I was at my local gunshop today, chatting with the owner about the shortage in the 22LR ammo. A customer who was looking around decided to give his 2c, and said that people were buying them in quantities because they work for everything from birds to elephants. I took exception to the elephant thing and said I don't believe it's possible, but he shock his head in pity and told me to do some research and see how many people have used that round to effectively take African tuskers.

Well, I don't research, I just ask you because it's easier Is there any truth or probability to these claims? Have you ever heard of an elephant being killed with this tiny round? I almost feel insane for asking this, but the gentleman sounded so sure

Brian - Some of the historian guru's here will know more about what I am getting at here, but there's a story from a game ranger long ago of a native poacher that took many elephants with a .22LR, I remember reading about it, but I cannot recall any details. Other than the ranger apparently caught the poacher and made him take the ranger out and show him how it was done.

The poacher would supposedly get really close, wait for the elephant to move his front leg forward - then fire a shot into the heart. The poacher would then follow the animal until it would finally go down! Obviously I can't confirm the story as fact, but I have read about it, and heard it numerous times???

Someone who knows more can chime in, but if true - it would be worth the price of admission to follow along and see it for yourself.

Theoretically possible but entirely irrelevant.

Lots of elephants and wooly mammoths have been killed with swords, spears, and rocks. That doesn't make them a "best practices" method.

Yes, it has been done, although I have not witnessed it.

I prefer a .458whatever or a 500NE, but that's based upon personal experience with killing Elephants.

Probably more Elephants have fallen to .308 (7.62mm) and AK47 rounds than anything else, although there are some who believe Mauser military rifles lead in the count.

I would rather use a .22 magnum. Better penetration.

I have never seen an Elephant anywhere other than the Bronx Zoo so I am no authority

I'm not saying it didn't happen but how is it possible that that tiny lead bullet is able to penetrate an inch of dirt caked hide, and a layer of fat before it even reaches a lung?? What if a rib is struck??

I believe there is discussion of this in a Capstick book.

I heard a story of it being done with a 22 magnum. I think this is more likely than a 22 LR particularly with a FMJ bullet. No idea if it is true.

I'm not sure about elephants, but I'm pretty sure that a large number of lions have been killed with the .22 RF. Of course, most of the lions are like these:

Lions

Elephants may have been killed with a .22LR, but I rank that stunt on par with someone beating a rattlesnake to death with his toothbrush. It might be possible, but why would anyone want to do it?

Bill Quimby

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:
Elephants may have been killed with a .22LR, but I rank that stunt on par with someone beating a rattlesnake to death with his toothbrush. It might be possible, but why would anyone want to do it?

Bill Quimby

Well stated.

Brett

It has been awhile since having read the account, so I'm not going to be able to provide a source, but: an accidental shot turned out to be a (perfect?) heart shot as an elephant was walking, killing the animal right off. If I remember right the shooter set about duplicating the feat the next day as they were in disbelief of the initial results. It may have been Hunter, but I'm not certain.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I believe there is discussion of this in a Capstick book.

I heard a story of it being done with a 22 magnum. I think this is more likely than a 22 LR particularly with a FMJ bullet. No idea if it is true.

You are partially right. It was in a Capstick book but I don't believe with a 22 WMR but rather a 22 LR.

The way the story went was a couple of guys were out to get one of their alloted meat elephants. They had 2 weapons; one a proper elephant rifle and also a 22 LR. They saw an elephant but due to foliage, didn't feel they could get a good shot. It was decided to sting it with the 22 thus getting it to move and present a better shot.

At the shot, the elephant took off and then, much to their surprise, there was the sound of an elephant falling. The bullet had entered just behind a front leg causing the elephant's demise after a 100 or 200 yard run.

The shooter, being a little too drunk with a game ranger mentioned the incident which wasn't believed. If I remember correctly, there was some kind of bet after which the two went seeking to see if such a feat could really be accomplished. It was, with a similar shot behind the front leg.

