The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting What Are The Laws In ZimbabweGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| What Are The Laws In Zimbabwe | Login/Join |
| One of Us |
Gents, After posting the first thread about a Buff Hunt Raffle, all sorts of negitive feedback flooded the site. All but one post I ignored. The worrisome post seemed to infer that hunting a Cape Buffalo, with a 45/70, would be illegal. I just finished reading the concluding article in Rifle Magazine, by Brian Pearce, about his sojurn to Zimbabwe. Not only did he shoot a Bull Buff, he also accidently did in Cow. His rifle, a Marlin Lever and his load a heavy 45/70 by Corbon. My question, was what he did illegal? If I would have lucked out and won the Raffle, I would have accepted the advice of the PH doing the hunt. This apparently is an acceptable practice in Zimbabwe. What are the laws or the rules as to hunting DG in Zim? Roger QSL | ||
|
| one of us |
We need to be careful talking about min energy levels as sometimes the listed factory ballistics are a bit "optimistic".....have any of you run some factory 375 H&H loads thru a chronograph especially using a 22" barrel. Woops they won't make the grade. Kevin Robertson, author of The Perfect Shot suggests loading the 375 H&H down to below 2400 fps to get penetration and again you are below the magic level. And, not wanting to add to the 45-70 debate, consider the 45-70's modern cousin the 450 Marlin ...used in a bolt-action rifle the required 4000 ftlb of ME is not all that hard to reach with bullets from 300-400gr....and I'm not advocating it for buff, just saying "It's Legal". | |||
|
| one of us |
Well said! | |||
|
| one of us |
Quote: Hey 500grains, How about enabling your private message capability. You certainly felt free to use that system to contact me, but I seem to be unable to return the favor. I would like to reply to your delightful missive. Regards from an old Physics major (That means I have taken Physics 101, and passed it) | |||
|
| Administrator |
Gentlemen, Has anyone had his gun or ammo checked before he shot any game in Africa by any official to see if it is lawful or suitable to be use for such a purpose? I doubt it very much. The 45-70 did kill this buffalo, and I have no doubt it has been used in the past, and will be used in the future. Those who originally set the laws, did they base their decision on some scientific tests that a specific amount of foot pounds of energy, bullets weight and diameter is required to kill any specific animal? Let us forgot buffalo for a second, and talk about plains game. Isn't the 270 Winchester illegal to hunt eland with in Zimbabwe? How many people have shot eland with it? I am afraid this argument is no better than the one we have here sometimes on ethics. What one can consider ethical methods of hunting, others might not. | |||
|
| Administrator |
500grains, I will bet a million to one that EACH one of us breaking one stupid law or another by just going about his life each day. Laws are supposed to make sense. This one most definitely does NOT, hence why people break it, as those who have used the 45-70 - or even lesser cartridges - have proven time and again. May I also remind you of your own advice. It is fine discussing the subject at hand, but very impolite to be rude to your host  | |||
|
| One of Us |
Saeed, I have no doubt that you ignore the laws you do not like in your own country. But it is impolite to do it as a guest in someone else's country. | |||
|
| new member |
If one wants laws to be respected, then one must make respectable laws. | |||
|
| one of us |
Illegal behavior aside, the laws are rather subjective i.e. bad law. As long as they allow people to hunt the damn things with archery, muzzleloaders and pistols, who am I to judge someone much farther up on the insanity scale. If the PH will allow it, it's his problem. | |||
|
| Administrator |
Peter, You are right of course in what you have said. I just don't pay attention when people start quoting foot pounds of energy or bullet diameters for specific animals. I used to see article in American hunting magazine about not recommending one to use a 243 Winchester for deer, and a few pages further, they publish a story, with photos, of someone who has shot a deer with a 357 magnum. The illogic of arm-chair hunters I suppose. | |||
|
one of us |
