Has anyone here shot DG with the 380gr woodleigh in 375? We're looking for reports on its effectiveness as oppossed to the 300gr solid or 350gr rhino.

Hello Berger,

I do not think that Woodleigh makes a 380gr bullet in .375 Cal. I might be wrong but I think that the 350gr is as high as they go in that caliber...

Enigma

I believe Enigma is correct... the Rhino is avail in 380 and the woodleigh in 350.

Sorry, I have no experience with either one.

I would not recommend the Rhino unless you live in a country where the North Fork, Swift or Trophy Bonded are not available. Here is a picture of the sectioned 425 and 485 grain Rhino bullets in .458 caliber. These were fired into two or three 5 gallon nylon buckets filled w water. The water buckets closely duplicate shots into buffalo if you are using a Swift, North Fork, Trophy Bonded, Barnes X, or Woodleigh. And by close I mean wihtin 5-10% of expansion and weight retention!



The copper alloy used is quite brittle and the interior dimension of the jacket/core appear to have been drilled rather than swaged. This leaves a very thick jacket at the meplat.

Here is the 485 grain recovered at just 2426 fps.



Here is the 425 grain at 2597 fps.



If you must shoot a 350 or 380 grain 375 it would benefit from a really quick (custom) twist to help keep it point forward.

Andy

The 380 is available from Rhino bullets. From what I have gathered, these bullets are a little too much of a good thing. The extra length and bearing surface cuts in too much in terms of velocity for the 375 H&H. Not sure of specifics though. I have also heard that the woodleigh 350pp and solid bullets are capable of about 2400 fps, and have proven to be excellent bullets.

You are of course correct - I was not seeing my wood for my rhinos... I have been loading both and can get the 380 gr up to abou 2250 and the woodleigh at about 2380 or there abouts consistantly. I have not taken game wiht either though and was just wondering. Andy's results are similar to those first reported for the 380 gr. It just seems too long. Adriaan Louwe here in SA however feels that the 350 gr woodleigh is just the thing for DG giving the 375 real stopping power.

.

Sorry, I screwed up with the quote thing in the previous post.

Andy,please help me understand:

1) how one determines that two or three water buckets duplicates shots fired in to buffalo; and

2) does it duplicate expansion and weight retention irrespective of where one strikes the buff with the actual bullet?

Thanks for your time.

Berger, please pardon me for highjacking your thread.

These Rhino bullets have all been retrieved from game animals and is proof that they provide sterling performance. This is just a small sample that Mauritz Coetzee keep with him at the shop.

Many hunters do not donate their bullets, but keep them as souveniers. Between myself and Pieter Olivier we have a can fruit bottle full of similar bullets.

The 380 gr Rhino bullet was designed as a specialised bullet for buffalo hunters at shorter ranges. I have posted previously Doctari's review and pictures of this bullet and with his experience of more than 800 buffalos you can take his endorsement to the bank.

Chris

I am guessing that the difference in expansion/weight retention seen between Andy's recovered Rhinos and those from game is impact velocity.

Alf, were your recovered Rhinos going 2100 to 2400 fps when they hit game?

Perhaps Rhinos, like Woodleighs, are best at less than 2400 fps?

I shot more than 50 animals with different Rhinos (6,5 in 156 grains, 35 Whelen in 200 and 250 grains and 375 in 270 and 380 grains.

The about 10 bullets recovered were all perfect.

I also tried shooting in differnt medias like plastic containers filled with wet paper and I got bullets from different companies break in those tests.





The speed was about 2600 fps on both bullets. All are above 96% remaining weight, most of them above 98%

Rian,

The nylon water buckets absolutely duplicate results on shoulder shots on bufalo.

I compared expansion and weight retention of the late Goerge Hoffmans collection of 416 bullets to the same bullets shot into 5 gallon nylon water buckets at PB and 100 yards and they were withn 5-10%.

Same results with North Fork, original Trophy Bonded, Woodleigh and BArnes X.

The more you test and compare bullets you will see that some have a much broader velocity envelope they work in than others.

