The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting 9.3 x 62 v. 375 H&HGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| 9.3 x 62 v. 375 H&H | Login/Join |
one of us |
I want to buy one gun for hunting on the African continent that would be good for everything, warthog to eland, to lion, to buffalo. I had decided on the 375 H&H due to the mild recoil, availability & cost of factory ammo, not to mention the ballistics are almost the same as my 30-06. Then I saw Ray's add for the 9.3 x 62 and started to learn something about it. Looks pretty interesting. Considering my needs as outlined above, what do you guys think would best fit the bill? | ||
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| one of us |
I believe that there are countries in Africa with a minimum calibre restriction for dangerous game.inc Buffalo. Think this mandates the .375HH as the calibre of choice. Not that the animal would notice the difference! ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} Ian | |||
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EVEN IF both WERE exactly equal in capability; which one has ammo available anywhere on the planet, which has the greatest variety of loaded ammo, which one has LOTS of reloading components choices, which caliber has more choices in rifles, weights, bbl lengths, stock makeup and designs, which is a standard caliber for every custom rifle maker, which has been successfully used time and again to take everything on the planet, and do it well, The answer is the same for all of the above. .375H&H | |||
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Apparantly some are not familier with the 9.3x62 and are applying American standards to the caliber when in fact rifles, ammo, components etc. are available in the African and other countries as it is still a very popular alternative elsewhere, most Europeans bring the 9.3x62 and 9.3x64 into our Zim, Tanzania, Botswana camps. the last couple of stores in Africa that I was in had 9.3x62 ammo in them, and one had no 375 H&H.. Also when handloaded it is legal in Zimbabwe, RSA and most every place, and even with factory ammo I have never seen it questioned, African game officials being a practical lot. Tanzania has a 375 limit but the 9.3x62 is allowed by all the game scouts and the minister of Wildlife told me not to worry about such matters... I will suggest that the 375 is a slightly more powerfull round and probably a better choice these days in the USA, I personally feel one is as good as the other in Africa...I will always have one of each in my gun cabinet. I feel the above posts are invalid in their reasoning, but agree with their final decision, the 375 H&H is the better choice for someone other than a gunnut.... | |||
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| <GlennB> |
I currently own a .375. It has done a great job for me in Africa and here in North America. If I had the money (taxidermy, you know), I would buy Ray's rifle in a heartbeat. It has something that is not readily explained. Kind of like going hunting with a 505 Gibbs. Character? History? Who knows? But, a 9.3 is definitaly on the acquire list. | ||
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| <Aaron Rust> |
As far as Namibia the law works on energy not bore and on top of that it is almost a suggestion and not a hard law to my observation. As far as any diffence in the round the game that you shoot can not tell the difference nor is there probably anyone on this forum whose shooting is so good or poor to justify any difference. IN MY NEVER HUMBLE OPINION Aaron | ||
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one of us |
SBT, The most practical or 99% answer to your question is a rifle in caliber .375 H&H. The 1% answer is the 9.3X62. Sort of like one of those trick answer questions as it were. You could try the experiment of checking the gun shops in Jackson hole for the two (rifles and ammunition), and then the common websites like Cabelas, Midway, Graf & Sons for ammo. The African Hunter website has both cartridges written up in the archive. http://african-hunter.com/classic_cartridges.htm jim dodd | |||
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PH Kevin Robertson wrote me that his 9.3x62 has been used by him and his clients to take over 650 buffalo over the years, so it certainly can do the job on dangerous game with proper bullet selection and shot placement. It can also be chambered in trimmer, lighter rifles than the .375 H&H due to its lower recoil. That said, however, for the visiting hunter with limited time, the marginal superiority of the .375 H&H may make the difference between anchoring your game and it getting away, especially on the bigger stuff. Interestingly, the .376 Steyr seems to perform like the .375 H&H in same-length barrels, but apparently with recoil more like the 9.3x62. It may indeed be the happy medium between them. | |||
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I have a .375 H&H, 9,3 x 62mm, and a .358 Norma. I have shot loads of stuff with the first two. My test is always on Zebra, Wildebeeste, and Eland. The two dispatch them in short order with good bullets. I look at them as equals even on buffalo. I feel that most medium bores with heavy bullets will kill a buffalo if a good shot is presented. The Norma is a new addition and again I will try it out on a feral cow or two before I take it over to Africa. To me the .358 is a good balace like the two, it actually reminds me of the .375\.338 CT that was almost turned into a factory load. The 9,3 x62 mm is my favorite just because when you CARRY a rifle all day weight does become an issue. with all this the .375 is the BEST choice, especially when SAA loses your ammunition. .375 is the easiest to find. Aleko [ 04-21-2003, 00:52: Message edited by: Heritage Arms ] | |||