Yes in theory it is illegal ..... we all know that the minimum stated caliber for cape buffalo hunting in Southern Africa is .375 ..... now that is a basic fact that is widely published .. Now of cource any one can start to push the envelope and nit pick around that regulation and say they used this and that caliber successfully, but it is like everything in life untill something goes wrong nothing is said and we all live happly ever after .. Now lets take the hypothetical case, and dont laugh as this can occur .. The PH & client might shall we say overlook the rules or bend them slightly, of cource the PH will be the one in trouble NOT the hunter as he is the master of the hunt so to speak, and has FULL knowledge of the rules ... Now pray tell what happins if the worst case scenario occured and the buff was wounded and killed the hunter whom was using an illegal caliber ( forget whether you and I think it is OK ) if it is illegal then the PH and his company or the company he represents are in for the HIGH JUMP and rather him than me trying to explain or bullshit his way out of the mess .. Dont tempt fate to be a bloody hero or a gun nut with blind faith or stupidity, ignorance of the law is not an excuse and I dont see why anyone in their right mind wants to challenge it by ignoring it ... If you believe that strongly you have a case for change then why NOT try to convince all the PH's to get it changed !! Peter | |||
|
| one of us |
Saeed, you are right that weapons are never checked before the actual hunting takes place. However, on most hunting permit applications, one is required to state the calibers that are expected to be used for the hunt. Of course one can have a heavy and a lighter caliber and in Mr. Pearce's case, maybe the 45-70 was listed as his "lighter" caliber and hence not questioned by the licensing authorities. However, my opinion is that so long as the caliber used to hunt buffalo is not being selected merely "to see if it will kill", then that is fine. Hunting buffalo should not be a game or a "ballistic experiment". It is the PH's responsability to ensure that an adequate caliber is being used and the laws followed. Lastly there is a difference if I break a trivial law that does not endanger anybody or if I break a law that could get someone hurt  And by this I am not saying that a 45-70 cannot kill a cape buff   Happy hunting! | |||
|
| One of Us |
The minimum buff caliber in Zim is a 9.3 mm generating 3909 ft lbs of energy. The hottest 45-70 load that is not mere fantasy data develops 3200 ft lbs, and almost all loads, especially the heavy bullet loads, generate under 3000 ft. lbs. What Mr. Pearce did was illegal and he should be ashamed of himself. | |||
|
One of Us |
regarding laws and calibers I think the best example of BS is right here in the states....several places I'm aware of include Wisconsin where any centerfire is legal for deer.....(possible exception of .17 Remington) Minnesota requires a caliber over .23 and 1.75" minimum in length unless the bullet diameter is .35 caliber or larger. That law was set specifically to exclude two populare rifles in the 1930 the .25-20 and the .30-20. Nebraska allows any cartridge that produces 900 foot pounds at 100 yerds. Texas, California, and Montana allow the .22-250 and .220 Swift while many other states don't. My point is that even governments don't agree on what should be allowed. Further if the .220 Swift is adequate, it should be adequate everywhere. Having said that I will also say that in forty years of deer hunting, I've been checked for licenses and checked for transportation legalities many times. I have absolutely never been asked what my rifle was chambered in. From that I can say that at least in the USA it's a law that just isn't enforced anywhere. | |||
|
| one of us |
People have been injured or killed when big bores like .470s, etc. have been used so restriction laws don't insure good health, hence the name DG. I for one think the .338 winnie is being spat upon by the caliber restriction laws. | |||
|
one of us |
I took another look at the Brian Pearce articles in Rifle magazine, and he was hunting in the Bubiana Conservancy in Zim. This is a private holding, and technically not a Campfire or government concession. I have been told by locals in Zim that using a .45-70 on private lands is not illegal, although it might be inadvisable. jim dodd | |||
|
| one of us |
I still maintain vehemently, good or bad law is not the debate, is it legal, and if not, dont complain get the law changed, which will be more difficult than finding Bin Laden If we all had our way there would be no laws but we dont live in a perfect world shoot straight and as the Xperts always say, use enoough gun Peter | |||
|
| One of Us |
