I'm kinda late into this thread, but I'd like to give a comment to the "small agent, limted choice" argument.

I run a low-profile booking agency specialized in hunts in Australia and New Zealand. We do other stuff too, but on a smaller scale. I work together with a partner in Australia, who spends a lot of time each year driving around visiting outfitters. When I still lived in Europe, I checked all the big booking agencies. There wasn't one who could offer more than one outfitter with whom to hunt water buffalo. Not one. At that time I could offer a choice of no less than seven outfitters. Ranging from a "drag you off into the swamps on a quad, and we'll see wherever we'll sleep" type of hunt, to a high-standard, got-three-types-of-icecream-
in-the-freezer, do-you-need-a-manicure, type of hunt. Arnhemland with aborginal trackers, or cattle-ranch hunt, you name it. Each one had been inspected by my partner personally, some outfitters I met myself.

So going for a small agent isn't necessarily bad. I *do* get suspicious when a small-time operator offers hunts in 35 different countries...how can he assure the quality of the hunts that he offers? I've been offered hunts by Kasachstan outfitters (as an example)that I've refused to sell, simply because at that time I did not have the means to go and check things out. I *do* have some Namibian offers, simply because we checked out the operations and had a client there.

As with outfitters, I suppose there's good and bad in agents too. Not easy to filter out the truth at all times.

Frans

Frans,

For arguments sake, I think we were refering to an agent who had one or two operations in SOuth Africa or Namibia as a small agent. What you did with 7 different operators in Australia could not reall be considered small because your Australian scope was quite large and gave a good range of price and areas/animals/hunts etc.

While you described yourself as a "low-profile" booking agency, it would seem to me that you are focused on a select number of areas, namely Australia and New Zealand. I would prefer to book with you rather than another agent who only has one operator there.

So, I would not lump you into the group we were refering to.

I do have to agree with you on another thing. I too am leary of agents who have hundreds of hunts in every corner of the globe. How in the world they can do this and hold down a regular job is beyond me!

Thanks everyone!

I'm amazed by the amount of answers in such a short time.
I've only been hunting in Africa once. I booked it myself with PH Vaughan Fulton in Namibia (been in Kenya, Tanzania and Egypt for less noble causes). I'd like to add that I had no troubles at all with Vaughan, but I now wished to know more about how the industry works. Got quite an answer here! This forum is truly a great source of information.

Having not yet made my trek to the bush, I will certainly be talking with an agent to start things off. This board has definitely educated me a great deal but there are so many details involved I want to make sure I have everything put together correctly the first time.

If more of the african outfitters were honest, there would be no need for a booking agents. unfortunately a very large segment of the african outfitters see nothing wrong with misleading a client in order to book a hunt. It is a common practice for african outfitters to advertise control of concessions and permits they have no legal right to. Only after selling a hunt do they call around and try to find a permit or ranch to hunt.
Most of the unbelievable low priced hunts never fully disclose the true reason for there discounted price. A $6000 or $7000 buffalo hunt sounds great to the average sportsmen compared to a $12.000 buffalo hunt. But is it a great deal when you arrive at the ranch and find out there are only 20 head of tame buffalo to pick from. Is it worth 15%. Sometimes you do get what you pay for.

As I said previously, agencies can be a two edged sword, but please don't think I'm against them. If an agent asks for a few brochures I'm always happy to send them along with the offer of 15% of camp fees.

As someone else posted, a problem that occurs with many outfitters is thie stupid claims to the hunting rights of zillions of acres. I don't own any hunting concessions but I do know plenty of people that do. I make no secret of not owning concessions and it's a deliberate policy. If I own somewhere then I have to make each client fit my concession. If I work the way I do then I only offer the client somewhere suitable for his needs, tastes and finances. If a client comes to me and asks for a specific species or type of hunt, I can offer him a choice of venues along with a choice of prices and an honest description and photo's of every area. I also tell him how long I've been hunting there and how successful the last few hunts have been.

I've also got to say, that I truly hate to think a client can't come on safari due simply to lack of money, and if he tells me that he has a restricted budget I'll always do my best to accommodate him. I look on it as well he may win the lottery next year and then re-book a longer hunt........... there's also the factor that I love what I do unreservedly, and without a client, I can't do it!

