With all the talk of controlled feed stoppers ect.
Who would refuse to hunt with a PH that had a pushfeed stopper rifle?
Harry Selby retired his .416 and used a pushfeed M70 .458, as did the late Finn Aagaard. Who would say no to hunting with these, and others who use them?

I would hunt with Selby or Aagaard if they were using slingshots.

Blasphemy!

St. Finn Aagaard used a 458 Win. Mag that started life as a 425 Westley Richards Mauser 98. He rebarreled it to 458 WM. Ghost ring sighted and battered by good use, his son inherited it when he passed.

His 375 H&H was Winchester M-70, with a low power scope, 2.5 X, IIRC. His other son got that.

Please do not profane the memory of St. Finn!

I cannot speak for Selby, but I will for Aagaard.

Finn thought the 458 Win.Mag. was very adequate. In his later days he was ready to split the difference between the 375 and 458 and go with a 416 Rem.Mag. as an all around gun, but I am sure it would have been a CRF.

When did Finn ever PH with a pushfeed? If he ever fell on such hard times, I am sure he had sense enough to remedy the situation ASAP!

Come on! Are you serious?

Africans, ph's in particular, are very good at getting by with what they can and what they have. Most of them have not been informed of the inferiority of the lowly push feed. It has served them for many years...why change now.

I have a client hunting Elephant in Zimbabwe right now. I know for a fact his ph is using a Remington 700 in .416 to back him up.

Yes, I sleep fine at night, thank you.

It is only this bunch of internet geeks (me included) that thinks that all the ph's in Africa are CR feed purist. That's pure BS.

No, I would not have any problem hunting with a ph who used a crappy little push feed rifle.

Sorry to break it to you DaggaRon, but Aagaard also had a pushfeed M70 .458, maybe he only used it for warthog!

TSJ,
I had one too, but I got rid of it pretty quick, soon as I got dry behind the ears.

Finn had no use for one after he rebarreled the old 425 WR M-98, long ago. The stock may have been patched and repaired, and the rifle worn ugly as sin, but he didn't use a pushfeed 458 unless he was way down on his luck, for a brief period, like a one night stand before sainthood.

Hey RAB
If you have anymore of those awfull push feed rifles, send them down my way, I'll get rid of those nasty things for you

Bakes

Bakes,
All I got left is varmint rifles in pushfeed. I can live with those.

Arghh! Dragging up the folly of Finn's youth! He wised up eventually. I think his last words on his death bed were "Make mine Mauser ..."

[ 06-23-2002, 04:42: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

I've read most of Finn's articles.He used a push feed Model 70 458 with a Williams peep for YEARS.He retired it when he has the WR 425 made into a 458-not because it was CRF,only because he liked the rifle better.He held on to that push feed Model 70 until the day he died too.

I think the whole push feed and CRF is a bunch of bull anyway.I've used em both,and have had failures with both.They'll both fail.

Here's a question-has ANYONE ever gotten stomped or chewed on due to a push feed malfunction?

Buffalobwana is right-only folks with too much time on their hands fuss over CRF and push feeds for dangerous game.Most PHs don't know,and if they do they don't care for the most part.

Heck,10 years ago nobody gave a hoot in hell about CRF or push feed when it came to any kind of game.Now it's more popular than the 270 vs. 30/06 arguement.

Gimme a break.

DaggaRon's take on Aagaards .458 is alot more fun then the truth, better stick with your version.

TSJ,
O.K., you are of course correct, Finn called his push feed M-70 African a (shudder) "stopping rifle."

He claimed to have messed with various push feeds, and admitted that he had several failures to extract due to dirt/debris gumming up the works with the M-70 push feed extractor. He said it never would have happened with his preferred CRF. A chapter in one of his books was indeed entitled "Make Mine Mauser." I have religiously read, clipped and filed all the Aagaard articles from the early 80's until late, and have both of his books. April 3, 2000 was a sad day.

He was not a fanatical CRF'er in his younger days, but experience and the wisdom of age sure converted him. Let's face it, when you are a working PH raising a family, you have to make do with what you can get, and sometimes that is a PF.

