The subject came up on another forum about the shipping costs/taxidermy associated with safaris. One of the replies has generated a lot of negative feedback. I'm just wondering what you seasoned safari vets thoughts are? Here is the post:


"Gents,
My .02, Hunting in Africa is a process. From planning, to buying stuff, half of which you don't need and will never use to actually getting there.

The taxidermy is a fundamental part of the process, from which, in my opinion you cannot hide. If you Safari in Africa, anywhere in Africa and merely take a few snapshots and leave the rest there, you are devaluing the lives of these animals to a few megapixels on some SD card.

Is that who we really are as sportsmen? If this is representative of the demographic, perhaps the antis have a point.

If you go to Africa, take in the sights, the sounds and kill some stuff, take a few shots and walk away from the balance of your responsibility, you are in my opinion a killer only. Going on Safari, killing and walking away is no different than paying a woman for her services and throwing a few hundred bucks at her on your way out the door.

Perhaps reduce your trophy list by an animal or two and take some responsibility for your actions. Safari hunting isn't cheap, don't cheapen yourself.

I have an article coming out, or perhaps is out now in African Hunter stating these exact same thoughts."

We all see things differently."



And the same poster followed up a bit later with this one:

"Well, let's break it down.

What is the only cognitive difference between a photo safari and a shooting but pics only safari? Seems to me the only difference is the killing, hence my killing comment.

They are called Trophy fee's, trophy rooms, trophy shipping. You can't change the definition of trophy hunting simply to suit your needs.

I find just thrill killing repugnant behavior. And that is exactly what you are describing.

As far as mounting everything that I kill, yes, I do. But I would feel that Euro mounts, rugs, pillows whatever shows some feeling of responsibility to the animal.

The taking of life, to me, is not a casual endeavor. I have a great deal of respect for all life.

To my point about the Anti's. If they have an argument as to photo safaris, how are they wrong calling you a killer if that is THE ONLY difference between their safari and yours?

Not saying my motive are pure, just I have accepted the complete responsibility of the experience. I am not shortcutting it and lessening the cost just to go back sooner.

If I were a PH and my client was only taking photo's, you can be sure the real "decent" kudu would die and not get passed up in favor of continuing the hunt for something special."

This is from the same person who wrote that if one cannot tip appropriately, then they should stay home.

In both cases, I understand and appreciate the general sentiment and agree with the basic spirit of the arguement, but not the extremist all-or-nothing viewpoint.

I think this particular opinion is full of holes and double-standards, but it is just that, an opinion, and he is welcome to it.

...the funny thing about opinions though, they tend to change with circumstances such as age, income, family status, health, etc.

The animal was going to die no matter if it was killed for biltong, killed by a lion, or a trophy hunter or by old age.

Some folks claim to not even take photos anymore, they go for the enjoyment of going. I fully well get that.

I have lived in Africa (not in a Safari nation), hell I have lived on 5 continents. Travelled quite and bit and enjoy the trip as much as the hunt. That is the same of any great adventure.

Treating an animal as a monument is worshiping a false god in my mind.

I like taxidermy, but the idea of not some of these grandiose multi-thousand dollar mounts that were only relivant to a few months in that animal and your life.

My life has been much more than a couple moments shared with the wild creatures.

I am not so much a collector either. If a guy has to shoot every species of every species more power to him. I'd rather find those people and experiences to cherish and do just that.

There is a college kid I kind of laugh at on another forum. He's been posting on there for years, gets run off every few years and now he's back as an adult. The guy has probably shot 40-50 exotic animals in Texas, his parents have a lot of money and he's killed some really exotic species. His experiences are just that; behind a fence, Disneyesque, the outcome is pretty much given, no travel, and no interesting food (anyone ever eaten what the Boervolk call a puffadder, stuffed gemsbok large instestine?). He has had some interesting experiences, but they are tame with a given outcome. His house looks like an inventory of Texas exotic taxidermy. So I ask you, what are those heads on the wall a monument to?

Maybe I am misunderstanding you, and I am trying to no be preachy. Appologies to my non-Christian and Jewish friends on AR.

