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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting 45-70 Vs .404 JefferyGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| 45-70 Vs .404 Jeffery | Login/Join |
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All, As many may already know the .404 Jeffery is considered by many to be one of the famous African and Indian Dangerous game cartridges. Having taken more than its share of the nasty critters. The .404 Jeffery pushes a 400 grain bullet at between 2200 - 2300 fps for an MPE of 4350. The 45-70 on the other hand can easily handle a 430 grain bullet at 2100 - 2150 for an mpe of 4415. Comparibly speaking these two rounds are pretty much in the same ballpark for energy with the heavier 45-70 probably penetrating a little deeper than the .404. Keeping in mind the quicker follow-up shot capability in the lever-action (providing the shooter is up to it) the 45-70 would in my opinion even have the edge. Both cartridges are old. .404 being chambered in the English cartridges has a longer history of use in Africa and Imperial India. So it naturally has the better reputation on D/G in those areas. The 45-70 however would either equal or surpass the .404 Jeffery with the proper bullet loading. I know some may disagree with this but I wouldnt (reprinted article I posted on another forum) | ||
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Hahahaha you see you mopes. You can't argue with the #'s Hahahaha | |||
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Methinks you are full of shit. First off the .404 has a higher sectional density allowing greater penetration. It also has a higher b.c. which means your 45-70 loses velocity at a much faster rate. Not to mention the fact you are comparing mild jeffery loads to very hot 45-70 loads. Case Closed. You lose!    | |||
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The .404 Jeffery load is the traditional load. Yes there are hotter loads but this is the load that made the round famous. As to penetration, I have to disagree with the old thought on greater SD equals deeper penetration. The old .404J and the Hot loaded 45-70 are almost ballistaclly equivalent. C | |||
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OK you want to compare traditional loads. A max load with lymans 420 grain mold is between 1200-1450 fps and that's with smokeless powder not the "traditional" blackpowder load. As far as what you think about sectional density, you don't know shit so take your 45-70 and get the fuck out!  | |||
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die | |||
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Another mope with no experience.  See your dumb ass on the new forum. You may learn something there. C | |||
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Hey mope, that is old outdated information for trapdoor loads. Get your head out of your behind and buy a new manual. C | |||
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No more outdated than what you quote for the Jeffery, you dumb motherfucker! Now go away Douchebag no one wants you here. I am done responding to you after this post and yes you are a dumb douchebag who probably doesn't even hunt. You tree-hugging rump-ranger. I bet you've never even shot a jeffery. Go play with yourself on your own site.  | |||
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Quote: Put him on ignore and this is all you will see... "*** You are ignoring this user *** " | |||
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Carmott/S, I hope you are not running out of steam mate. You seem to die off a lot like Scott S does. I see you have still not had the guts to anything remotely interesting yet. C.H.I.C.K.E.N.S.H.I.T Karl. | |||
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Running out of steam?? C'mon do you really think so?? With the new forum I am just a bit busy at the moment. However when I have something to say it is said. You oughta know mope, I have told you what a moron you are several times over already See ya on the new forum ya (you know what) C | |||
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Quote: fssssss......... | |||
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Quote: Uh, you might want to check some load books. Your loads are certainly exceeding 55,000 CUP, if at the standard COL. One can modify the 1895 to take a longer cartridge length, and with ball powders you might get down to around 45,000. Hodgdon has the hottest .45-70 data I've seen for the 1895, and they don't go beyond 40,000. The loads you're running are probably well into the proof load range, and that is assuming Marlin is proofing them relative to the hottest loads Hodgdon publishes. Then again, they only need proof them relative to the 28,000 SAAMI spec. Best wishes... | |||
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What load do you have that pushed a 420gr at 2100 fps safely through a Marlin 1895? | |||
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No they are not exceedeing 55,000 cup. They are approximately around 42,000 CUP, but regardless the 1895 action is the same as the 450 marlin action and others with higher CUP ratings. The proof range is there specifically due to 45-70 loads and old Trapdoor style rifles. Everyone know this. I have put plenty of these rounds through my Marlin without exhibiting the slightest sign of pressue, (a sore shoulder yes) pressure? No. C | |||
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POP, Try 59.0 grains of Rel 7 in your 45-70 with a HC 420gr pill for ~ 2120fps and 44000 CUP +/-. No pressure signs, either. I guess Carmelo isn't completely full of sh t. Not shot in a Marlin though. It was a Winchester and also in a Pedersoli Sharp repro. | |||
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Show me where I've erred. Quickload shows that 59g R7 would fill 114% case capacity. 49gr should yield 2100fps at 57665 psi. I don't think I would put this in a Marlin. | |||
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Quote: Actually, the .450 Marlin is fairly mild. It's loaded to 2100 fps with 350 gn. Hodgdon's pressure barrel finds such performance at under 40,000 psi, and the CUP value, if it existed, would likely be lower yet. Yes, there were hotter cartridges loaded in the 1895. I think the 52,000 CUP .307 was for a while, but one should not assume those model 336's were of the same steel and heat treatment as used on the current .45-70 frames. As to the sticky extraction test, the 1895 doesn't care about CUP, the brass does. Flowing brass makes extraction sticky. The gun cares about breech thrust. The .45-70 is fatter than the .307, and it's lower pressure is applied over a bigger area. Further, I see no reason to believe Marlin is proofing a 28,000 CUP .45-70 gun for the .307 which is no longer being chambered. Given the number of hot conversions being done, I suspect they do proof it for more, maybe even 40,000; but I do believe your loads are well beyond this. Alliant's pressure barrel finds a 385 gn cast bullet with 45 gn of R-7 to already have reached 25,000 CUP. There's no way 57 gn of R-7 under 430 gn is going to be only 42,000 CUP. Not if you're running it through a stock 1895. The single shots can be loaded to a COL of 2.9" or so and that should get the pressure down into the upper 40's. At 2.55", the Powley computer figures such performance as you two quote at 55,000 CUP. QuickLOAD estimates pressures in the high 50's (psi). I've never seen either of these tools to be off that much when relating pressure and fps. Garrett's 420 gn .45-70 +P loads are 35,000 psi and they run only 1850 fps. It's your face, guys; put it behind what loads you want. That locking lug on the 1895 is just not very big. I've no doubt it will take your loads for some time. There is, however, NO doubt you're cutting out much of the margin. | |||
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