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Firm's sick hunting holidays Jul 18 2004

By Tom Wells, Sunday Mercury


Wealthy businessman Robert Taylor is a man who leads a secret double life.

Because while he rakes in a fortune as a Midland landowner, he also organises bloodthirsty 'sporting' trips to slaughter the world's most endangered animals.

Mr Taylor is a key player in Britain's 'trophy hunting' trade - an industry where rich Western tourists fork out huge sums to shoot rare creatures for 'sport'.

Desperately declining species like cheetahs and leopards are shot and then stuffed for clients who get a sick kick from killing animals so close to extinction.

Animal welfare campaigners say trophy hunting - which, amazingly, is not illegal - is on the rise in the UK.

And today, a hard-hitting Sunday Mercury investigation can reveal that Mr Taylor is right at the heart of this blood-soaked scandal.

Last night an anti-hunting MP said he would welcome a Government ban on the import of hunters' 'trophies' into the UK.

And he was backed by leading animal welfare groups, who have called for a public boycott of the trophy hunting industry.

Yet Mr Taylor insists he is making no money out of the hunting, which he claimed was part of a 'conservation policy'.

Our probe began after a tip-off from an animal rights source directed us to the website of a company called Iwaba Safaris.

Iwaba has been in operation for more than 40 years and is owned by Peter Seymour-Smith and his son, Justin, who describe themselves as 'professional hunters' and 'conservationists'.

The pair run a sprawling 25,000-acre estate in the centre of the troubled African country of Zimbabwe and claim to specialise in game-viewing trips.

But behind the scenes lies a very different story - and one involving Robert Taylor.

At first glance, Mr Taylor does not seem to have any connection with Africa at all.

The 61 year-old enjoyed a reasonably successful career in pig farming before switching his interests to business in the early 1990s, when he became a co-director of Holly Farm Ltd.

Today, the Holly Farm Business Park, based in Honiley, near Kenilworth in Warwickshire, houses dozens of businesses and has registered total assets of more than �8.2 million.

But Mr Taylor is also heavily involved with Iwaba Safaris - and spearheads the 'International' side of the firm's interests.

A quick visit to one of Iwaba's two websites reveals that the company does not just specialise in peaceful game viewing trips.

"Iwaba Safaris has been operating hunting safaris for more than 30 years and takes pride in providing quality shooting for most categories of sportsmen," an introduction to the firm's 'game management' trip reveals.

Another website reveals how the package caters for the tourist's every need.

Would-be hunters are accompanied by an experienced marksman, as well as trackers and 'skinners' who are on-hand for the kill.

Accommodation is also provided at the 'permanent safari camp' with 'all meals, beers, wines, spirits and soft drinks provided'.

Even a daily laundry service is on tap, presumably to wash the blood-spattered clothing of Iwaba's trophy-hunting tourists.

A price list of trophy fees ranges from �1,350 for a leopard to just �30 for a humble porcupine.

For those wanting to hunt cheetah the fee is �650 while every child's favourite, the giraffe, costs a cool �500.

Clients would also have to pay a flat �2,000 fee and another �230 a day to shoot leopard or cheetah - meaning Iwaba's owners are making a cash killing.

Shockingly, the International Union for Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources (IUCN) redlist, which shows the official numbers of endangered species, estimates mature cheetah numbers at just 10,000.

Our undercover reporter posed as a potential client and called Mr Taylor on Iwaba's English telephone number.

"What are you looking to hunt?" Mr Taylor asked. "We do two types [of hunt] - the management and the trophy.

"Most people go for the management one, although you can't do cheetah and leopard on that one. But if you go for the trophy hunt, then you can."

Our man told Mr Taylor that we were particularly keen on shooting a cheetah or leopard. No problem at all, Mr Taylor said.

"We do both although the chances of getting a leopard are about 30 per cent. We don't say you will definitely get one by any means," he added.

"There was a US senator who got a leopard last year, which was good. It is always nice to get one.

"With leopard you have to put large amounts of bait down over a wide area and hope they take it up. There is a lot of sitting and waiting.

"But cheetahs don't come to bait, so it is a question of being in the right place at the right time.

"When you do get one though, it is a good feeling."