Now, rest in peace, Finn. A wise man admits his mistakes and helps others to see the light, as you have.

Would I let Finn back me up with a PF? What a silly thought! He would of course insist on a CRF.

Would I let some unknown back me up with a PF? Only if I had a CRF in my hands.

This geek is out of here!

RAB,

This geek is out of here!

I am not saying I would not prefer my ph have a CRF. It is a better choice. I am just saying we have too much time on our hands here. We sit at our computers typing and debating the smallest details of reloading and PF vs CRF and this and that when it doesn't amout to a hill of beans in the real world.

The fact of the matter is a bunch of these guys do use PF rifles, quite well I might add. I am sure they know that a CRF is better, but hey, THAT is the the real world.

Did you guys hear the latest rumor? Seems some of these guys are using 375 H&H to back up their clients. Has no one told them these are now considered inferior as a true stopper? Have they not seen the numbers? 500 grain bullet traveling at least 2150 fps creating a muzzel energy of at least 5314 ft lbs is now considered the minimum?

Meanwhile RAB and the rest of us geeks debate away....

[ 06-23-2002, 07:12: Message edited by: Buffalobwana ]

People,
I beg your pardon, but what does it means a geek? I'm trying to extend my English vocabulary, but when I don't find a word on the dictionary I feel to loose the best part of teh topic
Bye (by an Italian boy)

Buffalbwama, A.J. used that remmington safari grade because it was given to him. He uses the gun because it was the right price----free. Is someone had given him a rigby/holland or a lowly Model 70 we wouldn' be having this talk. Who would be fool enough to give away a Holland/Rigby/Jeffery/mod.70 anyway?????
lb404

While I am at it, The only true custon rifles I have seen made on remington actions(not that blueprinted trash with plastic stocks) have been the rare use of a left hand action a-la - Sir Boddington. Lets see now Purdy offers a new and improved model at 22K and guess what, it has a push to feed action----NOT. Even when Rigby ran out of Magnum actions to produce their line of rifles they didn't rush out to make a special deal with Remington for actions, they took the 602 and made a wonderful rifle with it. So lest we forget, the reason for the push to feed rifle was the search for a cheaper design to work with and not to improve quality. The reason Winchester moved to the New action in 64 was to compete with remingtons cheapness! They recanted that philosopy later and began making the classic. If all of those PH's had their choice of rifles in a bunch laid out on the ground---which one do you think they would choose. I frnkly don;t know but I do have a suspicion.
lb404

Steve, A geek is one who works with computers or computer systems. Programmers, system admins, etc.

Fred Bouwman
Network Admin Geek

quote:

---

Originally posted by Steve Malinverni:
People,
I beg your pardon, but what does it means a geek? I'm trying to extend my English vocabulary, but when I don't find a word on the dictionary I feel to loose the best part of teh topic
Bye (by an Italian boy)

---

What is the title of Aagaard's second book, the only one I can find mentioned is "Aagaard's Africa : A Hunter Remembers?" You would think that someone would reprint these. -Fred

CRF. A chapter in one of his books was indeed entitled "Make Mine Mauser." I have religiously read, clipped and filed all the Aagaard articles from the early 80's until late, and have both of his books. April 3, 2000 was a sad day.

He was not a fanatical CRF'er in his younger days, but experience and the wisdom of age sure converted him. Let's face it, when you are a working PH raising a family, you have to make do with what you can get, and sometimes that is a PF.

Now, rest in peace, Finn. A wise man admits his mistakes and helps others to see the light, as you have.

Would I let Finn back me up with a PF? What a silly thought! He would of course insist on a CRF.

Would I let some unknown back me up with a PF? Only if I had a CRF in my hands.

This geek is out of here![/QB][/QUOTE]

I knew Finn as well or better than anyone on this board..He used a pushfeed out of necessity for a short time only...His old 375 with a 2.5X Weaver was a pre 64 with homemade cross bolts, it went without a stock for awhile and he used a pushfeed 375 during that interim as related to me by him...His other gun was the 425 conversion to 458 and it was a Mauser...Finn WAS a beliver in control feed rifles.