There was also the story, maybe in the same book, of a cape buffalo taking with a single 22 Hornet bullet behind an ear.

Peter Hathaway Capstick tells the story much better than I did.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I believe there is discussion of this in a Capstick book.

I heard a story of it being done with a 22 magnum. I think this is more likely than a 22 LR particularly with a FMJ bullet. No idea if it is true.

You are partially right. It was in a Capstick book but I don't believe with a 22 WMR but rather a 22 LR.

The way the story went was a couple of guys were out to get one of their alloted meat elephants. They had 2 weapons; one a proper elephant rifle and also a 22 LR. They saw an elephant but due to foliage, didn't feel they could get a good shot. It was decided to sting it with the 22 thus getting it to move and present a better shot.

At the shot, the elephant took off and then, much to their surprise, there was the sound of an elephant falling. The bullet had entered just behind a front leg causing the elephant's demise after a 100 or 200 yard run.

The shooter, being a little too drunk with a game ranger mentioned the incident which wasn't believed. If I remember correctly, there was some kind of bet after which the two went seeking to see if such a feat could really be accomplished. It was, with a similar shot behind the front leg.

There was also the story, maybe in the same book, of a cape buffalo taking with a single 22 Hornet bullet behind an ear.

Peter Hathaway Capstick tells the story much better than I did.

Sir:

I read the Capstick account. I was told the other account by someone many years ago.

Again, no idea if either are true.

The buff story was Aagards, he gave his hornet to a friend who was starting out on a new farm.

Dear Brian,
Do you know that they have removed the word " Gullible" from the Oxford English Dictionary?

What bullet to use??? Perhaps the "solid" lead variety (if the enviros allow) might be best. I fear the hollow points we use for the mighty and fearsome jackrabbit might be a bit soft for this task although they work handsomely, especially for stopping attacks, on the toothy and tenacious conejo terriblus. Of course, never having had the financial wherewithal, I defer to more experienced pachyderm enthusiasts.

quote:

Originally posted by umzingele:
Dear Brian,
Do you know that they have removed the word " Gullible" from the Oxford English Dictionary?

I'd like you to elaborate and explain your point so I can give you a proper response.

FROM THE HIGHROAD.ORG


twoblink
December 16, 2005, 03:51 AM
From:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=171313

LAVAL, Que. (CP) - A female police officer who was gunned down with a weapon powerful enough to kill an elephant had already met her alleged killer, whom she had arrested for harassing another policewoman.


Question:

Is it true that an elephant was killed by a .22LR? I heard that a long time ago, so I hope someone confirms it for me.

If so, then the quote "a weapon powerful enough to kill an elephant" simply means a .22LR or higher
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MatthewVanitas
December 16, 2005, 04:00 AM
Small world, I was wondering about that exact same anecdote just a couple days back. I believe it was from Elmer Keith's writing.

Story goes, some circus performer was messing around with his trick-shooting revolver, had an ND and nailed a circus elephant in the eye socket, dropping it on the spot. Also, IIRC, it was .22 Short in that story.

Anyone recall which gunwriter told that story, and is it just an old wives' tale? I'm sure it's conceivably possible, just not sure if that exact incident literally occurred.

-MV
twoblink
December 16, 2005, 04:12 AM
Ahh.. now it gets interesting, I thought it was a hunter in Africa who used a 10/22 and downed an elephant..

a .22Short, the Elephant slayer!!