The Rhino is not one of these.

North Fork, Swift, original Trophy Bonded and original and still best bonded bullet, the Bitterroot work from PB in a super magnum, down to far away with a down loaded double rifle.

The 425 grain Rhino actually worked better than the 485 grain. I am sure there are Rhinos like you and others have posted that worked as advertised.

I am also sure you will never see the ones that did not!

Alf, the ones on far right are tipping badly. Too long or too little twist to stabilize. Problem w tipping is the expanded wings break off especially if they turn over 180 degrees. Also not impressed with star fish expansion rather than a mushroom. Copper alloy is too brittle, it is fracturing!

CCHunter, very nice picture! This is being critical but since they are supposed to be premium bullets we can be. Most of the lead is washed off the expanded 35 calibers. At only 2600 fps I would not expect this. Also notice how much copper there is to the expanded petals. No lead here at all. Not a great bond and too brittle of a jacket. Its a decent bullet, just not as sophisticated as the other brands I mentioned.

Andy

.

Thanks for taking the time to explain your views to me Andy. I can see that you’ve spent a lot of time shooting water buckets, and in thought on this issue.

Every man has his own set of criteria by which he judges things. Yours are obviously much higher than mine. I’m using Rhino bullets in .30 cal, .375,.404 and I like them. They kill everything that I hit in an appropriate spot or from a sensible angle.

If asked by anyone, I would give Rhino bullets a thumbs up, because by my standards the best a bullet can do, is to kill an animal every time you place your shots right.

Here are photos of 458 caliber North Fork at 2700 fps for 400 grain and 2550 fps for 450 grain at pointo blank and 100 yards shot into water buckets.



And here are same bullets at point blank into cape buffalo this november in zimbabwe.



Only 3% difference in weight retention between the point blank shots into water buckets and buffalo. Nearly 100% correlation to expansion.

In the USA, Rhino's are the most expensive bonded bullet available. When bullets lke the North Fork are available at much less price, and they are a better bullet even at much higher or lower velocity, the choice for me is an easy one!

PS I received an e mail this evening from the distributor, Mr Isenberg,and due to the exchange rate of Rand and Dollar, Rhinos will no longer be imported into the USA. He has a sale on all remaining bullets in stock and you might want to talk to him.

Its a tough market to be second best in. Much less 3rd, 4th, or 5th best and twice the price.

Andy

My review of the .458 Rhino bullets fired from 450 Dakota.

425 grain Rhino.

A 425 grain .458 is a non-standard but useful bullet weight. I could easily reach 2,650 fps with RL-15, just 50 fps less than a typical 400 gr. With a SD of .289, the 425 gr./.458 is equal to a 160 gr./7mm or 225 gr./.338. This is adequate if not ideal for a premium bullet, especially one with a solid base. The Rhino has been available internationally since 1999. At $33.20 per box of twenty, they are less expensive than a Trophy Bonded Speer but 50% more than a similar North Fork. The 425 grain is a spitzer, while heavier bullets are RN. The Rhino’s are moly-coated.

The 425 gr. Rhino survived at PB range better than the 485 gr Rhino despite over 200 fps greater impact velocity. This well demonstrates the importance of testing your hunting bullets prior to going on safari. The 425 gr. Rhino lost one of it’s four expanded “propellers.†The 485 gr. Rhino lost three of four. The 425 gr. Rhino’s spitzer shape may have delayed expansion compared to the heavier RN. I sectioned both bullets and they appear to share a 3mm thick jacket, the thickest jacket of any bullet tested. The cavity for the lead core appears to have been made with a 5mm wide drill bit 18 mm deep. Neither bullet had any taper to the inside diameter of their jacket. This may adversely affect the bullets ability to expand at lower velocities. I would advise anyone shooting either Rhino from a low velocity cartridge like the .458 WM to recover one in water buckets at typical hunting ranges prior to actually using them. When this thick jacket is swaged into a spitzer rather than a RN, the jacket almost completely covers up the meplat, leaving very little exposed lead. To encourage expansion and reveal some of the lead core, the manufacturer appears to have used a dual diameter drill bit to decrease the thickness of the jacket at the meplat. This gives the lead core of a sectioned bullet a coke bottle profile that is highly unusual.