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| <JOHAN> |
SBT You said African continent that would be good for everything, warthog to eland, to lion, to buffalo. I would suggest a 404 or 416, because they are legall in all aspects and have more to offer for the buff and lion. If you load any of them with a 350 grainer it will be good for the slightly longer shoots on plains game. My first rifle was a 375H&H and now I have forgotten about it and likes 9,3's. The 9,3X62 is a great round that will fit in a stadard mauser action. Ammo should not be hard to find and there are fairly good selection of bullets If you would ilke to go a step up there is a 9,3X70. I would suggest two rifles a 9,3/338 and a 404 or 416 caliber of some sort. Shoot palcement is the most important factor in all hunting ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} / JOHAN | ||
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| One of Us |
I have a .375 H7H and while I feel like I am doubling up a little with getting a 9.3x62 Ray has talked the caliber up so much (along with others on this forum) I could not cope any longer so I have a cz 9.3x62 on the way. I have heard it is .375 power with 30/06 recoil and a trimmer rifle | |||
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one of us |
I've never owned or shot a 9.3x62 so I can't answer which is better, but I've owned a half a dozen .375H&H Mags and loved ALL of them! One of the greatest big game cartridges of all time since it's inception in 1912! IF I had to have just one rifle to hunt the world there is no question which I'd pick. Holland and Holland's own 375 caliber has accounted for over 50 head of big game for me and I've seen that many more animals shot with them with no complaints. | |||
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| one of us |
And what of the 9.3x64? This one is the equal, perhaps a touch better, then the 375 H&H. Any experience with this one? ~~~Suluuq | |||
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| one of us |
When and if components become readily available the 9.3x64 will be the best of the bunch, it is THE most versitile caliber I can imagine.. Flatter than a 375 H&H and every bit as powerfull; better penitration and works through a standard leanth action; and is void of the supposedly horrible belt, a condemnation of the 375 H&H that I have never bought off on, but many of the overly techinical have and do....It is truly a fantastic caliber, anyway you cut it.... | |||
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Given the fact that the 9.3x62 and the 9.3x64 were both created before the .375H&H, one wonders why in the world Holland would introduce a cartridge with duplicate ballistics that required extensive modification to the existing rifles. It defies logic. If the .375 were invented today, it would suffer the same fate as .376 Steyr. It can also be said that the 9.3 cartridges continue to gain favor after nearly 100 years. Whereas the .375 has been improved, blown out, ultra-ed and debelted every which way possible in an attempt to make its efficiency equal its length. | |||
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quote:Yeah right. I almost feel stupid writing a post to defend the .375 H&H, it's kind of like writing a thesis to prove the world is round. The .375 might have been ultra-ed and debelted, but it's never been improved. As far as extensive modifications of existing rifles, who cares? Very few people then and now modified rifles to new calibers. It's every bit as easy to build a rifle in .375 H&H as any other caliber and as a bonus the .375 generally feeds better than 99.99% of all the rounds out there. Show me any .375 H&H that you've ever seen that didn't feed slicker than owl shit, I'm betting you can't. Contrary to what a lot of the belt haters think, the belt on holland's .300 and .375 has a definite purpose. It allows these slick feeding wonders to properly headspace in a loosely cut chamber, thus ensuring 100% reliability in the worst of conditions. Try getting dust, dirt and grime on your 9.3x62 rounds and see if you can close the bolt on a round that headspaces on the shoulder given it's .006" or less headspacing. Now do the same on a .375 round with it's .012" or greater clearance at the shoulder (which you have since it headspaces on the belt). See which one you'll be able to get the bolt closed on when that lion is looking to make you into a cheeseburger. It's true the holland rounds weren't designed for reloading, although this is easily overcome, but they were designed for 100% reliable feeding and utterly reliable performance. I'd challenge anyone to come up with anything more "efficient" than these nearly 100 year old cartridges. It constantly amazes me how we have to reinvent the wheel. We can't seem to figure out some things that were common knowledge 80 years ago. | |||
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I suspect the H&H taper was designed mainly for ease in loading the Brit cordite powder and easy extraction and that feeding issues were secondary . The Brits also came up with the .416 Rigby during the same era and it has quite a sharp shoulder. And no one bitches about feeding with the Rigby either. In my admitted limited experience of loading for one .375 rifle , I have found it difficult to best 2700 fps with 270 gr bullets , with most loads running 2600ish . With my long throated Whelen , it is easy to get 2600+ with 250 gr slugs and no doubt the 9.3 would better that by some. I would see the 9.3 as a better choice because of much livelier handling factory rifles available that hold moree ammunition . The .375 only wins because of wide ammo distribution , and that may not be the case in Africa . I think the manufacturers need to put their .375 rifles on a diet . They are way heavier, bulkier , and slower handling than needed for a cartridge of that power.... [ 04-21-2003, 17:05: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ] | |||