"Death in the Long Grass" author, Peter Hathaway Capstick, once killed an elephant on a bet with a .22 LR. Shocked He was working at the time as a Kenyan goverment hunter culling herds that were over-grazing and rampaging through villages. He did not recommend the practice but he knew a particular spot where an artery ran just below the hide.

from http://talkblade.info/viewtopi...093bba16df9d56b3de64
Kurush
December 16, 2005, 04:22 AM
I think it was John Taylor who claimed he saw someone do that. I guess anything is possible but I think it's more likely that he was full of baloney or the elephant died of a stress-induced heart attack. Look at an elephant skull some time and see if you can find a straight path from the eye to the brain.
Lupinus
December 16, 2005, 08:52 AM
I'd say a myth as I would be willing to bet a 22LR would bounce off an elephant and he wouldn't take much notice. Though of course any gun can kill anything. If you say caught him in the eye or through an open mouth it may have...maybe. Possible? Sure, but the elephant is more likly to hop up on two legs and do the can-can with his buddies.
armoredman
December 16, 2005, 09:02 AM
One thing I don't wnat to see is a pack of pachyderms doing the can-can - those big skirts would look silly on them....

I can believe a 22lr caused a fatal infection with that supremely dirty bullet, but not a one shot stop...
Lupinus
December 16, 2005, 09:08 AM
I want that to be going through your head and the last mental image you have before you go to bed tonight armord, dream about it too.
Molon Labe
December 16, 2005, 09:30 AM
The secret to killing an elephant is knowing precisely where brain is.
Preacherman
December 16, 2005, 09:40 AM
There are two confirmed cases in the colonial era in British East Africa. Capstick refers to both in one of his books (I have it somewhere), and Taylor also confirmed it. In both cases, the bullet hit behind the foreleg, where the tough hide is rubbed thin by friction between leg and body, and penetrated a major artery, so that the elephant bled to death internally. The first case was accidental, and the hunter reported it to a control officer, who couldn't believe it - so the two of them set out to repeat the exploit, and did so, to the demise of a second elephant.

Not recommended as a stopping caliber, however...
Henry Bowman
December 16, 2005, 10:07 AM
The secret to killing an elephant is knowing precisely where brain is.Enough with the Republican bashing! :neener:
RyanM
December 16, 2005, 10:39 AM
There are two confirmed cases in the colonial era in British East Africa. Capstick refers to both in one of his books (I have it somewhere), and Taylor also confirmed it. In both cases, the bullet hit behind the foreleg, where the tough hide is rubbed thin by friction between leg and body, and penetrated a major artery, so that the elephant bled to death internally. The first case was accidental, and the hunter reported it to a control officer, who couldn't believe it - so the two of them set out to repeat the exploit, and did so, to the demise of a second elephant.

That's how I heard it. The first incident was an effort to spook the elephant into moving where someone else could shoot it better, and the second was to prove the first one happened.
Werewolf
December 16, 2005, 10:41 AM
In the final analysis: It is indeed all about shot placement!
JohnKSa
December 16, 2005, 06:59 PM
The first incident was an effort to spook the elephant into moving where someone else could shoot it better, and the second was to prove the first one happened.Correct. Capstick was not involved in either shooting, however. He was relating a story he had been told.

The shooters were two un-named brothers who were out hunting. One had a .22 and the other had a larger rifle. The brother with the larger rifle didn't have a shot on the elephant so the one with the .22 shot it to move it around a bit for his brother. It died before his brother could get a shot.
308win
December 16, 2005, 07:13 PM
I can be gullible but I would have to see this one to believe it. Anyone can write anything as the truth - just ask the person preparing King Jorge's intelligence on Iraq's WMD.
Mot45acp
December 16, 2005, 07:37 PM
Someone took the time to write it down and post it on the internet, so it must be true........Right?:scrutiny:
Mousegun
December 16, 2005, 07:49 PM
The way I heard it was that the elephant died from blood poisoning a few weeks later after being shot by a 22.
MHB
December 16, 2005, 09:36 PM
There are two confirmed cases in the colonial era in British East Africa. Capstick refers to both in one of his books (I have it somewhere), and Taylor also confirmed it. In both cases, the bullet hit behind the foreleg, where the tough hide is rubbed thin by friction between leg and body, and penetrated a major artery, so that the elephant bled to death internally. The first case was accidental, and the hunter reported it to a control officer, who couldn't believe it - so the two of them set out to repeat the exploit, and did so, to the demise of a second elephant.

