I have been reading Jack O'Connors account of some of the Weatherby Award winners. He mentions the less than ethical hunting practices of more than a few of them. Such acts as flying into a hunting area and killing a record book animal and flying out the same day, switching horns in a holding area in Africa, etc..

I remember meeting one of the " award winners " at a SCI Convention in Reno quite a few years ago. I do not know about this gentlemens hunting practices, but after about 30 minutes of listening to him, I felt like I was talking to an old west snake oil salesman.

Just wondering if anyone has heard of or had experience with any of these guys.

Paul C

yup - there's this ego thing they share, something about having everybody know who I am. (for some reason or another I always lumped them into the asshole category)

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
yup - there's this ego thing they share, something about having everybody know who I am. (for some reason or another I always lumped them into the asshole category)

Well said!

Is there a list of them published anywhere?

quote:

Originally posted by Paul C:
I have been reading Jack O'Connors account of some of the Weatherby Award winners. He mentions the less than ethical hunting practices of more than a few of them. Such acts as flying into a hunting area and killing a record book animal and flying out the same day, switching horns in a holding area in Africa, etc..

I remember meeting one of the " award winners " at a SCI Convention in Reno quite a few years ago. I do not know about this gentlemens hunting practices, but after about 30 minutes of listening to him, I felt like I was talking to an old west snake oil salesman.

Just wondering if anyone has heard of or had experience with any of these guys.

Paul C

One is sometimes hear things one never knows how true the stories are.

Jack was one of my favourite writers - in fact, due to him my first hunting rifle was a 270 Winchester.

I have also heard negative reports about him.

For instance, he was supposed to have gotten himself a free African hunt, promising to promote the places he has been too. He apparently did not keep his promise.

In some of the books written by past PH in Africa, some mention was also made of some of the current SCI Inner Circle members not hunting according to the laws of the countries they got their trophies in.

As I said, one finds it very hard to believe some of the stories one reads.

One thing is for sure.

Both the Weatherby Awards winners and the current SCI craze of "mine is bigger than yours" attitude is nothing but individuals glorifying themselves.

Where the.... OH, there they are!

Nickudu,
You are a very sick individual....

But I like your style.

Ross

I think painting ALL the Weatherby Winners with the same brush (regardless how you feel about the marque) is not the right thing to do. I'm sure there are some jerks in the mix, just like everywhere else, even among Naval Aviators jorge

Nickudu,

That was great!

Regards,
Dave

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
I think painting ALL the Weatherby Winners with the same brush (regardless how you feel about the marque) is not the right thing to do. I'm sure there are some jerks in the mix, just like everywhere else, even among Naval Aviators jorge

jorge

Even here.

quote:

Both the Weatherby Awards winners and the current SCI craze of "mine is bigger than yours" attitude is nothing but individuals glorifying themselves.

It's only Approbation Lust plain and simple.

It just seems to me that trophy hunting should be more than taking the biggest. The actual hunt and subsequent chase should take the number one spot, not how big can I go.

In Mellon's book, African Hunter, he says that on his first Greater Kudu hunt in Tanzania he was hunting for a 50" kudu. When the first one he killed "only" measured 48 1/2" he says and I quote, " throw the horns into the nearest river." That my friends is an asshole anyway you cut it whether you have been on one or one hundred safaris. Typical spoiled rich kid with nothing more to do. If I was his PH, I would have bitch slapped him all the way back to Pennsylvania.

Paul C

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
I think painting ALL the Weatherby Winners with the same brush (regardless how you feel about the marque) is not the right thing to do. I'm sure there are some jerks in the mix, just like everywhere else, even among Naval Aviators jorge

Amongst Brownshoes?!?

Bite your tongue!

quote:

Originally posted by Gator1:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
I think painting ALL the Weatherby Winners with the same brush (regardless how you feel about the marque) is not the right thing to do. I'm sure there are some jerks in the mix, just like everywhere else, even among Naval Aviators jorge

jorge

Even here.

Well said all.

Same personality trait who would have a rifle built like Herb Klein, a Weatherby "winner" himself. See the post "Herb Klein rifles."

The whole notion that one is a great hunter because of the number or size of his trophies is pretty ridiculous.

IMHO, these awards, whether SCI or Weatherby or whatever, engender a weird kind of competition, where none really exists or can even be measured.

Hunting is not a competitive sport, except to the extent that the hunter pits himself against the wiles or might of his quarry. And even then honesty compels most of us to admit that luck plays a huge, maybe even pre-eminent role.

When people start keeping score, things like ethics, rules, laws and common sense often get slighted or ignored. The goal becomes "winning" and ego and sleazy self-promotion can become the governing factors.

Still, I agree with jorge that one shouldn't generalize overbroadly. For example, although I have never done it, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to enter animals in the record books. If people didn't do that, we would lose a valuable source of information about the game we hunt.

It only tends to get ridiculous when the focus shifts from the game itself to the alleged greatness and prowess of the hunter who killed it.

Mrlexma, well said.

Mrlexma - I agree with your words and I know that some hunters ethics are not up to par with others. This is my opinion only, but if you hunt for a mature animal that is no longer a viable asset to the game herd and come away with exactly that it, is true trophy. Sure everyone wants that 30" mule deer buck, 100 lb. elephant, pure black mane lion, etc... In realty that 60 lbs bull you track for 10 miles in 100 deg. weather is a great trophy same as a 28" mule deer buck in 2 ft of snow at 9000 ft elevation.

Hunting is so much more that the killing of the game. Some of my best times have been turning down shots. Elgin Gates once had an elephant that was surely at least 120 lbs per side. After a long chase and finally catching up to the bull, Elgin was satisfied to put the rifle to his shoulder and getting the bull in his sights and not shooting. Instead he just admired the animal in his natural setting. That is awesome.

Paul C

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
I'm sure there are some jerks in the mix, just like everywhere else, even among Naval Aviators jorge

Please, that one is too easy.

I met a Mexican gentleman who was a Wetherby Award winner, and he was a true gentelman. I do not doubt that some can be jerks, but he was a nice guy.

As for Naval aviators ...

i have guided 2 waw and 1 past pres of sci. their motivation for hunting was different than my own and yes there was 1 asshole in the mix.

While there are assholes and pricks in all walks of life I think that any program that gives awards and recognition for being the best attracts more than the usual number.

Hunting is no exception nor is it alone.

Another thing is a lot of Hunting Award Winners are judged on a different standard than normal hunters. I think jealousy plays a major role in this.

A typical Weatherby or SCI Hunter of the Year Award Winner will have done 100 times more hunting than anyone here. He will have been a thousand places posters here will never go. He will have seen a million things posters here will never see.

Been to Africa 5 times? A WAW will have been 50. Been to Russia twice? Try 30 trips for 50 different animals. Feeling cocky about going on an Elk hunt? Shoot every game animal in North America and go all the places needed to go to do it.

Ever hunted in China? India? Afghanistan? Pakistan? Argentina? Congo Free State? Lithuania? Ukraine? New Guinea? Ever been to all of them, hunting?

I doubt if most eventual winners ever start out to win. It just happens along the way. One day they look up and they have 200 different species from 100 different Countries and they say Wow, maybe I should try and get that thing.

The question becomes, are they Assholes because they hunt competitively or were they Assholes already when they made enough money to afford it?

quote:

As for Naval aviators ...

I'm sure CATS will chime in and agree, but then again. from him, I consider it a compliment jorge

quote:

Originally posted by Gator1:
While there are assholes and pricks in all walks of life I think that any program that gives awards and recognition for being the best attracts more than the usual number.

Hunting is no exception nor is it alone.

Another thing is a lot of Hunting Award Winners are judged on a different standard than normal hunters. I think jealousy plays a major role in this.

A typical Weatherby or SCI Hunter of the Year Award Winner will have done 100 times more hunting than anyone here. He will have been a thousand places posters here will never go. He will have seen a million things posters here will never see.

Been to Africa 5 times? A WAW will have been 50. Been to Russia twice? Try 30 trips for 50 different animals. Feeling cocky about going on an Elk hunt? Shoot every game animal in North America and go all the places needed to go to do it.

Ever hunted in China? India? Afghanistan? Pakistan? Argentina? Congo Free State? Lithuania? Ukraine? New Guinea? Ever been to all of them, hunting?

I doubt if most eventual winners ever start out to win. It just happens along the way. One day they look up and they have 200 different species from 100 different Countries and they say Wow, maybe I should try and get that thing.

The question becomes, are they Assholes because they hunt competitively or were they Assholes already when they made enough money to afford it?

Ahh ... a voice of reason. Thanks Gator. Maybe later you can fill these folks in on some of the other criteria needed to be met to gain elegibility for consideration, let alone the actual winning of such an award.

quote:

One thing is for sure.

Both the Weatherby Awards winners and the current SCI craze of "mine is bigger than yours" attitude is nothing but individuals glorifying themselves.

Well said, Saeed. These people are not hunters, they are merely collectors. Too shallow to appreciate the hunt, and at the end of the day it's all about bragging rights among a very small circle. One might even say, a circle of jerks....

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:

quote:

One thing is for sure.

Both the Weatherby Awards winners and the current SCI craze of "mine is bigger than yours" attitude is nothing but individuals glorifying themselves.

Well said, Saeed. These people are not hunters, they are merely collectors. Too shallow to appreciate the hunt, and at the end of the day it's all about bragging rights among a very small circle. One might even say, a circle of jerks....

Sorry Jim, I don't think that either you or Saeed actually has a clue.

Have you ever sat down with one of these guys and asked about the different hunts?

Ever read Gates 'Trophy Hunter in Asia'? One of the best Hunting Books of all time. By a Weatherby Award Winner.

Sure some of these guys took short cuts but most did not. Some are Assholes, but most are not.

All are better hunters than most, better shots than most, put up with more adverse conditions than most and would be more dependable when the shit hits the fan than most.

I have a friend who won the Malik Award and shot all of the animals of the South Pacific alone and unguided.

Since he is the only one to ever do it would you call him 'merely a collector and too shallow to appreciate the hunt'?

The Weatherby and the SCI award are for Worldwide Hunting not only for the pampered African Safari that requires a posse and 6 helpers.

Do you think having to tie your arm to the tale of a Yak to get drug up to 16,000 feet to hunt a Blue Sheep is for shallow hunters?

I'm sorry but on this you are completely wrong.

What is the difference between the SCI and Weatherby awards anyway if I may ask and if it gets answered today before I go ?

quote:

Originally posted by Safari-Hunt:
What is the difference between the SCI and Weatherby awards anyway if I may ask and if it gets answered today before I go ?

Probably not much different. Both types hunted for "trophy collection".

Many did it without any regard for the legality or the ethics of it.

The same mentality of "mine is bigger than yours"

Elgin Gates was mentioned.

Isn't he the one who would not show his kudu to be measured?

Isn't he the one holding the kudu horns somewhere in the middle? Which was suspected of being two sets of horns added together?

I know, it is all heresay, but I have learnt to take everything written with a large dose of salt.

Elmer Keith claimed he shot a deer with a 30-06 and broke his back. The deer got up and ran off?!!

Jeff Cooper claimed that one out of ten buffalos would charge you?!!

I know with absolute certainty that an animal with a broken back is NOT going to get up and run off - regardless fo what caliber one used.

I would hate how many times I would have been charged by the buffalo I have shot if Cooper was right.

As I said, many writers let their imagination run wild sometimes.

Wall said Saeed! A large dose of salt indeed!

regardless of how you slice the subject it all comes down to "GREED".

I do agree with most of the post in this thread.
One difference between the WA and SCI Award program is that to be a candidate for the WA you need to have done a great deal of conservation work, or given funds to support such projects. That makes those winners important for the hunting community in my mind!

I have never entered an animal into the record books, but probably will. It gives a statistic record for trophies in different areas and countries.

The SCI award program leads the focus to more spesies and more countries, that will benefit from suistanabel hunting. I think it`s great most of the time, even though it might have some negativity connected.

I would like to hunt as many different species around the world as possible, and except from species in my own country, I would probably only shoot one of each. That`s enough for me. I consider myself a hunter first of all, but with a touch of a collective mind..

The Current Award Winner

There is much else on this site, should you care to educate yourselves. The sweeping denigration of some of the best of our ilk is something that should not occur at AR.

quote:

Originally posted by Nickudu:
The Current Award Winner

There is much else on this site, should you care to educate yourselves. The sweeping denigration of some of the best of our ilk is something that should not occur at AR.

Nick,

With all due respect, I find the following EXTEMELY hard to believe.

"...With a hunting career spanning 39 years and 122 Major Big Game Hunts, he has collected 212 Species recognized by the Weatherby Ballot, and 162 have made the SCI Record Book, with 27 having reached the Top Ten. His hunting philosophy and ethics have led him to hunt only one of each species, part for the challenge, and part to be prudent..."

Hunted for 39 years, shot several hundreds of species, including so many record book animals, and he only shot ONE animals of each species!!??

I don't believe it for one second!

I am not here to provide a blanket defense for OVIS, SCI, Weatherby or any other awarding entity. For my own reasons, I detest them all.
However, for those with heads too big or acumen too weak to refer to these men as liars and ass----s is unfair, short sighted and detrimental to our collective interest as hunters. Our betters were out there then and they are this day!. Dismiss them at your peril.

"His hunting philosophy and ethics have led him to hunt only one of each species, part for the challenge, and part to be prudent..."

Saeed,

"have led him to hunt" excludes the past.

As a side note, if it was the H&H Award or the Mauser Award or the CRF Award then people on this forum would be all over it like bees to a honey pot.

I do hope some of the posters remember what they have said when in the future they refer to the "270 man".....Or is Jack an exception?

How unfortunate that threads and postings on this forum go back about 6 years

Mike

quote:

"have led him to hunt" excludes the past.

Saeed,

The past is not completely excluded because "have led him to hunt"

Mike

I have hunted with Federico for Mule Deer in Sonora and can guarantee that he is a gentleman and an honorable man.

I would think that animals hunted in Mexico would be excluded from that statement as, like most here, he hunts at home when he can. I would believe that he has only shot one each of all of the other animals he has taken in the World. This would tend to be born out by the fact that he has so few animals high up in the Record Book for a major award winner. I could never do this as I enjoy certain species too much to not hunt more than one.

Only shooting 212 different species is quite rare. Most of the winners would be into the mid to high 300's with a few over 400.

I have never understood the attacks leveled at other hunters who can afford to do things most of us cannot. Jealousy at having the money or time to go everywhere to hunt?

I think that when getting close to the prize, many of these guys have probably taken a shortcut or two. So throw out 25% of all their animals and still no one here could carry their dirty socks as a hunter.

Traipsing around the Selous with a half a dozen helpers is not anymore ethical than shooting behind a fence. It certainly doesn't, alone, qualify anyone as a Hunter. Remember that Gates hunted the Selous at the very beginning in the early 60's. Before their were Roads, PH's, Assistant Ph's, Game Scouts, Trackers, Skinners and Cameramen to keep a hunter company.

quote:

Sorry Jim, I don't think that either you or Saeed actually has a clue.

Maybe we don't have a clue, and maybe we do.

I have not sat down with any of these individuals to speak with them. But, I have read their accounts of their hunts and have read the awards write ups.

This has led me to form my own opinion, which I believe is based on a healthy amounts of facts and logic.

At some point, most of these award winners appear to have been caught up in looking to the "award" as the goal, rather than the hunt itself. Maybe it was a goal all along, or maybe when they got mixed up with the "award crowd", their priorities changed.

I think that most of these folks are or become "checklist collectors" - engaged in an expensive scavenger hunt. Guys who would never think of going hunting without two indespensible items - a game checklist with world record stats and a tape measure. And when it comes to that, the focus is on the "win"; hunting is a means to an end and not the end in and of itself. It becomes a game rather than an extension of what makes you tick.

It also occurs to me that for an individual to engage in three major big game hunts a year over a 40 year period, this "club" is an exclusive one - limited by money to the top one percent of the world's population. These awards have become a clique for the world's rich and famous, who appear to be driven more by ego than a passion for hunting.

I do not know the criteria for Weatherby in terms of fair chase, but SCI openly boasts that they care not under what conditions an animal is taken - if it had breath in it when it was taken, it qualifies for the SCI books.

I find it very ironic that some here who are quick to condemn ranch hunting to the extent that a mention of such a hunt in the hunting reports draws a verbal evisceration of the hunter, are among the most vocal to defend these kinds of awards.

Conservation is extremely important to all of us, and every hunter I know is an avid, sometimes rabid, conservationist. And SCI does a good job on that level.

I am a life member of SCI because I feel, that in the total mix of things, they do more good than harm. But I am no fan of their record book system.

To me, these awards are no different than the Oscars - a group of industry elite who finds it necesary to throw a party for themselves and give each other prizes and pats on the back.

I am sure there are some good hunters who have received these awards based on a lifetime of hunting, not ever thinking about an award - the award being incidental to a life's pursuit of one's passion. But it is my guess there are many more, expecially these days, who "shoot" to win such an award, and collect trophies for the primary purpose of getting a plaque for their wall and having their names recorded for all posterity. And in my book those are the men and women who "have no clue".

Jim,

On the list who would fail your test and who would pass?

http://www.weatherby-foundation.org/award/previous.html

The one I know about who insisted that he be allowed to jacklight his game at the salt lick after legal shooting hours would not pass.

But he knew that all the really big ones are nocturnal and that's all that mattered.

That's not to say that all awards recipients are like that, but many unfortunately are just like that or worse.

That's what gamesmanship can do to the wrong kind of person - and that's the point many here are trying to make.

Man o Man I did not realize that by asking a question with my post that so many people would chime in. It was not my intent to knock all the award winners. I just wanted to know if anyone had any first hand knowledge of for lack of a better word, "award cheats."

When I used to help guide for wild boar and exotics I had one flaming idiot who stated he was related to CJ McElroy. Whether he was or not did not impress me or the owner of the ranch at all. This idiot wanted to shoot immature animals and we would not let this happen. The last day this "hunter" hunted with us we found a very large lone boar who was feeding in the open but about 30 yards from a large patch of chemise which covered about 300 acres or so of really thick chemise, damn solid cover. When I explained to him that if he did not drop the boar instantly I would follow up with my shot because we had lost other animals in similar cover before. He said he would try to spine shoot the boar at about 125 yds. I told him not to do so at that range, but to hit the boar in the pocket just behind the front leg. Now mind you this all happened in a span of about 2 minutes and every second wasted the boar was moving away at a slow walk. While I told him to let me get in position to follow-up he went ahead and shot. Naturally the shot was not a good one right about mid body. Luckily, the boar ran about 50 yards straight ahead before he attempted to turn into the Hell Brush. I was able to him hard enough to knock him down and as he was getting back up the hunter hit him again in the ham, which caused the boar to spin a little bit and he finally dropped. Of course the "hunter" was so pissed at me for following up he did not want to pay his game fee for the animal harvested. When we got back to the skinning room, I pulled out his contract which clearly stated, " due to the large areas of brush on the ranch it is up to the guide to determine if a follow up shot is needed in order to not lose animals." He said he did not read that section of the contract/waiver. I explained that the contract was sent to him 10 days before his hunt and he signed and returned it to us. I also explained that I do not like to have to follow up shots,but if we lost the boar he would have to pay for it anyway. The assholes response was, " well you don't have to tell Mike ( owner of ranch ) that I hit the damn thing it just a wild pig and there are tons of them out here."

Paul C