The 425 gr. Rhino penetrates 2 ½ water buckets, and has a permanent wound cavity of 14.7 cubic inches. This is similar to a 450 gr. Barnes X which had less expansion but more penetration, or the 500 gr. Trophy Bonded Speer. Damage to the water buckets was modest and is consistent with delayed expansion. Like the Barnes X line, the Rhino’s probably have a narrow velocity envelope within which they maintain the expanded propellers. While the Rhino bullets share the same basic architecture of the North Fork or TBBC, they are relatively crude in comparison. A tapered and swaged (rather than drilled) jacket might provide a greater retained weight, FA and velocity envelope. The 425 g. Rhino consistently shot 1-3 inches higher than the 485 gr Rhino with no difference in windage. It can certainly be used as a light plains game bullet in conjunction with a heavier bullet for dangerous game.

485 grain Rhino.

The 485 grain Rhino is probably intended for the 450 Nitro which is regulated with a 480 grain RN. Sectional Density is .330 compared to .341 for the 500 grain. With 20mm of solid copper behind the base of the lead core, there is little reason to favor an even heavier bullet. The width and depth of the core is 5 x 15mm, with the same un-tapered 3mm thick sidewall as the 425 grain spitzer. Since the bullet is a RN, a dual diameter drill bit was not necessary to thin the jacket near the meplat. Both Rhino’s functioned flawlessly through my un-modified CZ feed ramp. The 485 gr Rhino appeared to have a 50 fps velocity advantage over 500 gr bullets at similar pressure. Due to their lighter weight and moly coating, I could increase the powder charge 4 grains over a 500 grain un-coated bullet. Even in the large capacity Dakota case, this is a useful bullet weight.

I recoverd two 485 grain Rhinos. The first test shot was 2,527 fps, 86 fps faster than the 2,441 fps average velocity I had established during load development. This unexpectedly high velocity may have been due to not having previously coated my barrel with moly as I had done during load development. The Rhino lost three of its four expanded petals, and retained only 78% of it’s original weight. It penetrated 3 ½ water buckets and averaged .761 caliber, for a permanent wound cavity of 17.6 cubic inches. Two 22-36 grain bonded jacket fragments were found nearby the first and second water bucket.

Four deep, round indents were imbedded into the heel of the Rhino’s “solid shank†near the base of the bullet. The bullet expands into four individual propellers rather than a uniform mushroom, which reduced its FA but may be more likely to cut rather than crush tissue. The propellers must have hit the heel of the bullet with some force to make such a deep indentation. Curiously, the expanded propellers of the 485 grain Rhino were not as wide as those of the 425 grain Rhino.

I retested the Rhino after adjusting the powder charge 2.0 grains and recorded a second shot at a more realistic 2,426 fps. This bullet retained three of its four propellers, and 93.5% of its weight. What a difference 85 fps makes! Penetration was slightly less than the first shot. The bullet veered off course one inch in the 2nd and 3rd bucket, and two inches in the 4th, striking the interior sidewall near its entry point. I gave it credit for 35-36 inches penetration. A bullet which expands in a uniform fashion like the Swift and North Fork will track much straighter than one with asymmetric propellers. The FA (.472 square inch) was somewhat greater than the first shot. The permanent wound cavity was at least 16.5 cubic inches, slightly less than the first shot. The damage to the second and third bucket was greater on this shot, showing the importance of frontal area. The 485 grain Rhino did not tolerate high velocity as well as the North Fork, original TBBC, or even the 425 grain Rhino. But it is probably superior to the heavier TB Speer. The expanded propellers appear to be quite brittle at their base. There are over 100 copper and brass alloys available to industry, and a more ductile copper may improve performance of both Rhinos. My reservations about the unusually thick jacket not withstanding, the 485 gr. is best utilized in a .458 Lott or slower cartridge. The Rhino’s were accurate and functioned well in my unmodified feed ramp. The bullet profile with small flat meplat and radiused ogive would make a nice FMJ.