I book hunts for Mark Selby and I know Harry and both of them are definately control feed fans..Today Mark uses a 450-400 given to him by his godfather, Robert Ruark....Harry used a 375 pushfeed for about a year or so after he shot the barrel out of his heavy taper barreled pre-64 Win. He couldn't find a control feed replacement and therfore got a pushfeed, which he replace a short time later with a standard weight pre 64 375, which he liked much better than the heavy taper pre 64....

Thats the real story on Aagard and Selby....

Many Ph's are not particularly gun savvy, some carry any old gun in ratted out condition and these guys should have remained farmers.

A good PH, who takes his business seriously and knows the score, and one who hunts primarily dangerous game will carry a double or a control feed rifle....Just because a man is a PH does not make him a good one, they come in all sizes...

Sure I know a few who don't carry control feed guns but I KNOW the vast majority have control feed rifles and many of them, particularly in Tanzania and zimbabwe have doubles and English bolt guns which are highly prized in those countries where dangerous game is the name of the game....

I see a lot of pushfeeds in RSA and Namibia, where the PH's are mostly farmers with a license and hunt DG only on rare ocassions in the northern areas of RSA and then only with the resident PH there..

How many here have hunted African Dangerous game with a PH who was useing a PF back-up rifle?

I have not only not hunted with a PH who was useing a PF DGR, but have never personally seen one being carried by a PH. I would say that most of the PHs I've seen were useing BRNO 602s, or One of the NAME rifles, made on Mauser, or Mod 70 CRF actions!

The only PHs who have stated they use PF DGRs are on this website, and that ain't many, because a full 90% of the PHs who post here use CRF actions, or double rifles, for Back up!

Maybe I've just not seen them, but my experience tells me they prefere CRF, in thier bolt action back up rifles. I have seen some light rifles that are push feed owned by PHs, usually in the 243, to 270 Win range, used for camp meat!

The geek is back:

Wendell,
You sure have a lot of time to kill, repeating yourself.

Fred,
The other book by Finn was _Finn Aagaard on Hunting Rifles and Cartridges_. It was a 1990 compilation of of the NRA magazine articles primarily.

Steve,
"Geek" is an old slang term that has two traditional meanings that are quite different, a sort of English irony:

1. A carnival performer who performs sensationally morbid or disgusting acts, as biting off the head of a live chicken.

2. Person, fellow: "He's a perfectly pleasant old geek."

Lately it has fallen in with "nerd" and "dweeb" as a derogatory term of about the same meaning.

"Geezer" is a slang term for "an odd character," but it gets used mostly for the elderly.

I am probably more of a geezer than any of the above. When I get a little older I will fully qualify for geezerhood.

I wouldn't have gotten involved in this thread if Saint Finn hadn't been smeared by association without explanation of his true feelings on PF versus CRF. He was an honest, humble, wise man who was into nobody's pockets. Yes, he got stuck with a push feed for a while, but he soon figured out what was what.

My ph on my buff hunt used a M700 Rem in 416Rem. However, he was very young; did not have the money for a Mauser or W70 in a large caliber; and was not into guns generally.

It did not bother me when he had it. What bothered me was his tendency to wander off without it while scouting about.

I remember I had to sort out the scope on his M700 300Win Mag to use it on the last day of our hunt. It was sufficiently buggered that it essentially was not parallel to the bore. I could not fix it because it had those Nosler Torex screws and my tools had left with my rifle. After the hunt, I sent him one of the Nosler Torex wrenches.

In fairness to him, another ph, an Englishman and former SAS, had buggered up the mount/ring engagement. Somethings should not be done with a Leatherman! Ku-dude

I would have hunted with either guy (plus Seyfried) regardless of what they carried.

I'm with Mac; I don't rely on the PH to save my bacon. I want him for his knowledge of the game, knowledge of the area, superior experience, linguistic skills, driving, and companionship.

I'm there to mix it up with mbogo or chui or simba, not to give the PH another notch in his stock.

George

Wendell,
You are not getting off that easy!

You have been intellectually dishonest or inconsistent in pandering to the Push Feed, yet saying you prefer the CRF yourself.

There must be some reason why you prefer the CRF.