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one of us |
SBT, Another big fact to consider is how often are you going to hunt Africa ? If you are not going to be in Africa at least twice a year I don't see you running out of ammo very quickly. Another big plus point for the 9.3 is that a ph will feel much more confident in you when brining a milder recoiling rifle that hoits the spot every time. A gut shot animal gut shot with a 577 TREX is still a gut shot animal if you know what I mean. Go with what you like do you like the classic 9.3 or do you want a working rifle. | |||
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The 375, 9.3x64 and 9.3x62 are all equal to each other in every way, at least in the field..If I was wanting a new gun, I'd pick the gun I liked and take whatever of the 3 above calibers it happened to be.. All the hoopla is just that, expounding on one over the other for whatever reason holds little water, they are all great DGR's of equal performance. | |||
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| one of us |
I certainly don't plan to argue with Mr. Atkinson. As for why some of us are so fond of the 9.3x62, well, if an animal can tell the difference between a 300 gr. 9.3mm bullet at 2,350 fps and and 300 gr. 375 bullet at 2,500 fps, I'd like to be told about it. I don't have you fellers' experience so if you think it makes a difference please pipe up. Because...if it doesn't make a significant difference in killing ability why suffer the additional punishment of a 375? The latter kicks more, is heavier, and doesn't have as much magazine capacity. And lest anyone poo-poo the recoil issue, it's not trivial to those of us who have had detached retinas. Oh yeah, trajectory. Who uses either of these rounds for targets past 300 yards? And if you do, you will have to know the distance and trajectory anyway, and your hold-over will have to be precise in both cases. It seems to me that the 9.3x62 is a very well-balanced cartridge. | |||
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| one of us |
SBT I do not want to go anywhere with only one rifle. I do not like all of my eggs in one basket. If I thought a certain calibre was the only choice, I would take two rifles of the same calibre in case one broke. [Now,that might be against the rules of some countries, which is OK really as that would be like dating identical twins ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon} , and where is the excitement in that???]A better "plan" in my book would be to have a 9.3x62 and a 416 Rem Mag. If recoil is a problem just load the 416 to 450/400 specs, ie a 400gr bullet at @2150. Use the 416 for the really big stuff, the 9.3 for everything else. Both rifles if properly made should be "shootable" and could do the "job" of the other if necessary. And you would have a really big bore in the 416. Based upon my use and shooting of my 9.3x74R double, at 7.25lbs, it has the recoil of a 30-06 and kills as well as the 375. My 450/400 at 9.25lbs is more plesant to shoot than any 375H&H I have fired. | |||
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| one of us |
Actually my best advice would be to get a good 9.3x62 and a 450/400 double. That would be a true world wide hunting pair..... Anyone else agree? Disagree??? | |||
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Moderator |
No offence intended, but I always get a chuckle out of this whole 9.3x62, 9.3x64, 375 H&H discussion. Its totally the African Forum equivalent of the 270 vs 308 Win vs 30-06 discussion, with even less to separate them. I like the 9.3's. Wish I had one. I'm partial to the x64 (seems less common, and therefore "cooler"), but a x62 would sure be nice in the cabinet too. I do not contest anyone's claims that a 9.3x62 is good buff medicine, or that it does all the 375 Ouch and Ouch does, but realistically, it has more in common with the 35 Whelen than it has the 375. (So, by extension, the 35 Whelen should be good buff medicine too, right? But then where do you stop?!?) I think I would like a "9.3 STA" (ie. 8mm Rem Mag necked up to .366. Now that sure would be a flat shootin' all-round safari rifle. More case capacity than a 375 H&H and the more streamlined .366 bullet. It would be unique too. Has anyone made one of these already? If so, what did they call it?Cheers, Canuck | |||
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one of us |
This pas weekend I borrowed my 9.3x62 to a guy to shoot a Kudu, before hand he said he wanted a 30-06 don't see the need for a 9.3x62 and so on. I told him take it or dont hunt, (he was doing it for free) One shoulder shot with the 9.3 on a small bull and I could not get the guy to shut up, He kept going on how impressed he was and man it is a great round and kept going on how good it was light, easy to swing and fire and so on | |||
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| <JOHAN> |
quote:I seems like you are prowling for a 9,3X70 It would be great to get a faster 9,3. I would much rather like to get a beltess case like a 404 with a 30 degree shoulder and loong neck. Canuck, Imagine necking down Saeed's 375-404 to 9,3, what a star cruiser Swift used to make a 300 grain bullet, that would certainly be something ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} / JOHAN | ||