If the PH's of Zimbabwe agreed with LEO, they would take steps to have the laws changed. Obviously they do not agree with LEO and the other 45-70 nuts. | |||
|
one of us |
Quote: Saeed, that is not the question, the question is the 45-70 illegal! Quote: Homes were bugelerized in the past, and I'm sure they will be in the future, but that doesn't make burgelery legal, because they weren't cought! Quote: Let's talk about ethics! Do you think it is alright to break the law, simply because you do not get caught? the same people here talking about this being OK, will cry like a pig hung under a gate, when they hear of a poacher killing a whitetail out of season, or takeing only the horns, and leaving the meat to rot! Why, because it is illegal, and ethics dictate you abide by the law, even when nobody is looking! ETHICS are doing the legal thing when nobody is watching! Not just when you may be cought! You know, wel I stole money from the till, but nobody cought me, so my conscience is clear!  IMO, "because I want to", is no excuse for doing illegal things! The 45-70, like snares, is illegal for cape buffalo, and that should be enough reason not to use it for cape buffalo! Call abideing by the law, what you want, I call that ETHICS! The above opinion is worth exactly what you are paying for it, "Nothing", to anyone but me, it seems!  | |||
|
| one of us |
leo That is a [ typical response ] from an anonomous guest, maybe a bit of decency in speech might be more forthcoming as most of the forum guests like to contribute without being castigated in those terms you use .. thanks for the kind consideration in future postings Peter | |||
|
| one of us |
Lots of discussion going on here, with only a few knowing squat about Africa...The 9.3x62 with a handload will be legal and that law was passed by white Africans, not Mugabe BTW.... I agree that anywhere in Africa I can shoot a Buff with any caliber I wish and have done so with such calibers as mild as 7 and 8x57 and military ball ammo.... So, it is an easy thing to bribe a game scout and shoot a Buff with a 45-70, but I will suggest the possibility that if that Buff escapes and kills or maims one of the indigenous of Africa and it is discovered that you used an illegal weapon, that perhaps your a$$ would be grass in that changing climate, and you would put to an example, perhaps, something Magabee would dearly love to see....Personally I would not risk that in todays Zimbabwe.. I will also add the Pierces killing of that Buffalo was rather lengthy and drawn out and could have resulted in a charge had his bull been an aggressive bull, the article itself should tell anyone that he was undergunned and was performing a stunt and had little experience at shooting Buffalo..and had that hunt gone sour, then the foolish PH would have lost his license.....Just playing the devils advocate, but stranger things have happened... I figure anyone that does such things does it at his own peril and has to live with the consequences,including myself who has done such things in the past, but no more.... Bottom line is shooting Buffalo with a 45-70 is a stunt, and for those who have little respect for the animal, and if it backfires on them then they deserve the talley, and that is simply an opinnion of mine.....I felt the same way about myself when I did it, when it was over, I was disgusted that I would do such a stupid thing... | |||
|
| one of us |
Quote: BallaBalla, Actually, I don't find Leo's little missive particularly offensive. I do, however, find the tactics of 500grains and his ilk, let us say, something other than upstanding. Refering to 45-70 advocates as "nuts", and sending me the following "private message", without enabling his own "private message" function to permit a response. Therefore, here is the message he sent me, followed by my response. From 500grains via private message: TT, I decided to send this message to you privately to help you avoid embarassment. You will benefit greatly by taking physics 101 at your local community college. Then you may have the intellectual tools to understand why slower = less tissue displacement = less penetration. I was sooo releived he saved me such embarrassment. My response: Dear 500grains, Interestingly enough, I happen to have a BS in Physics with a minor in Math (I won't watch while you remove your foot from your mouth), acquired in 1968, so I feel quite capable of interpreting any PROOF or DATA you may have to offer in the debate. Randy Garrett is the ONLY individual I know of who has recently offered empirical evidence of penetration