That is what is important.

You are like a whore in church. Are you sweating yet?

HYPOCRITE!

IRP

I met Selby in Botswana, he had a pushfeed M70 with him in .458. I talked to him about it, and he said with his handloads, he liked it just fine. Maybe he only used it for the one hunt, but thats not the picture I got.

Ib404...I agree with you. It was economics that gave us push feed.
MacD37...I hunted buffalo last year with a PH who used a ragged out Rem 700 416 rem mag. He may have known the difference between pf and crf but he's entirely too tight to pay the difference. Not only was his rifle a rag so was his landcruiser.

I was just sent an article by Bodington,with a picture, in which he states.
"Harry Selby has semi-retired his .416 and uses a post 64 win 70 in .458 that he has absolute faith in" It seems I remember Aagaard also carried his Win .458 as back-up on one of those tex/mex wild bull hunts, it would seem he didnt dismiss the pushfeed entirely either.
I'm not saying these PH's and others dont prefer CRF, but they are used.
Not trying to pick a fight Ray, just offering proof to what I said.

Dang! All this time I thought a Geek was someone who bit the heads off of chickens in the circus "ala" ozzie osborne. A "NERD" is the computer guy (the guys that were nerds in high school, are the guys we are working for today).

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fred Bouwman:
Steve, A geek is one who works with computers or computer systems. Programmers, system admins, etc.

Fred Bouwman
Network Admin Geek

quote:

---

Originally posted by Steve Malinverni:
People,
I beg your pardon, but what does it means a geek? I'm trying to extend my English vocabulary, but when I don't find a word on the dictionary I feel to loose the best part of teh topic
Bye (by an Italian boy)

---

---

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Atkinson:
[QB]I knew Finn as well or better than anyone on this board..

Really Mr. Bwana?
Do you know Soren Lindstrom as well? They grew up in Kenya together as did I. If you knew Finn that well can you please tell us when and were you met him?

Wendell, you forgot about red headed women. Unless of course you were intent on including them in the sex category. I need to go to your website and check up on the specials.

Try not to mope around too long with hurt feelings. We all still love you.

Glen.

Oh great! Mondele The Magnificent Dumb Ass is still around.

Surely Finn wouldn't associate with the likes of that trash in his later years, sort of like push feeds don't ya know? When young and ignorant you don't know any better.

Of course this is hypothetical, for Mondele is a legend in his own mind. A legend of stupidity only.

[ 06-25-2002, 23:59: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

Mmmmmhhhh, I'm not sure if I'm happy or not of the explications about geek or nerd or dweeb.
This because I'm afraid to be one in one of these categories as Software Configuration Manager.
But if I have to choose one, I'd prefer to be a geek, that sounds well also in italian, it recall the name of a geco, a nice lizard.
Nerds in fact, for an Italian recalls the s**t word as sound.
And more over I never been a computer guy,I became a SCM before having a pc in my house.

500 grns,
You arent reading.
The article by Boddington had a picture with Selby and a pushfeed M70 .458, easy to see that in the pic. I talked to Selby, with same , (or just like it) .458. re-read what I said. It just confirms he used it at least some of the time. He didnt even hang his head and scuff his shoes, embarresed when he talked about it.

TSJ,
That must be a very old article by Boddington that someone sent you.

I recall reading of a collector in the USA that owned Selby's 416 Rigby. How many did he have anyway?

Is Selby still hunting? I thought he semi-retired himself to Harry's Bar in Maun.

If he fawns over a 458 PF, then he has truly seen geezerhood come and go. Likely he just wanted the cash from his Rigby for retirement. The 458 PF is just a cheap substitute used as an expedient prop mostly, while the younger PH's sort it out with CRF's, undoubtedly.

Why don't we get Harry Selby to tell us about it himself.

Todd E,
Here is your chance to be reborn as Harry Selby. Think you can pull it off? Oh yeah, kiss ol' Spot.

DaggaRon,
I see him back in 93 or 94, and the article was from one of those G&A periodicles, so yes I'd say it too was fairly old. Selby had his .416 too, did you know it was a standard mauser, opened up front and back to handle .416 R!