I would like some advice. I have a Legend rifle in 7mm Mag and would like to use only one bullet. I am going to Africa in September to hunt Kudu, Oryx & Leopard. In October, I will use the rifle to hunt longrange Mule Deer, In November I will hunt elk and finally, in January will hunting longrange Coues Deer in Mexico. I had good success with the Triple Shock in a 375 on Buffalo in Tanzania, but am concerned that the Triple Shock won't open enough for Leopard at close range and Coes Deer at long range, etc. After that long winded soliquey (sp?), I am trying to decide if I would use 140 or 160 grain bullets. (Is there really a long range advantage to the 140 grain?) and am considered Triple Shocks, Accubond and my old favorite Nosler Partitions. If anybody had advice on this issue it would be greatly appreciated.

SC,

If you are set using the big bullets use them..
You will resight for the Leopard and take 10 or so for the sight in and leopard kill shot..Use high velocity to shock Mr. Spots..

Good luck,

Mike

retreever: Thanks for the advice. If I understand you correctly, you are telling me that I'm probably going to have to resight in for a closer range for the Leopard, so if I do this, I might as well have a lighter and faster expanding bullet, thus another bullet. Someone else told me the same thing. I guess it raises another issue, if I hunt Kudu in the day and Leopard in blind at night, changing the sighting would become rather tedious. This probably a good excuse to get another gun, one that is just perfect for leopard and take two guns. What would be the ideal caliber for Leopard? Thanks

Mr. Cat

This or similiar topics concerning leopard bullets comes up pretty often. Personally I think there is only one simple answer and that would be to 160 or even the 175 NP. It should do it all with explosive expansion for your leopard and through and through penetration for your other animals. Do yourself a favor and don't bring some special leopard load because it is completely unecessary. I'm not a coues hunter but it would seem you'd want the 140 gr if they shoot in your gun for that application.

Mark

Since you like the 7mm go to the 280 or go this way 338 for other animals and 7 MM for spots..

Or just check at range sight in the 160's and them set up at 40, 50, 60 yds and see where your 140 hits and if it is around an inch I would not worry there will be alot of destruction going on upon impact...

Mike

If it were me, I would work up an accurate load @ around 2,950 fps with 160 Grain Nosler Partitions and leave all the rest at home.
I know guys who've used them on everything from Impala to Eland with marked success. Whenever a client asks me if his 7 MM Mag is okay for Mt. Nyala I tell him to either handload that bullet or buy the Federal Premiums in that load.
Rich Elliott

quote:

Originally posted by Schrodinger's Cat:
I would like some advice. I have a Legend rifle in 7mm Mag and would like to use only one bullet. I am going to Africa in September to hunt Kudu, Oryx & Leopard. In October, I will use the rifle to hunt longrange Mule Deer, In November I will hunt elk and finally, in January will hunting longrange Coues Deer in Mexico. I had good success with the Triple Shock in a 375 on Buffalo in Tanzania, but am concerned that the Triple Shock won't open enough for Leopard at close range and Coes Deer at long range, etc. After that long winded soliquey (sp?), I am trying to decide if I would use 140 or 160 grain bullets. (Is there really a long range advantage to the 140 grain?) and am considered Triple Shocks, Accubond and my old favorite Nosler Partitions. If anybody had advice on this issue it would be greatly appreciated.

The proper question is: Is there any ballistic or terminal performance to using the 160gr instead of the 140gr.

And frankly with Barnes TSX that is an emphatic no.

POSSIBLY at very long range a 160gr partition
may penetrate more...

going from a 140gr bullet to a 160gr bullet takes a 7mmRemMag from being a 3200fps cartridge into being a 2900fps cartridge.

And at longer ranges I'd suspect that expansion will be more reliable, afterall on either X-bullet the nose cavity is the same, the difference is the bullet shank behind it.

So if you are worried about opening up?
I think that faster is better in either
case of the "deer" at long range or
leopard up close. but especially so with TSX bullets.

at high impact speeds X-bullets are prone to shedding their pedals, but being fairly sharp in and of themselves they make lethal wound channels. on a cat I think I'd almost prefer a
delayed blow up of the bullet to reduce the tendency to make a big exit hole in the part you want to keep... that pretty hide.