Agent's are fine, but as with most things in life they (as we all do) have to stick to what they know and not try to bullshit clients with incorrect or inaccurate information. An Outfitter/PH has his role in the safari industry and so does the agent. Each should stick to his own.

Wendell,
Thanks for the answer.

Asking "why book through a booking agent?" is sort of like saying "the king has no clothes". Pretty selfevident I think.

Add another middle man who takes your money and then their part is done with. Someone mmentioned phoning the agent when they couldnt meet up with their PH. Hell if you dealt direct you would actually know the PHs phone number and could speak to someone 2 miles away rather than 2 continents away!

Do you REALLY think you will ever get your dollars back from an agent. Here's a test - someone who has had AN AGENT PAY MOENY BACK TO THEM, PLEASE POST A REPLY.

And if the reaction from Wendell Reich is any example, dont ask these difficult questions.

"I think maybe your description applies more to the part-time or "garage booking agent" who hunts with a guy in South Africa once and becomes the instant expert on Africa.

There is nothing wrong with this guy, but you are right, there is not much choice, and you may not be geting the best deal or the real "skinny" on Africa.

There are thousands of one opertion, new-website, instant agents. (I am sure that this is what you were refering to.) "

"There is nothing wrong with this guy" - yet WR is calling him a "garage booking agent" and "instant experts". I guess 3 or 4 trips to Africa makes him a 3 or 4 trip instant expert!

Someone mentioned that outfitters will do almost anything and rubbish each other to get the business. What does WR do almost straight away? Rubbishes 95% of his own "profession" by calling them "garage booking agents". Competition must be getting stiff. Too many new faces on AR for WR I think .

"I do not conser them to be booking agents. They are more "representatives" for a specific operation."

What do you think the legal definition of an agent is ??????? A representative !

We have had comments from agents here saying a large amount of outfitters are not honest !! I think that applies more to the agents.

DJ "Try it sometime, make up a booking agent name,pick a clutch of outfitters, tell them you are an agent, book your hunt...minus 15%." Shhhh - your spoiling it for them - cutting out all their gravy and free hunts.

Asking questions of an agent is just like a chain relay of a message. The question is not asked the same and the answer is garbled. All they do is get on the phone, fax or email and ask the outiftter. Then try to interpret the answer to give it the best light. Or just make it up.

Originally posted by SBT:
I'm interested in learning the answer to Nitro Express'question. To you booking agents, who do you owe a fiduciary responsibility, the hunter or the safari company?

Well that answer is very easy. Who is paying them? It isn't you the outfitters client. The outfitter is paying them. Out of his sales income. If these agents were honest they would be ADDING their fees on top in plain view. HERES ANOTHER TEST OF HONESTY - HOW MANY AGENTS DECLARE THEIR CUT OF THE CAKE TO THEIR CLIENTS???? Make it the actual dollars on the invoice. Might expose the gravy and cut out the 46" free buffalo hunts.

Lets say you book a 21 day hunt at $1000 per day. Thats $21000. Now lets say the day rate is $850 per day if booked direct. Thats $17850. And IF YOU WANT YOU CAN PAY $3150 FOR AN AGENT who just collects a deposit, receives a form and makes a phone call. Easy decision id the agents fee was ON TOP OF the day rate not included

"THE KING HAS NO CLOTHES."

Asking about who the agent works for is like asking if the attorney of your supplier works for you in a business deal. NO, your suppliers attorney like the whore they are works for the supplier. Same for booking agents.

And all this rubbish about the agents sacking the outfitters. they have to be very bad before they will do this. More likely if the agent doesnt come through with no sales they get the boot, especially from the good outfitters who contrary to what is said can pick and choose between the agents not the other way round.

"THE KING HAS NO CLOTHES."

[/QUOTE]Do any travel agents disclose their sale commission?

DO TWO WRONGS MAKE A RIGHT?

Those who sell below retail are called whores.

No, they are just desperate for business, especially in Zimbabwe.

DR458,
Watch this space, the agents and their aliases are sharpening their knives !! It is most amusing .
DJ.

Oh no! DR458 has figured out my scheme! What shall I do now!