Mr Taylor even assured us that the mounting of a head of an animal would not be a problem. We could even have it stuffed if we wished.

"Yes, we do mount," he said. "We have a very good taxidermist just up the road in the next town who is very experienced.

"Obviously, taxidermy is expensive. So is the freight cost to transport it back to the UK. But if you are around long enough, we will introduce you to the taxidermist personally."

Our reporter later received a glossy brochure, together with an introductory letter from Mr Taylor.

It read: "The Management Hunt concept is one of selective culling, although we can produce some good heads should we find such animals which need to be culled.

Last night, Michael Foster, Labour MP for Worcester and champion of the anti-hunting lobby, said: "Most people who saw this would think it was a throwback to the days of the Raj, when people shot anything that had four legs and moved.

"I have a real distaste for such activity and I think the public would be of that belief, too.

"If a call were made in the Commons to ban the import of hunters' trophies, I think it would get a lot of support from across every party."

Animal welfare groups also queued up to back our expos�.

Douglas Batchelor, chief executive of the League Against Cruel Sports, is currently leading a campaign to ban the importation of trophy parts from critically endangered species into the UK.

"Under any circumstances, slaughtering an endangered animal for kicks is a vile activity," he said. "Anyone who profits from promoting this activity should be named and shamed.

"If the suggestion is true that trophy hunting holidays and fees in Zimbabwe are now supporting a globally denounced regime that terrorises its people, it is a wonder Mr Taylor can meet his own gaze in the mirror."

Tim Phillips, campaigns director for Animal Defenders International, added: "What people may not know is that if you kill one member of a big cat social group, you may end up killing several others, too.

"Zimbabwe is economically crippled at the moment. Poaching is absolutely rife and the country's controls on animal conservation must be dubious.

"We back any call for a ban on importation of trophy hunting parts into the UK."

When our reporter revealed his true identity to Mr Taylor, the businessman initially refused to comment.

But when we told him we would be publishing full details of his secret trophy hunting operation, he told us: "I don't make a bean out of it. In fact, it costs me money. I don't do it for fun, it's part of the conservation policy."

When challenged as to whether shooting seriously-endangered species could realistically be regarded as 'conservation', Mr Taylor replied: "No, I am not going to make any further comment.

"You just don't understand how it works out there."
 
Posts: 9535 | Location: Chicago | Registered: 23 July 2003Reply With Quote
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If anything is dubious it the the track record of animal-rights groups. The UK seems to be overrun with them. What good do they do except shoot their mouths off?

The NAACP of mother England.
 
Posts: 19380 | Location: Ocala Flats | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
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Interesting how an industry (and a recognised player) that you and I consider quite normal and beneficial can be represented as being bordering on illegal. I hate the freedom of the press at times!

Ian
 
Posts: 1308 | Location: Devon, UK | Registered: 21 August 2001Reply With Quote
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The liberal press in the UK just galls me to no end. They just can't stop playing the class angle. I think that's where a lot of the anti-hunting sentiment comes from. And it doesn't seem to matter if their "facts" are bogus. Always looking for a scandal. (Of course, we have our share of junk media here in the U.S. also.)

-Bob F.
 
Posts: 3485 | Location: Houston, Texas | Registered: 22 February 2001Reply With Quote
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Thanks for sharing that Kathi, what morons liberals are... there appears to be literally no limit at all to the stupidity of the treehuggers. Hunters and sportsmen contribute far more to wildlife and game management than any other group and that's a fact. Instead of whining and sniveling how about they put their money where their mouth is and contribute some hard-earned dollars to wildlife care and management instead of just paying it lipservice with their idiotic hysteria.
 
Posts: 863 | Location: Mtns of the Desert Southwest, USA | Registered: 26 February 2004Reply With Quote
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That is a sick piece of journalism! A couple years ago I came across a conservation organization that was focusing on an area of southern Mexico. They were researching the viability of the jaguar and other species in that area. People were invited to help out with the research by paying for the privledge of joining the research team in the field as a working vacation. This is good, it collects money for the research and they get a hands-on experience with the wildlife. However, about 90 percent of the website pages were devoted to a "Who's Who" of the organization and to the organizational meetings(boring/dull reading that didn't say anything) and full-dress dinners with all the pictures of the guest in their black-tie attire. Very little on the actual resaearch taking place with just a couple pictures of a tranquilized jaguar and ocelot. It seemed that most of the money was going to high-class partys. The usual liberal do-gooders.....it's all about them....not the research. What a waste!
 