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| one of us |
There have been some great replies here, thanks for your thoughts. One more question, why do some folks write 9.3 and others 9,3? | |||
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| one of us |
In the US we put periods and commas opposite of where they were originally used. Monies are listed as 2.000,00 for what we know as 2,000.00 and hence measurements are listed as 9,3x62 for what we know as 9.3x62 | |||
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one of us |
Once in Cobol there was a declaration: DECIMAL POINT IS COMMA. Just a difference in mathematical separators managing. When I was child, my teacher explained to me to write numbers in this way: 1˙000˙000,001 where "˙" is the separator for hundred, thousands etc and "," is separator between units and decimals. I think that this is the European way to write numbers. 1,000,000.001 this should be the American way to write numbers. Am I wrong? ![[Cool]](images/icons/cool.gif){kind=icon} Bye | |||
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| one of us |
I suggest a better explanation is we usually hit the wrong key from time to time....It should be a period not a ,,,,, ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| <JOHAN> |
Gentlemen Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I would have the 9,3X62 ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} ALF Do you think that the 9,3X70 or 9,3-375 would be equial of the 375 / JOHAN | ||
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Alf, You assesment of the 9.3x62, 375 comparison boggles my mind inasmuch as Zimbabwe made exception for it with a handloads, at the insistence of the citizenry of Zimbabwe and the Professional hunters assn... In my case I can drive a 320 gr. Woodliegh soft or solid at 2400 plus a tad...My 375 H&H drives a lighter 300 gr. bullet at 2500 which is the load I use...now why is the 9.3x62 not comparable, at least out of my 26" barrel with a handload. My 9.3 shoots 20 grs more bullet at 100 FPS less velocity, I suspect the 20 grs of bullet makes up for 100 FPS, but doubt that it makes a hill of beans one way or the other.. I certainly cannot tell the difference on Cape Buffalo and I have shot a number with each...the results are almost exact in the field....the 9.3x62 made its bones in East Africa and Namibia and still comes highly recommended by EVERY PH that I know.. In fact, you are the first person I have ever heard say a bad word about the cartridge... I suppose I will just have to respectfully and totally disagree with your with your assessment of the calibers in question, with the proviso that the 375 H&H is technically the more powerfull, but much like the .308 and 30-06, it is an insugnificant amount in the hunting fields. | |||
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| <Jhon> |
Gentlemen . I have been reading this thread with some interest. I own 2 mausers,9.3x62 9.34x64 and a cz 375. All of them do an extremely efficient job. Some years ago I read of a 9.3x72? apparently an RWS cartridge designed for the Riechsmarchall of germany, Goering. As I remember the case was similar to the 404 Jefferies.I tend to agree with others that most animals shot with any of the 9.3s or 374 fall over dead. On my last trip to Africa I got my best Kudu ever with a 270. Quite candidly it depends on the nut on the butt. Jhon | ||
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| <JOHAN> |
quote:The caliber was 9,3X70 and it's base on a 404 Jeffery case. I'm not sure if it was designed for the morphine crunshing Mr "vain" Hermann G�ring. I guess this fat pig has been trying to credit for most things Harald Wolf who publishes Hatari Times has written an article about the caliber. I still think the rifle that Harald built is for sale. It a wood take down on a mauser 98 action , the wood is very nice. Brass is avilable from Horneber. / JOHAN | ||
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| one of us |
Alfred, Tit for tat, I agree with your assessment, I only speak for the handloaded version of the 9.3x62, I have never soiled my bore with a factory round!! However I believe the 9.3x64 is a better round than either the 9.3x62 or 375 as it shoots heavier bullets at the same velocity as the 375 H&H and has better Sectional Density thus better penitration, but I'm probably nitpicking here as both are suitable for that worlds largest animals... | |||
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Here can you read about the 9.3x70 Magnum http://www.heym-waffenfabrik.de/S_Buechs/S_JZ/st_JZ.html click on Hatari Times and then guns the article about the very potent 500Jeffery is also worth reading A man in Sweden have made some wildcat 9.3:s. One is a 358NormaMagnum necked up to 9.3 called 366IH Magnum. It's a little bit more potent than the 9.3x64. The other one is a 416Rigby shortened down to 66mm and necked down to 9.3. It's called 9.3IH Express and is in the same division as the 378WbyMag [ 04-27-2003, 15:22: Message edited by: Jamt ] | |||
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Gentlemen, I am sure all of the "souped up", 9.3's are excellent cartridges....But the whole point of the 9.3x62 or the 9.3x74R is that they offer 375 H&H performance in a lighter weight, less recoil package. If you are going to increase your recoil anyway, you might as well use the H&H, as ammo is available almost anywhere big game is hunted. | |||
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