Thanks for all of this. My thread was really intended for the 375 - not the 458 - I am interested in whether the 380 gr rhino or 350 gr woodleigh brings the 375 into the true "stopping rifle" category. I am, and always have been, a firm believer in the 375 since I feel it offers the shooter the chance to shoot more and shoot more often. with the advent of the 350 and 380 gr bullets - if they really do work - then we have brought this great calibre into the range of the .400's and into the presumed stopping calibre. I generally do not hunt with my rifle although I do occasionally hunt - I mainly carry my rifle as a safety rifle in the bush and thus my interest in these bullets as a means of last resort. Are they delivering the stopping charateristics of a 458 or 416? They should given MV squared, but I was looking for practical situations. Has anyone been charged and stopped a charge with these bullets? Particularly someone who has stopped a charge with a 458 or similar?

Thanks in advance.

Berger,

My PH in Zimbabwe, Myles McCallum, seemed to be familiar with the 350 grain Woodleigh in 375. He reads these posts occasionally but has not written responses that I know of, at least yet.

Myles, if you are around and see this you might give us some details.

Andy

Berger,

You might also want to get in touch with Ray Atkinson since he helped in the design and testing of that 350gr Woodleigh bullet. I recall reading a few posts where he believed that this bullet brought the .375H&H up in the .416 class.

Mr Atkinson, if you read this post, could you share your observations and mabye a few pictures of recovered bullets if you have any...

Regards,

Enigma

Many thanks and I hope Mr. Atkinson replies.

I think Ray used the 350 grain soft point, not the solid.

My concern about the solid would be to shoot it fast enough to stabilize it.

Andy

.

Taking the above as fact, what then is the disadvantage of "de-pedalling" e.g. loss of several fragments of the superior part of the bullet due to fragmentation in the animal - that is - if the main body of the bullet continues through the animal. I understand in perfect weight retention that one would have a larger wound channel throughout, but fragmentation of say 20 or 30% of the bullet INSIDE of the animal would seem to distribute the area of impacted tissue?? One would not reduce hydrostatic shock I presume? Nor would you impact upon massive and instant loss of blood pressure resulting in death and would one not increase the odds of severing a major blood vessel by going for fragmentation and penetration simulataneously?

I spoke to Geoff at Woodliegh a few years back about the 350gr 375 bullets and he felt then that for big game the the 350grn's were totally the way forward with a appox MV of 2400fps with his bullets.
I for one am amazed at the penertration and accuracy possible with the 350gr solids.
Andy,
A friend of mine who hunts with Myles uses the 350's from his Blaser and has left projectiles with some of Roger Whittals PH's.

I just enquired to Huntington's I have ordered some 350 grs Woodleighs to shoot and see what they do. The idea intruiges me. I wonder if they will shoot out of my S2???

Aleko

Alf,

Shoot a beef steer w a 300 win mag using a 180 grain Trophy Bonded or WW Fail Safe, and butcher it.

Then shoot his pen mate w a Bitterroot, Kodiak, or even a Woodleigh, and we'll talk.

Oz, Myles seemed to like the 350 grain and also thought the 375 had superior penetration to any other caliber. He's seen enough game shot he should know.

Do you know what American powders Geoff recommends for the 350 grain?

Andy

This is my point of view for Rhino.
I have seen CChunter kill all those 50 animals with the rhino bullets and as a professional hunter I don't think the animals cared which bullets were used but they all ended up dead in good time.

Never did we find meat bruized bones shattered and hardly recovered bullets for the amount that we have shot and all showed perfect expansion on all the exit shots.

Rhino is a South African brand and works great we don't have the luxury to say find North fork bullets here so we get rhino.

All in all Rhino works great for me and other hunters in South Africa and I'm sure everyone as their special bullets they like to use but mine is Rhino!