Posts: 138 | Registered: 28 December 2003Reply With Quote
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If he's got any sense he'll file a complaint with the press complaints commission. These pig ignorant gutter press journalists deserve to be tied to a tree for Leopard bait!
 
Posts: 12415 | Registered: 01 July 2002Reply With Quote
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I'd also suggest that as many of us as possible e-mail the paper at icFeedback@mrn.co.uk and tell them what an incredibly badly researched piece it was and perhaps give an opinion on the authors abilities........I've already sent mine.
 
Posts: 12415 | Registered: 01 July 2002Reply With Quote
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Just sent my reply to this inane article...and listed my academic credentials to support it. Of course, they won't care about the truth
 
Posts: 3490 | Location: Colorado Springs, CO | Registered: 04 April 2003Reply With Quote
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It is worth sending emails but it won't make any difference except prove to the newspaper that their article is "working".

They will not care about the true facts. They are not "liberals". They are capitalists and have written an emotive BS article just to sell newspapers to ignorant fools. The more sensational the better. They will not even care about law suits. Most media groups expect to slander people from time to time and setup reserves for legal costs and pay outs. If the extra sales/profit they receive from the sensational gutter press article is greater than their legal costs + any payout, they are ahead no matter what.

I just find it amazing at how they can twist so much and so many things to have a bad image, a negative slant. An such obvious over the top language - daily laundry is to wash the "blood splattered clothes".

Every day I feel more and more we need a cultural revolution a la the Khymer Rouge (without murder) where the soft urban ignorant underbelly of our society is exposed to real life. Where meat comes from. Butchering and gutting animals instead of on styrofoam trays shrink wrapped frozen. To shovel some manure onto some vegetables growing in the mud. Instead of filling up stainless steel trolleys with air misted bland tasteless excuses for vegetables and fruit.

We are a 'civilisation' of plastic monkeys in concrete jungles.


(PS Steve watch out, a gory British PH murderer of animals might provide a follow-up! )
 
Posts: 10138 | Location: Wine Country, Barossa Valley, Australia | Registered: 06 March 2002Reply With Quote
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The problem with the English stems from the fact that the gene pool was selectively pruned in the first and second world wars. All the best men served and a lot of them were killed. That a nation that formerly produced some of the finest sportsmen and gentlemen in the history of civilized mankind is now dominated by the offspring of criminals, morons, malingerers and misfits is a tragedy.

By the way, the English still shoot a lot of grouse and red deer and everyone with any brains over there (there are a few left) knows that hunting is a necessary and effective management tool. They should have an open season on morons, or draft them and send them off to Iraq instead of using professional soldiers.

I don't think that much Cheetah hunting goes on in Africa, period, and certainly not in Zimbabwe. There is no importation of cheetah trophies into the USA at present. One can hunt cheetah in Namibia, where they are reasonably plentiful, but you can't bring the trophies back to the USA.

However, leopard are an entirely different story. The huge increase in plains game numbers in Southern Africa, fueled by HUNTING DOLLARS, has lifted leopard numbers quite nicely. South Africa allots about 90 per year, Zimbabwe a larger number (not sure how many, maybe 200 or so?). This is all above board and controlled by CITES.
 
Posts: 2934 | Location: Texas | Registered: 07 June 2003Reply With Quote
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I wouldn't worry too much about this drivel, those who read it have already forgotten it in another sex scandal or pictures of serial murders etc...the real tragedy is when people with power, pandering to these half-wits espouse these sentiments in their manifestos...
 
Posts: 2360 | Location: London | Registered: 31 May 2003Reply With Quote
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now dominated by the offspring of criminals, morons, malingerers and misfits ....




I thought these were sent to Australia.
 