Not recommended as a stopping caliber, however...

It was in Safari: The Last Adventure where Capstick talks about that. 2 elephants were killed by a 22lr. I have the text from that story typed up somewhere on my computer, if I can find it I'll post it if anyone is interested.
El Tejon
December 17, 2005, 08:37 AM
MV, FWIW, Mel Tappan, a gun writer I read growing up, wrote about such an incident. IIRC, it was a circus elephant with a .22 short. Do not recall if he mentioned where or when.
HankB
December 17, 2005, 12:25 PM
I believe with the .22/elephant story, the elephant has to be taking a stride forward, which further stretches the skin just above a major artery in what could be termed the "armpit" area behind the foreleg. A .22 placed just so in this spot will supposedly cause the pachyderm to bleed out . . . eventually.

Moving down a little (!) in size, I know a 20 grain Aguila Colibri .22 short (primer only, no powder) can down a whitetail if properly spaced . . .
nfl1990
December 17, 2005, 12:38 PM
If you had the right gun, say fully automatic vulcan type I think you could take most anything down with .22
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I heard the same story that Aaron Nielson reported from my PH in Namibia about 6 years back, except it was a .22 Hornet

I heard the story about the poacher using a 22lr from my PH when I was in Bots in 98. Maybe the rural version of an urban legend.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Yes, it has been done, although I have not witnessed it.

I prefer a .458whatever or a 500NE, but that's based upon personal experience with killing Elephants.

Probably more Elephants have fallen to .308 (7.62mm) and AK47 rounds than anything else, although there are some who believe Mauser military rifles lead in the count.

During Idi Amin's reign of terror in Uganda in the 70's, around 10,000 elephant and other animals were slaughtered with AK's.

My wife's cousin (an Archbishop with the Roman Catholic church) was sent by the Vatican to attempt to get Amin to stop killing people (as well as animals). He was unsuccessful.

My great uncle who was a great adventurer but also a bit of a story teller told me when I was a kid of his exploits in the Congo. He was a Swedish army major serving in the UN forces there is the fifties or sixties. He told me of one time when he and his buddies decided to try to feed a local village by going on an elephant hunt armed with their Carl-Gustav 9mm submachine guns. I have no idea where they aimed or how many mags it took, but supposedly they were successful in their endeavor.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick O'Shay:

Your screen name is AWESOME!

I am writing a book now about a bowhunter who, among other feats, killed two elephant bulls with just three arrows.

He used a 105-pound longbow and shot both bulls high in the crease behind a foreleg, and both died within a minute a few feet of where they were standing when hit. Witnesses say one of his arrows passed completely through the elephant!

Shooting an arrow into that "sweet spot" apparently gets the arrow to the top of the heart and the major arteries that feed it.

If anyone is dumb enough to try to kill an elephant with a .22LR, I suggest he put his little bullet high in the crease behind a foreleg .... and run like hell!

Bill Quimby

During a Lion and Buff safari in Botswana in 1984 with famous now Late John Northcote, he told a campfire story of seeing an elephant being taken down with a 22LR!! He said it was a very surgical shot taken broadside while the elephant was stepping forward with the front leg well forward fully exposing the lung area in the soft skinned area just behind the leg.
It was shot once and of course ran at the shot....and dropped about a mile later!!
I have no reason to doubt him....he was a very factual, no BS kind of guy!!
Cheers,

The late South African bullet maker, Ken Stewart once told me a similar story. His wife Cathy is related to Harry Selby and they were all ex-Kenyans. The PH Andrew Holmburg was somehow involved. He and someone else - can't remember who, had an elephant license, but only a .470 double and a .22 RL. An elephant bull was encountered, with its head in a really thick bush. The plan was for the carrier of the .470 to go around to the front of the bush while the .22 carrier was to 'prick' it with the .22 so as to get it out of the bush and towards the .470. Apparently the bull took a step forward just as the .22 was fired, but instead of moving forwards it backed away and ran off. Both the hunters were surprised to hear it fall shortly thereafter. The .22 bullet had entered the soft skin in the 'armpit' of the forward leg, passed between two ribs and punctured the elephant massive aorta! I had no doubt to question Ken's story - he was a great guy not the type of chap to make such things up.

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:
I am writing a book now about a bowhunter who, among other feats, killed two elephant bulls with just three arrows.

Witnesses say one of his arrows passed completely through the elephant!

Bill Quimby

Would you be referring to Steve Kobrine perhaps?

Magnum Magazine had an article on it 2003 page 61.

I cannot seem to find place to make attachment of scanned article.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:
I am writing a book now about a bowhunter who, among other feats, killed two elephant bulls with just three arrows.

Witnesses say one of his arrows passed completely through the elephant!

Bill Quimby

Would you be referring to Steve Kobrine perhaps?

Probably Howard Hill who took an elephant in 1928 with a 125 lb longbow ... link to wikipedia article above.

Sorry 115 pound.

Seems he also won 196 archery contests in a row, but I have no way of knowing what or who the opposition was.

Also acted in movies and so on.

He had a book wherein he also spoke about shooting crocs (IIRC).

"Research"ed PHC's version of the .22 stories and elephant. Capstick - Safari The Last Adventure - pages 114-116 - two instances

Youtube shows film of Howard Hill hunting elephant.

Bill, I look forward to your book. Traditional bowhunters in modern times have accounted for at least a dozen elephants that I'm aware of, and the compound guys have eclipsed that by a lot. The right gear, with a good operator, is getting to be very effective.

Why not throw stones its so mush silenter than a 22

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:
I am writing a book now about a bowhunter who, among other feats, killed two elephant bulls with just three arrows.

Witnesses say one of his arrows passed completely through the elephant!

Bill Quimby

Would you be referring to Steve Kobrine perhaps?

No. It's not Mr. Kobrine. I'm not at liberty to say who it is yet. It also isn't Howard Hill who was reported to have "kneecapped" his elephant with a rifle so he could be filmed shooting it with his bow.

Bill Quimby

That's a small fraternity of people Bill, look forward to the title. I'm a long-time fan of recurves/longbows myself. Have an inkling who it might be, but I'll be patient!

Cheers.

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:
.. Howard Hill who was reported to have "kneecapped" his elephant with a rifle so he could be filmed shooting it with his bow.

Now that I know that, it helps me better understand why the elephant is behaving the way it is,
as Hill keeps firing arrows into it.

Anecdotes are fun. They always raise a robust discussion. Then the arguments start as people get sidetracked form the original assumptions.

We start with - "Hey this is cool because it can be done" and then some how move to "Naaah, I can do better" to "You are dumb to try it" to "Mine is bigger than yours" .... get the picture.

Going back to anecdotes, I remember reading in a 25+ year old G&A Annual about a guy who shot a tiger with a Savage 22 Hi Power in Indochina or Thailand in the 1930s. A small tiger from the far east.

Another one - In India when I used to work in the British Tea Plantations, it was not un-common for some planters to shoot wild boar (yes the real big dangerous variety & not the feral hogs) with a 22 LR. These were almost always shot behind the ear from a blind using open sights at ranges below 20 meters.

quote:

Now that I know that, it helps me better understand why the elephant is behaving the way it is,
as Hill keeps firing arrows into it.

Believe it or not, I have heard it was chained! The lion too! Given the size of cameras those days and the rarity of the experience, I don't doubt much was done in the interest of making the film.

Where is Steve Kobrine? Haven't heard from him in a while. Anyone know?

Silly people engaged in self serving stunts have been around for donkey's years.

All one has to do is look at some of the youtube videos, remove any doubts he might have.