bond between owner and user.

I think back to when I took my Gemsbok as an example. The 30-06 Model 70 I borrowed had probably shot and seen more plainsgame through it's scope than I would in a lifetime. It was setup to use 180gr South African PMP ammo. Honestly, probably not what I'd feed it coming from the states. Still, I felt honored to use it. I was gonna do my best to add to the positive history of this weapon. The owner had done his part and I did mine.

I have never regretted using a borrowed firearm to take my gemsbok. To me, it added to the experience not subtracted from it.

I can't believe I'm alone in feeling this way. Though I feel I have little company.

There is no accounting for how a man enjoys his safari, and I can see the joy in handling an old rifle that has paid it's dues in Africa, to take African game.

This is why most of the African style rifles, I've owned over the years, and used in Africa, have been those that were there many times before me! This is why I buy OLD double rifles that I know have taken all sorts of things in Africa, or India, or both. Even a fairly new double rifle I own today, had taken two elephant, and three buffalo, by it's first owner.

I, too, love the history these rifles show in the honest rubbed bluing, and dents in the stocks, which tell of hunts long ago! I want to own these rifles, though, and add as much history to them as I can, and leave them to my sons, so they can add to it as well. A real hunting rifle is not owned by anyone really, but is simply cared for, for a time, then passed on!

I suppose a man can find joy is handling someone else's rifle,while they still own it, but the rifle sitting on my lap while I watch the film of a safari I took with it, is the real thing, to me.

If there was only one way to enjoy a safari, then we probably would all like the same women, and all drive the same automobiles, and all live in the same type of house. What a boring thing that would be, so to each, his own!

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
The first animial I took in RSA was with a borrrowed Model 70, 30-06. Tracked that animial (blesbok) a couple miles. Most of the shots with my own rifle have never resulted in the animial going more than 100 yds. Want my own toy!

That is because a scope zeroed for one man is not on for another man, and unless the scope is re-zeroed, you better not take a very long shot on game unless you want a gut shot animal to track!

Hunting with a borrowed rifle? Might as well use another man's "wedding tackle" in more personal endeavors.

Kind of like adultry, is it?

"I suppose a man can find joy is handling someone else's rifle, while they still own it, but the rifle sitting on my lap while I watch the film of a safari I took with it, is the real thing, to me."

I find no joy in handling someone else's rifle -- nor my own rifles, for that matter. Firearms are merely metal and wood to me. I have a lot of them (too many, really), but I can truthfully say I haven't touched more than two or three of them in the past dozen years.

What joy I find in hunting comes from being with good companions in scenic surroundings, and seeing for the first time the animal I am hunting and then making that animal mine. The rifle or bow or rock I might use to kill that animal is unimportant.

I can't imagine myself with a rifle on my lap while watching a film of one of my hunts.

Bill Quimby

I've hunted both ways in Africa. I live in Korea, but my father brought my rifle with him from the States. I loved hunting with that rifle, a very nice Steyr Model S in .308Norma Mag. This year my father wasn't joining me so I borrowed firearms from the PH. Both of them have been in his family for years and taken more game than I'll ever see in my life. I will say that the .243 we used for Impala and Bushbuck wa a love/hate type relationship. It was heavy and I never really got it to shoot as well as I'd like on paper, but it got the job done out to 120m even with the crappy (in my opinion) Tasco 4x scope mounted on it in fading light. The .223 was a dream to shoot, an old Sauer IIRC. It too was topped by Tasco glass.

I'll go next summer and more than likely use the PHs rifles again. Either was, it is still hunting and the tools fit the job.

I guess it all depends upon whether you are a dedicated rifleman, addicted to loads, trajectories etc, or whether you are a hunter for whom a rifle is a tool. If the latter, you will probably find something appropriate to rent. Me, i wouldnt be caught dead without MY loads and My rifles, just because a large part of the enjoyment of the hunt for me is using my stuff!
Each to his own, no one is superior to the other.