Posts: 10138 | Location: Wine Country, Barossa Valley, Australia | Registered: 06 March 2002Reply With Quote
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Thanks for the article Kathi,
Steve I agree with you it is piss poor writing, problem is I agree with Nitro too and the more attention the rag drags in the more likely they are to concentrate on hunting in the future...or???
In any case, I think the numbers speak for themselves, Iwaba have been hunting for 30 years plus and nobody stays in the game that long without some clear thinking...
I am not sure about most of you here, but I have heard of the Mirror, The Sun, News of the World, the FT, the Telegraph & The Daily Mail. Mercury??? Give them the credit & attention they are due...zilch

Live to hunt, Fish to Live...blue skies all of youse
 
Posts: 133 | Location: Sweden | Registered: 24 June 2004Reply With Quote
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I am not sure wether to agree with you or ask you to shove your misconceptions about my country where the sun does not shine.
 
Posts: 1978 | Location: UK and UAE | Registered: 19 March 2001Reply With Quote
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Deerdogs,
As a Brit myself, I sympathise with your post, but let's face it, the politically correct, pig ignorant gutter press and other media have sadly made the great British public believe that meat grows wild on supermarket shelves and it's now safer in the UK to admit to being a paedophile than a hunter.

I have nothing but the greatest contempt for assholes who criticise my lifestyle and have now given up trying to convince them it's not a bad thing to be hunter......I now generally tell them " f**k you, and the horse you rode in on. If you don't like what I do, don't do it......but keep your nose out of whether I choose to hunt or not"
 
Posts: 12415 | Registered: 01 July 2002Reply With Quote
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Madonna with a Holland & Holland shotgun. Who would have ever guessed that?


SAFARI SLAUGHTER


Dec 1 2003


EXCLUSIVE

By Ryan Parry


WEALTHY British businessmen are paying up to �40,000 to slaughter endangered animals on hunting holidays to Africa, North America and Eastern Europe.

These "trophy hunters" are forking out huge sums to blast rare rhino, lions and elephants on the highly-organised safaris.

Wild game are tracked, killed and then stuffed so clients can ship their bloody souvenirs home.

And the venture - which amazingly is not illegal - is being organised by travel firms in the UK for more than 700 British customers every year.

Companies specialising in safaris and sporting holidays are advertising the slaughter packages over the internet and customers can book online using a credit card.

One website, www.sporting agent.com, offers VIP clients the chance to slaughter the "Big Five" - buffalo, elephant, lion, leopard and rhino from less than �300 a day.

The packages, known as trophy hunts, offer trips to the world's most exotic locations to hunt and kill wild game.

Other animals being offered as targets include cheetahs, hippos, polar bears, grizzlies and mountain lions.

This shocking "entertainment" has been exposed by investigators from animal rights group League Against Cruel Sports.

Records of permits obtained for importation of 'trophy parts' back to the UK reveal that in the past six years at least 40 African elephants, 32 leopards, 26 American black bears, 18 polar bears, 16 cougars, 10 grizzly bears, seven cheetahs, six lions and six hippopotamuses have been killed.

In a two-month undercover investigation League workers posed as wealthy thrill-seekers looking for a new challenge.

T HEY approached a string of reputable UK travel firms and were shocked at what they discovered.

Berkshire-based firm Roxton Bailey Robinson is one of many companies which specialises in sport shooting, safaris and fishing holidays.

But when investigators rang Roxton they were offered the chance to travel to British Columbia in Canada to shoot up to six grizzly bears.

Under the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species grizzlies are listed as vulnerable to exploitation for their trophy parts.

Not surprisingly, Roxton makes no mention of this activity on its main website or in its brochures.

On a different occasion, investigators walked into the Roxton shop in Hungerford, Berkshire, and secretly filmed a sales assistant offering them a chance to shoot baboons and zebras at the Ant's Nest game reserve in South Africa's Northern Province.

Employee Colette Ingledew said she could arrange a trip for as little as �180 per person.

She described how hunters would get up "really early" to track and kill game animals for either trophy purposes or culling.

Hunters there can choose to track and kill a range of species, including baboon (trophy fee �40), eland, oryx, impala, waterbuck, jackal, warthog (trophy fee �145) and zebra (trophy fee �550) either by stalking on foot with a rifle or on horse back.

Last night a Roxton spokeswoman denied the company had any involvement in trophy hunting.

She said: "We do not sell hunting, we don't book hunting, we don't encourage people to go hunting.

"We are an eco-safari company. If you want to go and look at elephants or look at crocodiles, that's not a problem."