I also received a refund from a booking agent--John La Sala of African Hunting Adventures.

John is very honest and has a nice selection of hunts.

He also sells custom loads.

Interresting posts, well sorta...

My philosophy is if you can do a better job than me, then more power to you....

As to the number of hunts I do, it comes up to about 70 worldwide and thats just a guess...I do this full time...Every hunter I have sent to Africa for the last 15 or so years has come home and decided to be a booking agent, including my own children, they soon saw the error of their ways and decided it was just too complicated and required certain skills that few have...

You can book your own hunts, but I will offer this that the problems you will incur will always be after the hunt is over and do YOU have the connections, political clout, know how to solve these problems, that is the question and most wont even know what I'm talking about, so I will attempt to explain...Trying to get trophies out of Africa that, for a million reasons, can get hung up, dealing with certain Safari Companies who keep changing their names for various reason, knowing whos, who in the Safari business, and dealing with African mind set and politicians... It can test your metal I assure you of that...I just got a clients trophies out of Africa that were in effect stolen or ripped off and through the grace of a personal friend and Govt. official I got them to my client and in good shape, it took 2 years...Now with this terrorism thing, and British air only coming into Dar once a week, All the Safari companies apparently have some trophies stacked on the docks, awaiting shipment, and that has to be delt with, I assure you British Air is not particularly pro hunting....Then we have the problem of questionable Safari Companies, and some are very well know and thought off, but do you know their past record or who they are entwined with?? Trust me, its a tough go..

I guess my question is are you, as a hunter, regardless of your hunting experience in Africa capable of handling these sorts of problems, if you are then would you apply for a job with Atkinson Hunting Adventures, I have been searching for you since time began.

Just some thoughts I had on the subject..

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Atkinson:
[QB]Interresting posts, well sorta..
.....and the fuel flows freely, and their stomachs are full, and there are no problems in Zimbabwe.....

Seriously though.......how much political clout have you got, say..... in Zimbabwe ?

I have gotten money back from a booking agent for an African trip that a member of my group could not go on.

BigB

Not having been around on the NA scene very long I can't comment on the situation here, but in Europe several agent have been paying back money to clients when the provided service wasn't what was expected. In Germany, maybe a local can be more specific, if you as an agent are involved in more than just the hunt (so accommodation before or after the hunt, flights, etc.) you are going to be considered the *organiser*, and be liable for the quality of the whole circus. Almost all agents write in their conditions of sale that they are liable for a correct description of services of the outfitter (only). So if anything goes wrong there they can be brought to cough up part of your money.

I can tell you that I've had clients to whom I talked for half a day twice, on a show on two consequetive years, talked on the phone on average 30 minutes at a time, for at least 6 times, spent several hours talking to the outfitters on the scene, arranging local flights, motels, etc., arranging for vet services for the paperwork etc.

All this for a $3000,- hunt. That meant $600 for me and my partner. For two days of work on my side only. $20,- an hour. Need I be more open?

Frans

Ray and Frans,

There rally is no need in answering any of this guys "accusations". He is obviously ignorant of the industry and just looking for a fight. He doesn't know what he is talking about and he certainly doesn't know me or how I do business.

Shoot, he was attacking me directly with most of his comments. They were so foolish, they do not even warrant an answer or explination. He is possibly one of the old Trolls reincarnated.

Frans, I can not speak for you, but I think he is just jealous because Ray and I are so darn good looking.

DJ,
I have a very limited amount of clout in Zimbabwe, but I do know some fairly high officials in the game dept. and some folks that can help in the Zimbabwe Professional Hunters Assn. and enough to get some trophies out of that country that had been seized by the Govt...I suspect thats a hell of lot more than you know as an individual...

Like I said, if you can do it better, have at it or I'll give you a job.

Wendell Reich wrote:

>Frans, I can not speak for you, but I think he is >just jealous because Ray and I are so darn good >looking.

Nah, I'm ugly as sin! And short too.

'nough said on the topic, I suppose.

