Come on 500grains, you know better than that.

leo,

I've shot both bison and Cape buffalo. Cape buffalo musculature is significantly different (it's like twisted cable, whereas bison flesh is more like beef), as is its skeletal structure (which is somewhat thicker and positioned differently).

If you'd ever shot them, you'd know this.

George

I would be interested in seeing some empirical data on this, just for curiosities sake. I do not dispute your observations, George, but I always understood that a mature bull bison had thicker bone in the front quarters than a cape buffalo. Cape buffalo are more barrel shaped, and as a result bison are slightly narrower, but I understood that a bison of equivalent weight actually carries up to 20% more weight in the front end. Friends of mine that have shot cape buffalo did not notice any difference in musculature (and they even thought cape buff were equally tasty and tender).

Can't wait til I do go on a Cape buffalo hunt so I can make some observations first hand.

Canuck

GeorgeS, did you butcher the cape buffalo and bison? I am curious how you arrived at you OPINION. Here is another question for you. Have you shot both bison and cape buffalo with the identical firearm, load, and point of impact on the animal? If so, was there a difference in the animals reaction to the shot?

For example, if you shot both the bison and the cape buffalo in the brain with your trusty 30 WCF did they both immediately drop dead, or did one charge you while the other did not?

Or, after shooting both the bison and the cape buffalo in through both lungs with your trusty 375 H&H did one run off while the other dropped instanteously dead?

Inquiring minds want to know?

2 bore

PS - Canuck your friends observations mirror my own.

[ 12-13-2002, 21:50: Message edited by: 2 Bore ]

If you pull the hide back on a cape buffalo, you will see that the ribs touch/overlap while bison ribs are spaced apart, more like a deer.

Canuck,

There are distinct differences in the shape of the front half of bison and Cape buffalo. I don't have a copy of the graphics from "A Perfect Shot" and Boddington's similar tome on North American animals handy, but you can see the differences the location of the spine and the size and shape of the shoulders and leg bones.

Two buffalo and one bison are the only examples I have to go by, but I was there when they were all skinned, and a close look at Cape buffalo muscle will show them to be different than the steer flesh we are all so familiar with.
BTW, I prefer the taste and texture of bison to any other bovid I have shot, including eland.

2-bore,
In fewer than a dozen posts, you have proven yourself beneath contempt, and do not deserve to have your asinine questions and imbecilic statements responded to. Go play in your sandbox.

George

Sorry guys, but this logical thinking mind just doesn't buy it.

2 Bore, ToddE, TEG, Black Powder Big Bore ---

Give it up. You have no credibility assclown.

Deleted in the name of peace and tranquility. After all that is the reason for the season.

[ 12-13-2002, 23:28: Message edited by: 2 Bore ]

A lot of people who have never been outside the US seem to think that either bison or grizzly is the toughest animal on earth and the 45-70 is the most powerful cartridge. Open minds think otherwise.

Please 500grains, your rash statement proves that you have anything but an open mind. But peace brother!

Yawwwwwwwwwwwwn.....another 45/70 thread.

I can't wait till 5:00 PM a few shots of Captain Morgan.. then Duck hunting tomarrow.

This thread is like Bill Clinton you can't wait till the eight years of terror are over.

Urdubob

I am really starting to worry: two threads now where I agree with 500grains!

I also think the price of admission to these threads should be actual experience, or perhaps results of interviews you have done with folks with the actual experience (covers us writers).

In the clash of theory with reality I go with the real world.

jim dodd

"Since when is the bone and muscle mass of a bison not as tough as that of a Cape buffalo?

Since they both began walking the face of the Earth! They are simply two intirely different animals. The one thing the bison has is that thick matt of wooly hair around their shoulders, before you get to the animal, that the Cape buffalo doesn't have. But the cape buffalo has a hide that is as tough as any in the world, and a muscle structure that is like woven steel. The green hides are wrapped around the broken leaf springs on Bakkis, so they may be driven till the spring can be replaced. The fore leg bone of a cape Buffalo takes 1800 psi pressure in a hydrolic press to snapp. Simply because someone mistakenly called the Bison a "BUFFALO" means little, he certainly isn't the same animal! The Bison is simply a big cow, that isn't too excitable, and a well placed chest shot with a 180 gr .308 bullet will drop him in his tracks. Cape Bufflao are born excited, and get more antsey as they get older, and when a man, or lion is in the vecenity, he gets plumb full of adrenelen, in a hurry!

Drop in his tracks from a well placed chest shot? B.S.

chuck

I have taken 4 Cape Buff. While I have not shot a Bison, I was standing shoulder to shoulder with my brother who did. Waldo, as we named the Bison before we walked up to him and murdered him, was standing broadside at no more than 30 yards. A 500gr Woodleigh Solid from a .458 WinMag broke both shoulders and exited. Waldo looked very sick as he crumpled where he stood. Moments later we stood over Waldo whereupon we recited a short eulogy.

I helped cape out Waldo and quarter him. I was not overly impressed with Waldo�s physique. Sure they are big animals, however, chest structure was not as robust as the Cape buff that I have gutted - my opinion. Pound for pound, a cape buff can beat the crap out of poor Waldo.

[ 12-14-2002, 02:14: Message edited by: Zero Drift ]

Mac,

I'm not sure what universe you are living in but a .308 to the chest will NEVER drop a bison in it's tracks. Throw an FMJ .308 into the chest of either the NA Bison or the Cape buffalo and they will both die (eventually) provided you hit major arteries, lungs, heart etc. Neither of them are gonna die any time soon, however. I have never seen anything soak up lead like a bull bison. I shot one three times with a .416 Rem Mag (400 grains at a bit over 2400 fps) and he didn't even flinch at the first shot, slightly flinched at the second and only fell over when the third hit him in the spine.
Further, I shot Bison in the Yukon territory and I assure you that in truly wild conditions, these animals are excitable. I stepped over the ridge after my bull was down to find myself face to face with three younger bulls. They stared at me for an instant and thundered down the relatively steep mountain. Quite a sight!

JohnTheGreek

Getting desparate for topic material I see.

Will

You know, there isn't anyone I hate worse than a liar.

So, either some of you are some lying-ass motherfuckers, or you're not. Which is it?

On one hand, for "YEARS," I've seen you people, here and in videos and in magazines... mostly, "here," going on and fucking ON about what demon-ass hardcases these cape buffalo are to put the fuck DOWN! You guys use terms for them like "The Devil's Cattle" and so on. You know you do, so don't fucking deny it.

So now, you're trying to give me a blowjob or something, starting this fantasy bullshit about how "Ah, Hellfire, them thar' cape buff' ain't no tougher 'n the American bison." << spit >>

Well, look. Either cape buffalo are the mean motherfuckers you guys have been going on about since the beginning of fucking time, or they aren't. Now you're saying the cape buff' are just pussies????????????

Look, I slammed down a bison out in Nebraska with one round of 520-grains of lead from my Remington roller. Yeah, the guy running the operation said he didn't see that happen very often. I asked what "most guys" show up with. He said things like .300 Winchester Magnums, .375 H&H Magnums, and so on. You know, mouseguns.

My load for my .45 2-4/10" is 85 grains of black and five grains of Solo 1000.

I saw first hand how that bison dropped.

NOW you're trying to tell me that there's NO structural, physiologically-significant difference between the American bison and a cape buffalo? I've been reading and reading and reading, from you guys, mostly, about how these fuckers will absorb everything you throw at them and KEEP ON COMIN', and now you're trying to say they're no different to "put down" than the American bison?

You guys are smoking some seriously illegal shit.

Russ

[ 12-14-2002, 03:35: Message edited by: Russell E. Taylor ]

Russ,

You're a HOOT! Made my day. I can go out and split wood now. No one, I dare say, compares apples to oranges quite like you.

Merry Christmas
Joe

Russ,

just have a drink or two....The voices in your head don't go away...they just starting singing the same song. I've done this for years with great success.

Urdubob

[ 12-14-2002, 03:51: Message edited by: urdubob ]

/

Nothing against the University of Pretoria (I actually knew a couple Profs there), but it doesn't take a research project to figure out that the brain shot on buffalo and elephant is the most efficient!!

Will

Oh come on Leo! Really? you stay up all night thinking that one up? Perhaps if you'd seen a Cape buffalo up close. Beside the Bison has been called the dumbest game animal in the world.

Go back and polish your meplats!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

I have shot neither. However I venture that a free range wild cape buffalo could be a bit hardier than a caged sample of bison that has not avoided predation for the last two hundred years.

Conditioning of an animal certainly begets resistance and tenacity.

Then there is the individual factor.

My hypothesis is that some bison are tuffer to kill with one shot than some cape buffalo.

However, most cape buffalo would be tuffer to kill with one shot than most bison.

Instead of comparing bone and muscle I would think the size of the adrenal gland would lend much more insight.

I have shot both and they seem to die in about the same amount of time..The both run 50 yards and pile up most of the time...The Cape Buffalo is heavier in bone structure in the rib area, otherwise they are near equal..Bullet penitration is about the same and I shoot both with the same caliber big bores....

Farm raised Buffalo or Bison are certainly different animals when it comes to dieing, they die easy..Wild Buffalo and Bison do not.

The Cape Buffalo is a 55 gal drum of walking, snorting breathing adrenaline, a Bison is a docile animal for the most part, but can be really tough to kill in a charge and they do charge I have been told...Cape Buff are always being messed with by Lions, Bison are not....These are the major difference...

I doubt that there is a lot of difference in either other than the Bison is much bigger, and the Cape Buffalo is a lot meaner and tougher for the above reasons.

About the best argument I can give is, who cares,it doesn't have much to do with anything.

Mike:

Finally a sensible observation. Until you witness how much abuse a Cape buffalo can take and keep on ticking, it would be unbelievable. It is attributed to the rush of adrenaline.

Will

/

Many of you are muddying (sp?) the issue here. The original question simply related to the ballistics of a bullet through a bison or a cape buffalo...not how either might react to that bullet. I think we all KNOW that the average cape buffalo is much meaner and will hold on to life as long as possible in order to get even with the SOB that shot it. But being "nastier" does not mean that that a bullet will not travel as far through its flesh and hide.

FWIW, in my experience, Bison are not tough. They soak up lead much like a moose. They are big animals and they do not react much to being shot. But they are not particularly "tough".

Canuck

Russ - Honestly, I wish I could tell you that it was that exciting. The American Bison were almost wipe from the continent for a reason - they die pretty easy.

Look, they are big animals. As such, they can absorb some serious punishment. When faced with the prospects of dropping one, I would not take the task lightly. If you muff a shot on a Bison, you might just agitate it enough to be very sorry.

HOWEVER, IF you could lay out a Bison carcass next to a Cape buff carcass, I believe you would be more impressed with the Cape buff. The gap between the ribs on a Bison are huge in comparison to a buff. The mass of the bone structure is considerable on a buff. The two animals are not very comparable beyond four legs, a head, a tail, and a butthole.

NOW, IF physique is any gage of toughness, then the Cape buff wins in my limited experience. As to how many 500gr bullets either animal can absorb OR what the psychological difference is between the two, well, I�ll leave that discussion to you fine gentlemen.

Ok, in the strice since, bullets in several calibers that is the 375, 416 and 450-400 have reacted identical in Cape Buffalo and Bison, and as a matter of fact, the animals pretty much acted and expired the same.....

This thread borders on ridiculas as not a one of us knows the answer to the question, it's all speculation, based on nothing much...

Well,no matter what they say about ole Russell,he sure does cut to the chase fast.

Brian.

I just love it when there's a heap of hollerin and fightin and scrappin goin on, and then Ray walks in the door with a 55-gallon drum of experience and common sense, douses everybody with it and walks out the door shakin his head, tellin the kids to straighten up or he'll be back....



Rick.