Another large firm linked with trophy hunting trips is Holland and Holland, the royal gunsmith based in Mayfair and best known for supplying guns to the Duke of Edinburgh and the Prince of Wales.

It has also supplied shotguns to celebrities such as Madonna and her husband, Guy Ritchie.

The firm boasts of its long history of hunting in Africa, saying: "In the last 100 years it is probable that more game has been shot in Africa by visiting sportsmen and professional hunters using Holland and Holland rifles than any other make."

It adds that its Kihurumira camp in Tanzania is one of the best in Africa, claiming, "you have the best opportunity possible for an extremely successful hunt, particularly for elephant, buffalo, big black-maned lion, leopard and kudu... due to the abundance of game and the massive area that is seldom reached by hunting parties.

"Quotas for certain animals are generous and trophy fees are generally lower."

Posing as customers, investigators approached Holland and Holland and were told they could hunt down a male elephant at their Matetsi camp in Zimbabwe for the trophy fee of �10,000.

And on different occasions staff offered the chance to hunt cheetah for �2,000, crocodile for �2,000, hippo for �2,000 and lion for �4,500.

Prices quoted by Holland and Holland for package trips in Tanzania, Zambia, Zimbabwe and South Africa start from �240 per person, per night, including full board, airport transfers, safari fee, a licensed professional hunter, a tracker, skinning of trophies and government and other licensing fees. Dead trophy animals are shipped to South Africa where they are stuffed, mounted and sent back to the UK by a specialist taxidermist.

Bizarrely, when we rang Holland and Holland asking to speak to somebody about trophy hunting they said they had stopped doing trips last December and directed us to speak to Roxton.

Roxton later described this as a "miscommunication".

They claimed to arrange all package holiday deals for Holland and Holland but to have nothing to do with hunting trips of any description. Another London-based firm, Pemba Adventures, specialises in tailor-made sporting holidays to New Mexico and the American South West but investigators quickly established that the company can also arrange fox hunting-style trips in which mountain lions are hunted with vicious dogs.

Pemba also boasts of being able to arrange the hunting of the protected black bear.

Last night Rupert Mayhew freely admitted his company arranges hunting trips.

He said: "It's not illegal, it's all about animal quota.

"January is the best time of year to hunt mountain lion. The hunters use snow in the mountains to track the cats.

"It is much easier to hunt on horseback... but we can arrange to hunt on foot."

He added: "Either way, it is an exhilarating experience."

Another company, the Arctic Discovery Outfit, based in Cumbria offers the chance to track and kill moose in Lapland.

They use unleashed dogs, controlled by handlers who wait until a moose has been located and bolted before shooting it with rifles.

The firm offers hunting in the "beautiful unspoilt wilderness with ancient forests, big mountains, high fells and crystal clear rivers", adding: "the supply of game is very good."

A SPORTING agent responded to our investigator's inquiry with a breakdown of trophy prices.

Mark Curtis told us it would cost us �40,000 to shoot rhino, �7,500 for lion and leopard, �6,999 for buffalo and �10,000 upwards for elephant.

This hard-hitting investigation will send shockwaves through the world of wildlife conservation.

A report compiled by the League Against Cruel Sports is published today revealing that trophy hunting is expanding internationally.

The report, Wild About Killing, claims that in parts of South Africa trophy hunting represents almost 70 per cent of the annual revenue brought in from foreign tourism.

The region is also believed to have 4,000 big game reserves catering for hunting, with over 50 million acres devoted to game ranching.

Douglas Batchelor, Chief Executive of the League Against Cruel Sports, said: "Trophy hunting is a bloody business. It starts in the UK, with organisations that promote it, and organisations that sell it.

"If people knew more about this awful business they would demand it be stopped today.

"The League aims to put the facts before the people, by naming and shaming those involved in this vile sport."

A World Wildlife Federation spokesman said: "Amazingly, anyone can shoot a lion or an elephant within the law if they have enough money.

"Travel companies can easily get hold of the relevant hunting permits and African governments sell the animals off to gain revenue."
 
Posts: 9535 | Location: Chicago | Registered: 23 July 2003Reply With Quote
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Shock! Horror! People are still killing animals in Africa!

I thought people just killed people in Africa.