1 Corinthians 10:7-9

7 So don’t worship false gods as some of them did, as Scripture says, “The people sat down to a feast which turned into an orgy.” 8 We shouldn’t sin sexually as some of them did. Twenty-three thousand of them died on one day. 9 We shouldn’t put the Lord[a] to the test as some of them did. They were killed by snakes.

JG

In reading these comments you posted it would seem the author's intent is to start an argument. He may personally feel the way he described but I doubt he really thinks anyone who does not do the dip/pack, shipping and mounting thing is just a killer. Personally I mount what I shoot on a trophy hunt but I hunt for the "experience" not to hang heads on the wall. The trophies are just nice stuff in my opinion but stuff I like a lot.

Mark

I agree Mark
My only thing with after the hunt expenses ( taxidermy, shipping etc ) I really don't know the final charges
Everyone involved would be better served to produce price list for all the different charges involved in taking care of our throphies ( give and take small percentage difference ) before we commit to our hunts.

To each his own.

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
I agree Mark
My only thing with after the hunt expenses ( taxidermy, shipping etc ) I really don't know the final charges
Everyone involved would be better served to produce price list for all the different charges involved in taking care of our throphies ( give and take small percentage difference ) before we commit to our hunts.

I did a hunt in Namibia in May 2014....

I was able to pre-plan associated costs very close to actual.

I contacted the d&p taxidermist the outfitter typically uses and 3 export companies.

I gave the export folks size of box and estimate weight that taxidermist gave me based on if I was totally successful with what I would be interested in hunting. (Had a fun hunt and took all 4 animals I was after and a few bonus opportunities)

I left cash with outfitter to forward on to taxidermist for d&p and they were $25 less than estimate.....

Export handling and freight was about $80 more than estimate(box was a bit heavier than estimate)....

Import was same as estimate with only final shipping to me and associated insurance additional.

Just sent a few emails, and all were very prompt in replies.


Took a bit longer than expected, was informed paperwork etc was done early Dec. and box just hit JFK and awaiting delivery after USF&W clearance.

Now I'm just hoping skulls are intact and skins are OK.

It's an interesting notion that I've never considered before, that the only difference between a safari with no trophies taken home and a photo safari is the death of the animals. I'm not sure how I would argue that one against an anti...

But ultimately, it's your hard earned money, your trip, your rules (for the most part). If you hunt within the boundaries of the law, practice fair chase, and see that the animal is not wasted, I say enjoy yourself.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how wrong it may be! I must agree with Mark's comment, i.e. that this poster is merely trying to stir up an argument.

Without belabouring each individual bone of contention, I can't help but laugh at his comment that "You can't change the definition of trophy hunting simply to suit your needs", even as he apparently proceeds to do just that. According to him, a trophy absolutely needs to be a stuffed dead animal, or at least some part thereof. Anything less is a mortal sin, proof that you are nothing more than a thrill-killer. Since the author of the post gets to define "trophy", I guess that means that we all have the same privilege. To me, the true trophy is the memory of a unique and irreplaceable experience that culminated in the death of animal, but which encompassed much more than just that. The "hard-copy" trophies are there to help recall that memory, to keep it fresh in our minds, and perhaps to augment our mental playback of the events as the passage of time whittles away at our powers of recall. In that role, good photography, especially when displayed rather than merely filed away, serves at least as well as some leather and horn on the wall.

JWM,

This would place the killing of an animal as some sort of spiritual delivery vehicle that requires a ouija board and a hundred hail Marys.

It does???

Hmmm...must be a California/Manitoba thing.

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
The subject came up on another forum about the shipping costs/taxidermy associated with safaris. One of the replies has generated a lot of negative feedback. I'm just wondering what you seasoned safari vets thoughts are? Here is the post:

Since Mr. Raider did not add the quote to identify the OP I took this to be his words! My mistake and I apologize to Mr. Raider for assigning this to him, and will edit the post here, but the copies copied by others will not reflect that edited version!

quote:

;by ????
If you go to Africa, take in the sights, the sounds and kill some stuff, take a few shots and walk away from the balance of your responsibility, are in my opinion a killer only.being Safari, killing and walking away is no different than paying a woman for her services and throwing a few hundred bucks at her on your way out the door.