Frans

Dr. 458,
If you had been around here a year or so ago you would know that I sold 2 group hunts to folks on Acc. Loading and Hunt Amer., a total of 8 hunts and then Zambia closed, I and the great Safari company I represented refunded every cent to each one of them and I have done that on more than several ocassions over the years, even though the contract said no refunds under any conditions....If the client has a legitamate beef, most of us will make our decisions on a case by case circumstance and we have to live with that decision..

I postponed 2 hunts this year because of illness and set them up for the same dates next year...I refunded another poster on AR due to sickness, who BTW sent me a beautifull hand made fly rod in thanks for the way I handled it..I appreciated that.

I paid off $50,000 in deposits one year because an outfitter in the states ran out from under me with the deposits...I paid the clients back out of MY pocket and also re-booked the ones that wanted to hunt the following year and I did not charge them a commission because of the problems I had inadvertently put them through...I hunted that outfitter bastard down and got my money back...but ate the deposits of the following year, and the expense of finding him.

What I'm saying is I don't have to take your crap, mister, whatever it takes I will do the right thing and always have, and when some no nothing bull shitter like you comes down on me, I have every right to get indignant and I am.....

No one is required to use our services, that is strictly up to you, but there is no need to flame us for our profession unless you got a case...Sometimes things happen beyond our control, we will do our damnest to correct these situations and sometimes we cannot, were no infallible, so be it, I make no excuses, and I will take no flame sitting down, it's just not my nature.

Would I use a booking agent? Hell Yes!! I did it two years ago on my first trip to Zimbabwe. Would I do it again, HELL YES!!! And, I am doing it again next May. I really don't care what percentage an agent makes, they have families to feed too! As long as the price of the hunt is attractive to me, I could care less what they have worked out with the safari company! The ten, fifteen or whatever percent they make, is squat, compared to the all out rip-offs that are going on with North American hunting right now!! My safari was flawless! However, it gave me great comfort to know that if the hunt "went wrong", I had an agent to bitch at who was one state away!! Also, they held all of my money right here in the USA untill my hunt was completed and I "signed off" on it. That is worth 10-20% to me!! If you want to cut out the agent, then go for it. Just don't come back here pissing and moaning that you've been screwed!!

BOWHUNR

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Atkinson:
Mr Atkinson,
I was wondering how long it would take before you came blustering into this thread !
Truth is, when you are wound up, you come out with some very useful stuff.(Some time ago you posted up, in a fit of temper, information about areas, times and relevant movement of buffalo trophies in Tanzania. This information, following some considerable research by a few folks, proved to be absolutely spot on).You should really lay off personal attacks, as it sort of lets you down a bit.
Re Zimbabwe, no, I would not use an agent, but I do plan a trip to Tanzania, and I will be booking through you, just hope you don't work out my ID!
DJ.

DJ- I was hoping you would book through me!

I couple of you have written and asked me if I was going to put my 2 cents worth in or not on this?

So 2 cents worth you shall get.

Having been to Africa surely as many times or more than most of the posters here, I can say I have done it both ways.

Over the past 10 years or so, I have not used an Agent, only because, I am hunting only in Zimbabwe, RSA, and Namibia for Plains game.

But having, "Been there and done that", I know what I am doing and where I am going.
Also having hunted with the same people a couple times, I know them and they know me.

BUT, were I to book a hunt to Russia, Tanzania, Zambia, or some other place I have not been before, I would certainly book with an agent.

If you want another 2 or 3 cents worth, write me me at tblauwkamp@superior-sales.com , and I'll tell you more.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:
DJ- I was hoping you would book through me! [/QUOTE
I thought RSA,Namibia and Zimbabwe were your forte.....
DJ.

DJ DJ DJ !!!!

I have Tanzania, Botswana, Zambia, Mozambique too!

Gee thanks Anne!! I'll forward my client inventory this week

DJ,
Now you went and done it, I don't know where to go with that one!!

Actually I don't get my dander up nearly as easy as it sounds but when one stirs the pot a bit on AR, it sometimes sells some hunts! Oh well there goes another secret the youngsters didn't know about, I gradually give away all my trade secrets on this forum.

In your case I will be compelled to get you a 44" bull or I shall no doubt be slayed in the pages of AR history for non compliance

Ray- I don't know when the beginning of time was, but I am dusting off my extensive resume for your reveiw!