Guess plastic monkeys learn something new every new decade.
 
Posts: 10138 | Location: Wine Country, Barossa Valley, Australia | Registered: 06 March 2002Reply With Quote
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I wonder how many cattle are slaughtered for food each day in the United Kingdom? Maybe they ought to "investigate" that.



-Bob F.

 
Posts: 3485 | Location: Houston, Texas | Registered: 22 February 2001Reply With Quote
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Last night, Michael Foster, Labour MP for Worcester and champion of the anti-hunting lobby, said: "Most people who saw this would think it was a throwback to the days of the Raj, when people shot anything that had four legs and moved.








If the truth be know a lot would like to should we say (educate) a few with two legs, and especially the lily white SOB liberal polititians and the misguided new image greeny bunny hugger anachist fraternity ..



Happy hunting and conservation ( Tally Ho .. we're off to hunt the foxes and other 2 legged / sorry 4 legged vermin )
 
Posts: 3331 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 27 February 2001Reply With Quote
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Any place where a man gets a jail sentence for defending himself in his own home with a firearm against an intruder; where thugs deface nice automobiles out of class envy and rearrange people's faces with razors for amusement; where throwing up on the sidewalk after drinking too much warm beer is a common event; where football crowds go on the rampage on a regular basis; where gun ownership has been criminalized where once gunmaking was the spark that set the industrial revolution in motion; and where hunting, once a noble sport, is now deemed a despicable act, is a place where there is something seriously wrong with the public psyche.

Sorry guv, I lived there for two years and while my somewhat flippant diagnosis may be wrong, I have yet to hear a better one.
 
Posts: 2934 | Location: Texas | Registered: 07 June 2003Reply With Quote
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Russ, Old Son, as an American, alls I can say is you might want to look out of your own window and tell me what you see. I thought you were describing Boston, Detroit, Eugene or New Orleans when I first read your post and comments. Especially the part about the 'public psyche'.. That's us, Russ!!

Dungbeetle
 
Posts: 1370 | Location: Home but going back. | Registered: 15 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Only the ones dumb enough to get caught...

(and I have lived in Oz, admittedly for only a short time, but long enough to see some of the same genes in evidence down there. But much diluted, mate. At least the beer is cold.)
 
Posts: 2934 | Location: Texas | Registered: 07 June 2003Reply With Quote
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The Brits more or less invented and perfected "Safari Slaughter", and the necessary firearms. Now they are shocked that a few folks still take part in this tradition?

The Brits also invented the concentration camp, public beheadings, palace coups, torture/execution by drowning (using the tides of the Thames) etc. etc. Now they are oh so civilized, they are shocked, SHOCKED I TELL YOU, that some people like to hunt.

Madonna, wow, glad she's not in the NRA ad.
 
Posts: 2934 | Location: Texas | Registered: 07 June 2003Reply With Quote
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Not quite as bad, we have the NRA and you can still defend your family and property in most states and cities (except Kalifornia and Noo Yawk City) legally.

Incidentally, when I look out my window, which isn't locked, I see sheep. I left NYC because when I looked out the window there, I saw dogshit.
 
Posts: 2934 | Location: Texas | Registered: 07 June 2003Reply With Quote
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Incidentally, when I look out my window, which isn't locked, I see sheep. I left NYC because when I looked out the window there, I saw dogshit.






The very reason I left my job in the centre of London.



There is still a large and growing interest in country sports in the UK and I like to think that the majority of the population take the shrill voices of the antis will a pinch of salt. It is not as bad as the tabloid papers make out.



Take care.
 
Posts: 1978 | Location: UK and UAE | Registered: 19 March 2001Reply With Quote
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There is still a large and growing interest in country sports in the UK and I like to think that the majority of the population take the shrill voices of the antis will a pinch of salt. It is not as bad as the tabloid papers make out.








There have been antis around for hundres of years - there have probably always been antis though they had to shut up and eat the meat all the same once in a time.



The problel today is that the the "progressive" youth movments adopt the antis' philosphy and of course that suddenly makes it interesting for those politicians who want to filirt with these youth groups. So, they might be few but they spend at least as much time working against us as we spend on our sport. When we write about bullet performance here, the write to papers about how evil we are.



If you have a good digestion, you ought to spend some time on the Animal Rights Internet forum as well. HerrBerg (of AR political forum fame) and some other Swedish hunters have done an enormous job on a Swedish animal rights forum, defending hunting and educating the angry youngster on hunting and basic ecology. There ought to be more like them.



Regards,

Martin
 
Posts: 2068 | Location: Goteborg, Sweden | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
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It is a good thing the press in the US is referred to as free, as that is about all it is worth. I accidentally was watching Tom Brokow (sp?) for a few minutes last night, and it was non-stop Bush-bashing.

God I hope Bush wins, for a lot of reasons, but if for nothing else as an afront to the liberal press here.
 
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If you have a good digestion, you ought to spend some time on the Animal Rights Internet forum as well. HerrBerg (of AR political forum fame) and some other Swedish hunters have done an enormous job on a Swedish animal rights forum, defending hunting and educating the angry youngster on hunting and basic ecology. There ought to be more like them.





That is a great idea.

I wonder if the Australian examples would cope or resort to the ban feature instead of constructive debate.
 
Posts: 10138 | Location: Wine Country, Barossa Valley, Australia | Registered: 06 March 2002Reply With Quote
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Sure is an idea, if you can stand being told to f*&k off, then banned at the first whif of a solid fact....unfortunately, hunters in the whole of Europe have taken a laid back approach to public relations and as a result many people don't even believe hunting is legal anymore!! To survive, we must take a page from the books (a successful page too) the antis use: Always be LOUD AND PROUD- let the world know what hunting is and how important it is! Keeping your head down and hoping not be bothered is clearly not a winning strategy...

How many hunting/shooting/fishing bumper stickers do you see in Europe? How about WWF/Animal Rights stickers etc??? They are sticking that stuff up on lamp posts/mail boxes and everywhere else in Edinburgh. British hunters seem more proactive, now that foxhunting is on its last legs in England...

When people give me a chance to explain my POV, I try to invite them fishing (less of a visceral and a good intro to the so-called 'bloodsports') or encourage them to give target shooting a go.....when they act like pricks, I just explain that I will dedicate my next trophy to them and inform them that I may well kill a "couple more" since they made such a big deal of it and bothered me
 
Posts: 2360 | Location: London | Registered: 31 May 2003Reply With Quote
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Bog



What you say makes a lot of sense to me ...



The only BIG problem with a hunting sticker on one's vehicle in a [ liberal society ] with freedom of speech human rights bul....t is when the SOB anti puts a rock through your back window the SOB liberal judge will proberbly err on the side of the anti when it goes to court, and you the loyal hunter will be left holding the baby with the legal bills as the SOB anti will proberbly be on welfare system, come from an impoverished background, have no money and be freeloading and bludging off society ....



That is WHY some of the rednecks which I have some sympathy with prefer to meet out their own justice before the whole fiaso hits the legal system that favours the criminal. Remember in the UK and a lot of other liberal countries you cant take out a SOB whom has broken into your home and threating to kill you, it is a sad state of affaires that we have allowed this liberal crap to infiltrate our way of life. WE are told by the courts to use the minimum amount of force commesurate to subdue the villian without injuring him if possible. I would go along with that basic theory ONLY IF I was the one whom decided what amount of force was required to subdue the villian NOT what the SOB liberal lawyer and other do-gooder bleeding heart's might decide ...



Guilty as charged your honour



Peter
 
Posts: 3331 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 27 February 2001Reply With Quote
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Humm... makes me want to split the author's noggin with a large rusty shovel...

Unless literally dragged by the balls, I'm never going to England or France.
 
Posts: 1282 | Location: here | Registered: 26 January 2002Reply With Quote
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KUDOS !!!!!!!!!!!
 
Posts: 134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 10 February 2004Reply With Quote
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Mr Boghossian



Is this in your face enough that I am a hunter and a shooter.
 
Posts: 10138 | Location: Wine Country, Barossa Valley, Australia | Registered: 06 March 2002Reply With Quote
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Another benefit of doubles if or when dealing with an intruder.

One barrel, warning shot. Good for the legal side of things later on.

One barrel, the business shot.

The order is up to you.
 
Posts: 10138 | Location: Wine Country, Barossa Valley, Australia | Registered: 06 March 2002Reply With Quote
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Quote:

Sure is an idea, if you can stand being told to f*&k off, then banned at the first whif of a solid fact....unfortunately, hunters in the whole of Europe have taken a laid back approach to public relations and as a result many people don't even believe hunting is legal anymore!! To survive, we must take a page from the books (a successful page too) the antis use: Always be LOUD AND PROUD- let the world know what hunting is and how important it is! Keeping your head down and hoping not be bothered is clearly not a winning strategy...
How many hunting/shooting/fishing bumper stickers do you see in Europe? How about WWF/Animal Rights stickers etc??? They are sticking that stuff up on lamp posts/mail boxes and everywhere else in Edinburgh. British hunters seem more proactive, now that foxhunting is on its last legs in England...
When people give me a chance to explain my POV, I try to invite them fishing (less of a visceral and a good intro to the so-called 'bloodsports') or encourage them to give target shooting a go.....when they act like pricks, I just explain that I will dedicate my next trophy to them and inform them that I may well kill a "couple more" since they made such a big deal of it and bothered me




Let's see if I can alert HerrBerg to this thread, he has far more experience of debating with antis than I have. He has been banned there but some of the antis supported him because they found his posts interesting and informed so he was let in again. I have taken on some antis that have posted on a Swedish hunting forum, one of them a leading person in the Swedish animal rights movement. She tried to provoke but we anwsered polite and in great detail. Each time she gave up and left. We might not make them to like hunting but we can surely get rid of some misconceptions and sometimes even create some respect. As a result we will se less drivel in the papers and the public will not get such a a biased view. The worst thing we can do is to appear to hide - that will look as if we are ashamed of what we are doing. We must be open, taking the debate on and make damn sure that we show that we are proud of what we are doing. NEVER hide.

As to bumper-stickers, here in Sweden the Hunting Association's sticker was one of the most common stickers at all, 20 years ago. Now we were advised against using them as it show criminals in which houses guns are to be found. But if course, if you have a green jacket, a camo-cap and a German shorthair in the car, you might as well have a hunting association sticker as well...

Regards,
Martin
 
Posts: 2068 | Location: Goteborg, Sweden | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
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Nitrox, I think you get the idea.....but I sure ain't putting that mug on my car
Marterius, that takes some serious cool nerves to go on those sites and not tell them to....well you get the idea, I have heard that hunting is more respected in Sweden/Finland/Norway that it is further south.
Unfortunately, most hunters don't like to raise the subject or show off their passion. How many times have you known someone for yeeeaaarrrs before they mention they are a hunter (our neighbour of 12 yrs in Belgium turned out to have cut his teeth on forest hunting in what was then the Belgian Congo)? OK, maybe we don't stand out like a purple-haired hippy with a bong, and that is a good thing but many people are very reluctant to 'reveal themselves' these days...Until very recently, we never kept trophies on our walls, now after a few nice hunts, not even the plumber can wonder how they got there...the great thing is that most non-hunters are amazed by the animals and show appreciation rather than horror/disgust.
Hell, we never know, hunting could become fashionable again(see clay pigeon/pheasant shooting in the UK)! Whether you want that to occur is another kettle of fish...
 
Posts: 2360 | Location: London | Registered: 31 May 2003Reply With Quote
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Not even to come hunting and fishing?

We have plenty of it!
 
Posts: 1978 | Location: UK and UAE | Registered: 19 March 2001Reply With Quote
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Quote:

Not even to come hunting and fishing?

We have plenty of it!




Very tempting, but probably not. I'd survive the stay but will most likely be all bothered and irritable... :/

I wouldn't willingly travel to some states either *cough*Kalifornia*cough*.

I find that avoiding the sources of irritation when I can makes/keeps me a lot happier.
 
Posts: 1282 | Location: here | Registered: 26 January 2002Reply With Quote
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Michael Moore is the US equivalent of the UK tabloid press.

Sensational.

Successful and Popular in his/their markets.

Profit making.

No substance, No facts. Complete arsehole(s).

So the US has their own "taloid" except you don't even have to know how to read.
 
Posts: 10138 | Location: Wine Country, Barossa Valley, Australia | Registered: 06 March 2002Reply With Quote
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