"Well, let's break it down.

What is the only cognitive difference between a photo safari and a shooting but pics only safari? Seems to me the only difference is the killing, hence my killing comment.

I find just thrill killing repugnant behavior. And that is exactly what you are describing.

As far as mounting everything that I kill, yes, I do. But I would feel that Euro mounts, rugs, pillows whatever shows some feeling of responsibility to the animal.


2nd article
"Gents,
My .02, Hunting in Africa is a process. From planning, to buying stuff, half of which you don't need and will never use to actually getting there.

The taxidermy is a fundamental part of the process, from which, in my opinion you cannot hide. If you Safari in Africa, anywhere in Africa and merely take a few snapshots and leave the rest there, you are devaluing the lives of these animals to a few megapixels on some SD card.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill C:
This is from the same person who wrote that if one cannot tip appropriately, then they should stay home.

In both cases, I understand and appreciate the general sentiment and agree with the basic spirit of the argument, but not the extremist all-or-nothing viewpoint.

I think this particular opinion is full of holes and double-standards, but it is just that, an opinion, and he is welcome to it.

...the funny thing about opinions though, they tend to change with circumstances such as age, income, family status, health, etc.

Of course the article's original poster is entitled to his opinion but,as Bill says above, it is simply one person’s opinion, nothing more or less.

It is evident that the OP is wealthy enough to do all he claims to do, and IMO simply disregards the fact that much of what we are discussing is, in a word, simply price gouging, and is the reason so many find it a problem. He is also, IMO, dead wrong about those who choose to safari in Africa but also choose to not be gouged, simply being KILLERS! Even if one can afford the cost doesn’t mean he will simply bend over to price gouging. When we get down to why we hunt, again in my opinion, it is the HUNT that counts. If that practice is done properly with fair chase rules, and the meat is utilized by others the fact that the skins are sold to offset cost for the safari company, or to decorate their camps or lodges I see no problem.

Then there are people like myself who simply have to save every penny to be able to go on safari at all, and after I retired and down sized along with a fixed income I have neither the disposable income, nor the wall/floor space to accommodate a lot of taxidermy above what I already have on the walls. That, in no way, makes me a thrill killer because I hunt and do not mount the trophies now. What I leave in Africa is not wasted, as it is utilized by the locals and the safari camp. My trophy is the honorable hunt, which is done within the rules and with respect paid to the animals I have taken by making sure he has the quickest and least painful death I can muster, along with making things safe for myself and others in the hunting party.

I find the OPINION of OP to be elitist in nature and is exclusionary of people who must hunt the only way they can afford. It seems, in his opinion, if you can’t afford several thousands more for trophies to be shipped and mounted and lay down the price of H&H double rifle as a tip, you should just watch films of those who can afford it! Personally I find that insulting!

I would love to have a 10,000 sqf home with a lot of wall space and the disposable cash to not worry about what will happen to my wife, who is younger than I, if I deplete all my savings before I die. I certainly will not be gouged even I had millions to spare, so in my case I simply have restricted my hunting to Alaska and a few states in the USA and North America, South America. Africa has priced me out of the game, but I’m happy those who can, still do! My opinion of, those who can (The OP), seems a lot less class conscious than some like the OP here seems to have of those who cannot! ………………SAD!

.....................................................................

Below you will find my post in an unedited version! I mistakenly assigned the whole article to being written and posted by Mr.Raider and for that I apologize as I was told he was simply quoting someone else!
It is hell to be dyslectic, old and blind!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
The subject came up on another forum about the shipping costs/taxidermy associated with safaris. One of the replies has generated a lot of negative feedback. I'm just wondering what you seasoned safari vets thoughts are? Here is the post:

If you go to Africa, take in the sights, the sounds and kill some stuff, take a few shots and walk away from the balance of your responsibility, are in my opinion a killer only.being Safari, killing and walking away is no different than paying a woman for her services and throwing a few hundred bucks at her on your way out the door.

"Well, let's break it down.