versus velocity (speed)in big bores. ALL the rest of you offer anecdotal evidence only. I sent this to you privately so you can re-think your asinine "slower = less tissue displacement = less penetration" formula. I would like to see the experimentation that produced that little gem. I think it is most likely some sort of "conventional wisdom" theory, which takes a back seat to experimental evidence, since "conventional wisdom" quite often is wrong. Fortunately, you sent me this message privately so that you avoided exposing YOUR meager intellectual tools to the rest of the caliber snobs on this board. Now, if you take that bit of knowledge you WOULD have gained if YOU had taken Physics 101, and add some Fluid Dynamics and density variables, spiced with some projectile geometry, you might be intellectually capable of understanding that velocity (actually its scalar, speed) is not the only determinant in penetration. Please feel free to "embarrass" me in public at any time, but attempt to do it in a civil manner, unlike many of the participants in this forum. As you may have noted, I did not denigrate the intelligence of anyone in my post, and I think you would benefit from the same degree of restraint. I look forward to hearing from you again. Regards | |||
|
| one of us |
"If the PH's of Zimbabwe agreed with LEO, they would take steps to have the laws changed." Are you that naive of the political situation in Zimbabwe? | |||
|
| one of us |
I'm getting just a bit pissed off here when you guys keep equating the use of an illegal(although quite capable) caliber with that of poaching, snares, leaving meat to rot, and slob hunting. Get a grip you self-righteous rable. How damn well dare you compare the use of any illegal but reasonable and capable caliber to such serious crimes and ethical lapses! Get you heads out of your arses and smell the fresh air. You're the same people who got upset when it was first dicovered that the earth was not flat but round. Quit taking comfort in nonsense laws that protect your nostalgic ideals of what a proper DG caliber HAS to be. Comparing the use of a .45/70 or 7x57 on DG with that of Poaching????? Huh, what!!! Get a grip people! You're just too damn set in your ways for my comfort. | |||
|
| one of us |
It is also illegal in Zimbabwe to have night vision devices (including Sony camcorders that amplify existing light), it is illegal for non-citizens to criticize the President, and it is illegal to bring in "nonapproved" comunication devices (satellite phones). In the bush, the law is what your PH says it is. I know of two hunters there who took buff with a 35 Whelen and another with a 9.3X62. Why make such a big fuss over whether it is legal? I think the real discussion is whether it is ethical. I don't remember anyone around my campfire saying "Hey, wait, let's not criticize Mugabe; it's illegal." Garrett | |||
|
| one of us |
"Laws are supposed to make sense." Umm. Actually, no. If they did lawyers would be extinct! Pupose of law is to generate money for lawyers. (Sorry,Saeed - back in DBX next week) Calibre laws in UK just as arcane as elsewhere. What is OK for deer in Scotland (22-250) isn't in England. We're supposed to have .243 as minimum, but if measured on lands of rifling it fails legality test, but on grooves it would pass. Law is, after all, drafted by lawyers rather than experts in relevant field. I have a new African calibre in works: 22-406. I have two 40.6cm shell cases, ex 1st.WW German army. Necking down to .22 shouldn't be so hard (!) and that sort of velocity ought to see relativistic effect of velocity /mass kind as one approaches speed of light. Portability needs working on. (tongue firmly in cheek) Regards Robert | |||
|
| One of Us |
Quote: Fist of all, no scientist would buy Randy Garrett's marketing hype as anything other than self-serving and contradicatory blather, so your religious belief in the 45-70 apostle Garrett leads me to think that your alleged physics degree does not exist and that you have some sort of personal stake in this debate. It is quite odd that you would show up here just when the troll CapeBuff began stirring the fire about this 45-70 nonsense, and you just happen to have a physics degree and to totally buy Garrett's scientifically baseless claim. If I were to speculate, I would guess that you are a good friend of either Mr. Garrett or Mr. Lupo who has stretched the facts a bit too far.... | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting What Are The Laws In Zimbabwe
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia