/

I have very little experience with true big bore rifles. I have shot 416's, 458's, and a 500. All 3 produced more recoil than I am capable of controlling for a rapid second shot. It took me a couple seconds to settle back into shooting position at the very best. I have witnessed MANY times where hunters have bought the newest big boy because it is flat shooting (338 Win and 300 Ultra come to mind) and end up seriously wounding the animal and on several occasions losing the animal. I take it very seriously when a hunter cant make a clean kill. I make no intent to compare my elk experience with DG but use it as an example to show that a hunter must be able to manage the recoil. In DG this is not just important but potentialy life threatening. I have no idea where to draw the line but the 375 H&H and 458 Win MAg are what I would consider my personal limit for rapid controlability with the 375 being much easier for me.

Alf:

It seems to me that it is pretty much impossible to "draw a line" here. Many shooters are extra sensitive to recoil while many others are indifferent to it. Now add in the factor that M1Tanker mentioned in his experience in shooting some truly "big bores", -he felt he took some time to recover between shots. (I know he meant "time" as a matter of a few seconds or less - but those few seconds can be important, of course, in a hunting situation. Now, could M1Tanker improve his reaction time with practice? I am sure he could but it does complicate the equation) Some shooters are crack shots with their rifle. Does that mean that they are better off using,say, a 7x57 on elephant because they can place the bullet with real accuracy? - and, certainly, we all agree that bullet placement is the name of the game. Conventional wisdom says NO. Having watched elephant up close, I would opt for a 76mm (HV) recoilless rifle - but that's me. I shot a Cape buffalo with a 375 H&H and the buff was dead on his feet with the first shot - but if there ever were a next time, I would want something more to use on nyati - but that's me. I guess what I'm trying to say in my usual roundabout fashion is that it may be a matter of balancing factors and trying to strike some kind of happy medium.

As has been stated, monster-slayers require practice to master. It took me about 3-4 months to be sure that I could handle the .450 Rigby and once I returned from Mozambique, I haven't shot it since. I'm sure that I can get used to the .404 in about the same amount of time and perhaps could even do so with the .505 but other than the bragging rights, what would be the point? (BTW, let us not down play the importance of bragging rights!) As a "budget bwana" my likelihood of doing jumbo or white rhino are so slim as to be laughable, and I am definitely never going to be a pro who has to protect silly tourists from their own mistakes or plain bad luck. So your point is very well made. Yeah, we can teach ourselves to manage Class IV DGR's but is there any practical sense in doing so? Good question, that man, and my answer is stick with the .450 NE.

With all due respect, this is really irrelevant.

You can stand around beating the crap out of yourself with a big gun but that really has nothing to do with hunting with one. I suspect in 99.9% of the cases, no matter how big the gun is it will not be noticeable when "hunting" dangerous dangerous-game.

Standing at a target and shooting the Lott was no picnic for me. But when the time came and I was shooting the thing as fast as I could it may well have been a .22 Long Rifle.

As long as you are standing, without such contraptions as scopes or peep sights, I suspect one could shoot most any big bore without noticing, when hunting.

Bill,

Are you saying that you can shoot several shots from a .458 Lott as quickly and as accurately as from a .375 H&H in a hunting scenario?

"...I was shooting the thing as fast as I could it may well have been a .22 Long Rifle."

I agree, that in a hunting situation, you won't notice the recoil the same way you would from a bench. However, as I understand Alf's initial post, he is questioning whether the recovery time between shots on larger caliber rifles somewhat negated their effectiveness.


Regards,

Terry

I am by no means an expert, but common sense comes to play at some point in time. I feel once a guy gets past the 416 its pretty easy for the individual to tell where the line is by just shooting one.

The factors that govern that will be stock design and whether any kind of recoil arrestor is fitted to the rifle. My .500 Jeffery has a mercury recoil arrestor fitted into the stock and a good stock design and I reckon I can get subsequent shots off as quickly with the .500 as I can with my 30.06.

I am confident on dangerous game with any caliber from 9.3x62 on up..In the lighter calibers like 9.3x62 and 375 H&H I feel it is important to use solids only on Buffalo, Hippo and Elephant with these light calibers..

I also place all the emphasis on the first shot, if it is placed correctly then the 9.3x62 is deadly as it has a SD of .300 and a velocity in excess of 2100 FPS..

I also believe that a poorly placed shot is trouble brewing with any caliber and a 600 gr. bullet at 2500 FPS has no more practical effect than a 300 gr. bullet at 2100 FPS when that happens. and I have seen plenty of proof to satisfy my opinnion on this, once old nyati is hurt, and pumped with adrenaline, it simply takes a brain or spine shot for the most part to stop him and it makes little difference what size hole you put in the brain...

With a proper heart shot, I believe you might get, lets say a faster death with the bigger bores, but in timed play, it probably wouldn't be a whole lot, but then when seconds count to dieing, it might be a whole lot.

In a charge situation I still have mixed emotions, when you take in such factors as return to target from recoil..so I like a happy medium like a 404 Jefferys or 416 for the most part mostly because I simply shoot them better or my loaded down .470 is fine, and probably a better choice for me...

Bottom line is each of us should be VERY HONEST with ourselves and shoot what we can shoot the best and make all our shots at game count. Take time to choose the very best of bullets available, and stick them in the right spot, that is the secret to success in any game shooting situation.....

If you can HONESTLY shoot the big bore FROM ANY FIELD POSITION, then that is what I would use. I fear most talk a better game than they can produce when it comes to recoil...some however seem immune to it and for them the 577 is a great choice..

But when it comes out in the wash I am more than confident that a properly placed 9.3 with a proper bullet is effective on dangerous game and I have used both and observed both being used effectively..The bigger bores give one a perspective of power and confidence and that may be a very important consideration in this scenario...

when in the short rows I always get the impression that I should have packed a bigger gun that day, but that even applied to the days I had a 505!!

Its all about choices and we all have to live with the choice we make..

For those who have any thought to recoil then I would suggest a .375 H&H, its pretty hard to beat...

Terry,

I could see where recovery time might be a problem in shooting a big double, like a 600 or 700, where recovery time is going to be more pronounced than a SxS 20 gauge.

But by the time a bolt-action is cycled, I have recovered. I darn near unloaded the Lott in '02 and emptied the 416 in '03 (as near as I can recollect). I didn't notice the recoil or any time lag between shots due to recovery time.

When the poop hits the fan, I usually don't have time to worry about recovery time!

But I'm sure everyone is different.

I would submit that the answer to your question depends entirely on the rifle (its stock, weight, whether it has recoil reducers, etc.), the shooter, and his individual ability to handle recoil. Every human being is different and every rifle design is different.



I have put 5 rounds from my .458 Lott into a buffalo in something less than 10 seconds, and 5 rounds into a hippo in roughly the same time. And after the first shot, both were running.



But my Lott is a bit heavy for caliber, has an excellent, well-designed stock with two mercury recoil reducers in it, and doesn't hurt me at all, not even off of the bench. Point is, it's well within my recoil limitations.



Given that bigger is better, as long as one can handle it, that's why I decided to move up to a .500 A-Square--in a rifle with the same basic features as my Lott. Maybe the .500 will be my limit, or even exceed it. I'll find out soon enough. If it's too much for me, I'll just go back to the Lott.



On the other hand, my stepfather had an old Savage single barrel 12 gauge that would damn near dislocate your shoulder with every shot, and leave you with a mustard yellow bruise to boot. Hell, I wouldn't shoot that gun today even on a bet.

First, a man has got to know his limitations. This applies both to recoil and to weight. I look at a DG rifle as a "system", a combination of man [or woman], rifle and ballistics. My wife could not carry, or shoot the same rifle as, say Mark Sullivan. He does not seem to have any problem handling double rifles in the 577 or 600 class.
I think one mistake modern hunters seem to make is velocity. When stopping a charge you do not need a lot of velocity, and as most DG is shot within 100 yards, most within probably 50, anything over 2200fps is unnecessary IMHO. After reading a lot of the "old time" African hunting books there is no doubt in my mind that a 577 or a 600 double does have an advantage with elephant in the thick bush. However as Ray stated for all other game as long as the brain is penetrated the size of the hole does not matter.
With the exception of elephant as stated above, I feel the best allround DG rifle is a 450/400 double rifle. This rifle has enough power, is very easy to shoot, and light enough to carry. With a 400gr bullet an @ 2100fps it is a good combination of power/recoil.
I do feel a 450 to 475 double rifle does give you more "power" but the recoil and rifle weight do increase.
A person is much better off with a 450/400 he can shoot than a 450/475 class of rifle that kicks him too hard and/or that is too heavy for him.
For those that can carry/handle it a 500,577 or a 600 is just icing on the cake.
I have owned bolt rifles in 416 Rem, 416 WBY, and 458 Win Mag. I have shot a 460 WBY a fair amount. I found the recoil velocity of the Wby Mags to be too uncomfortable to shoot from all hunting positions. I know my limitations, and recoil velocity seems to bother me more than a heavier slower push.
I really desire a 577 or a 600 double rifle. [Probably read to many old books ] When I shoot one, if the recoil is too much for me then I will not get one.... If it kicks too much to hunt pigs with, then it has too much recoil for DG.
My 450 No2, or my 450/400 3 1/4" is enough gun for any game on the planet, I just like the nostalgia of a 577 or a 600.

But, I know that a 450/400 well handled will get the job done, a bigger rifle shot poorly will not.

I really think that the big bore limit is an individual thing. I know guys who act like they are injured after shooting a 30-06, and others do not seem to be affected by recoil.



For me, here is how it breaks down:



600 nitro: 10 minutes recovery between shots to get over that car accident feeling. For some reason the .600 gets me all out of whack. Part of it is that stupid red recoil pad which doesn't seem to take any of the edge of the recoil.



585 nyati: 3-4 seconds recovery between shots, including time to work the bolt. Don't get me wrong - it takes concentration. But it is not at all unusable.



500 nitro: 2 seconds recovery between shots, then start squeezing the trigger again.



458 lott and 470 capstick: rate of shooting is limited only by how fast I can work the bolt. No recovery time needed to deal with the recoil.



9.3 x 62: same as shooting a 30-06.

500 grains posted: between shots to get over that car accident feeling.

NE 450#2-----Very well put>

I would also suggest that when one is on a mixed bag hunt, and you may be called upon to shoot a small antelope at 250 yds, a big, big bore is not the best tool. Depending upon your hunt and the area, you may be better served with a 9.3x62 or .375 than with a 470 or 458.

The 40's split the difference, and there are those who may shoot them at a Thompson's Gazelle at 250 yds, but I would not feel as comfortable as I would be with my 9.3. Conversely, if I had to deal with a charging, pissed off lion, I'd be wishing I had a double in a large caliber. But then all life is a compromise. I guess that is why I have a two gun case. Ku-dude

If DG can't be handled in fine fashion with .416s, .404s and .458 winnies then the real big bores and super .45s are not going to really help the situation. A long time ago the .450 3 1/4 inch NE was proven to be all that was necessary for any DG. Nothing bigger is ever necessary are would really help.

Bill:

Certainly, I agree that in a game situation, you don't notice recoil - but isn't that simply because the adrenaline is flowing and you are hyped up? Honestly, wouldn't you say that the sheer physical force of recoil has to slow you from getting back on target? Of course, you have to agree. So then,isn't it a matter of deciding between the target ( elephant or warthog)and what caliber you can handle -not in the sense of simply being able to stand up to it - but how to get a happy mix of a rifle you're fully confident with (and never flinch from, not even in the slightest)and confident knowledge that a well placed bullet should (note I said "should'.Anything can go wrong) drop the animal? I salute the guys who can use a 700 Weatherby (I never saw any. I saw one peddling the rifle after three shots at a range. No kidding)) I went to Africa with a 375 H&H after some 1500 rounds off hand (two barrels) I was confident in my rifle and my PH was confident with me (yes, I'm proud of that simple fact to this day. He put me in front of a Cape buffalo at about 30-35 yards) It's that union of shooter and rifle that all hunters have to discover for themselves.

ALF>> There is little arguement to state that there are minimums where calibers and rifles do not qualify as DG rifles.

But then many will say "Bigger is better"

But at what point on the caliber scale does this assumption become a matter of impracticality?

MAC>> The above is your question!

MAC >> Below is your answer,to your own question


As matter of discussion:??????????????

---

MAC>> I think there is some confusion as to what a dangerous game rifle really is! I agree with your answers, partially!


ALF>>There is little doubt in my mind that a first shot well placed no matter the caliber is essential and in own experience rapidly fatal.

MAC>> The above is true but only conditionally! the caliber doesn't matter, but the whole balistics of the CARTRIDGE, does!

If the animal is positioned correctly,at the proper distance from the shooter, and the caliber is capable of getting into the vitals from that angle, then it is absolutely true. One example of a shot that is not a sure thing is, the frontal brain shot on an Elephant!The power of the shot here makes a great difference. Though you hit the right spot, if the bullet will not penetrate deeply enough, or in a streight enough line, then it does matter, and will not be "RAPIDLY FATAL"!

ALF>> The problem is, when it comes to the marginal to poor shot and here the hunter now relies on the safety of a DG stopper in the event of a charge.

MAC>> This is true, but if the rifle is too small in the first place he's in trouble!

ALF>> Now for the question: Is bigger better here and where do we draw the line for to big?

MAC>> Bigger may not be the answer, but big enough will be of great value here! A bullet that is too small to do the job under the conditions where it is used, then it is simply not adiquate.

ALF>> Is there to big? Absolutely cause there is no way the average shooter can possibly render a accurate timeous follow -up shot with some of the popularly touted big bores often quoted on this site!

There is cited scientific evidence to prove this statement from the studied conducted into cull shooting operations where large bore DG rifles such as the 600 Nitro were found to be wholly deficient as a multiple follow on shot weapon.

How can one possibly shoot a rifle accurately and consitantly if you cannot even hang on or control the weapon. When recoil is so much the rifle rises way out of line of sight and your hands loses contact with the grip, when eyes tear, your nose bleeds and you lose a hat in the proccess. Of the worlds most foremost big bore double rifle shooters and collectors have been caught in the act of this happening during double rifle shoots.

MAC>> You answered your own question here!


ALF>>So when someone says I want a DR rifle shooting a larger than 45 cal bullet with weight more than 600 grain is this a practical option as a DG rifle or is it simply a
" I wanna the biggest" bragging right?

MAC>> I think anything from a 300 gr 375 cal solid at 2550 fps to a 570 gr solid .500 cal at 2100 fps,in a proerly weighted rifle, will handle just about any angle, if as you say, the bullet is placed properly. As far as stopping a charge, anything that will get to the brian, or spine will stop a charge, if it misses either of these two targets, it makes little difference uless it is big enough to cause shock from a nere hit to those areas.

I believe anything bigger than a 577, and probably bigger than a .500, is nothing more than a rich man's "LOOK AT ME" toy, and is absolutely useless if the first shot isn't good, at close range, because he will not get another shot in an all out charge!

This was brought up on another Forum but it makes sense to me that the 'Perfect DG' rifle is a .577 2 3/4" in either the 650 or 750 grain load. 5200 lbs/energy and he soft will expand to about 80 caliber. Either will completely penitrate an Elephant from the side and yet the recoil is similar to a 470.

Quote:

---

When does a DG rifle become impractical?

---

When it only has one barrel ?