What is the only cognitive difference between a photo safari and a shooting but pics only safari? Seems to me the only difference is the killing, hence my killing comment.

I find just thrill killing repugnant behavior. And that is exactly what you are describing.

As far as mounting everything that I kill, yes, I do. But I would feel that Euro mounts, rugs, pillows whatever shows some feeling of responsibility to the animal.


2nd article
"Gents,
My .02, Hunting in Africa is a process. From planning, to buying stuff, half of which you don't need and will never use to actually getting there.

The taxidermy is a fundamental part of the process, from which, in my opinion you cannot hide. If you Safari in Africa, anywhere in Africa and merely take a few snapshots and leave the rest there, you are devaluing the lives of these animals to a few megapixels on some SD card.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill C:
This is from the same person who wrote that if one cannot tip appropriately, then they should stay home.

In both cases, I understand and appreciate the general sentiment and agree with the basic spirit of the argument, but not the extremist all-or-nothing viewpoint.

I think this particular opinion is full of holes and double-standards, but it is just that, an opinion, and he is welcome to it.

...the funny thing about opinions though, they tend to change with circumstances such as age, income, family status, health, etc.

Of course Mr. Raider is entitled to his opinion but,as Bill says above, it is simply one person’s opinion, nothing more or less.

It is evident that Mr. Raider is wealthy enough to do all he claims to do, and IMO simply disregards the fact that much of what we are discussing is, in a word, simply price gouging, and is the reason so many find it a problem. He is also, IMO, dead wrong about those who choose to safari in Africa but also choose to not be gouged, simply being KILLERS! Even if one can afford the cost doesn’t mean he will simply bend over to price gouging. When we get down to why we hunt, again in my opinion, it is the HUNT that counts. If that practice is done properly with fair chase rules, and the meat is utilized by others the fact that the skins are sold to offset cost for the safari company, or to decorate their camps or lodges I see no problem.

Then there are people like myself who simply have to save every penny to be able to go on safari at all, and after I retired and down sized along with a fixed income I have neither the disposable income, nor the wall/floor space to accommodate a lot of taxidermy above what I already have on the walls. That, in no way, makes me a thrill killer because I hunt and do not mount the trophies now. What I leave in Africa is not wasted, as it is utilized by the locals and the safari camp. My trophy is the honorable hunt, which is done within the rules and with respect paid to the animals I have taken by making sure he has the quickest and least painful death I can muster, along with making things safe for myself and others in the hunting party.

I find the OPINION of OP to be elitist in nature and is exclusionary of people who must hunt the only way they can afford. It seems, in his opinion, if you can’t afford several thousands more for trophies to be shipped and mounted and lay down the price of H&H double rifle as a tip, you should just watch films of those who can afford it! Personally I find that insulting!

I would love to have a 10,000 sqf home with a lot of wall space and the disposable cash to not worry about what will happen to my wife who is younger than if I deplete all my savings before I die. I certainly will not be gouged even I had millions to spare, so in my case I simply have restricted my hunting to Alaska and a few states in the USA and North America, South America. Africa has priced me out of the game, but I’m happy those who can, still do! My opinion of, those who can, seems a lot less class conscious that some like the OP here seems to have of those who cannot! ………………SAD!

.....................................................................

Yeah, you might want to go back and reread the opening post. JGRaider was quoting someone else's comments, they're not his.

Mack

Those are not JG's words

He imported a quote from another forum for opinion

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
Mack

Those are not JG's words

He imported a quote from another forum for opinion

My mistake! Apologize to mister Raider. However the opinion of the words still stand! I will edit my post accordingly!

quote:

Originally posted by Biddleman:
Yeah, you might want to go back and reread the opening post. JGRaider was quoting someone else's comments, they're not his.

You are right and I have edited my post to reflect the mistake!

Not a problem guys. Honest mistake. I didn't agree with him on the other board either, but wanted to solicit you guys opinions as well since lots of you guys have lots of safari experience.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Biddleman:
Yeah, you might want to go back and reread the opening post. JGRaider was quoting someone else's comments, they're not his.

You are right and I have edited my post to reflect the mistake!

No blood, no foul.
I do give you an A for your initial response.