AllanD

Some great advice from people who obviously understand the issue. AllanD, I tend to agree with your analysis: 140 grain Triple Shock with greater velocity, but the 160 grain NP you can't fault either. Maybe, I am making much ado about nothing. But one final question and although I have hunted elk quite a bit with the 160 NP, I have never used the Triple Shock on them. My final question is thus: If I would go with the 140 Triple Shock in the 7 Mag, do I have a good elk and Kudu round. Thanks so much for all of your assistance.

S. Cat- IMO, you can't beat the TSX. Last year I used 180 gr TSX in my '06 and hammered Burchell's Zebra, Cape Eland, Black Wildebeest, Black Backed Jackal and here at home, a nice Mulie.

Of those animals only one TSX was recovered and that was in the Eland. The bullet hit the spinal column in the neck. The bullet was found backwords (shank first) penetrating the offside skin. A picture perfect mushroom.

I have also noticed that copper fouling is WAY less than NP and others.

I love the TSX!!!

John

If you prefer a Nosler-Partition over a TSX, use the N-P
but again the 140 is a better choice.

Each cartridge has one weight bullet it propels better than any other weight, in the 7mmRemMag it is my opinion that
it is best with 140gr bullets.

and on the same vein...
308Win is best with 150gr
30-06 best with 165gr

I still wonder why people with 223's constantly try to use bullets heavier than 50-55gr that are better suited to bigger cartridges.

When is a slower heavier bullet better than a smaller fast bullet?

before you answer that presume that both bullets are
loaded to their maximum performance in the given rifle
and that both bullets are optimized for the anticipated impact speed and animal they will be used on.


There are poeple here who are going to jump in and try to claim out one side of their mouth that shot placement is everything and from the other side of their mouth will be
the claim that a heavy bullet penetrating deeper will cover up "other sins"

and I'll comment that with either a partition or TSX it is unusual to not have an exit hole.

Others will cry out "Residual energy" and my question to them is if the bullet exits how much energy was spent PAST the animal?

Hell the one Deer I've shot past 400yards was with a 25-06
and a 100gr Nosler and the bullet did indeed exit and it wasn't a "classic broadside shot" either, the deer was quartering towards me and that little bullet with a 3300MV
at a figured impact speed of 2300fps punched right through...

I will add that the TSX probably has a slightly better BC because of it's greater length and boat tail, but the difference isn't something I'm going to recommend you worry about...

AllanD

quote:

Originally posted by Schrodinger's Cat:
I would like some advice. I have a Legend rifle in 7mm Mag and would like to use only one bullet. I am going to Africa in September to hunt Kudu, Oryx & Leopard. In October, I will use the rifle to hunt longrange Mule Deer, In November I will hunt elk and finally, in January will hunting longrange Coues Deer in Mexico. I had good success with the Triple Shock in a 375 on Buffalo in Tanzania, but am concerned that the Triple Shock won't open enough for Leopard at close range and Coes Deer at long range, etc. After that long winded soliquey (sp?), I am trying to decide if I would use 140 or 160 grain bullets. (Is there really a long range advantage to the 140 grain?) and am considered Triple Shocks, Accubond and my old favorite Nosler Partitions. If anybody had advice on this issue it would be greatly appreciated.

IMO, you will not do better, in a 7mm Rem Mag than a 160 gr Nosler Partition, for all the species you list, including leopard. That bullet will open on the leopard, at close range, but will retain a chunk of it's weight for penitration. Addtionally it will give you good results on the Kudu, and Gemsbok, way out there over the sand!

I use that bullet with 61.5 grs of IMR 4831 for about 2980 fps. Sighted in 2 1/4" high at 100 yds, it will be dead on at 225 yds, and only 1" high at 50 yds, with a 300 yds drop of only about 5 1/2". With this load, and zeroing, your point blank range is hold dead on to 350 yds for the larger of the three you are going after, and out to 300 on leopard. Your leopard will likely be no more that 50 yds if over bait, and less if in front of dogs!

GOOD LUCK, and good shooting!

Use a NP for the spotted cat. I have only shot one leopard but the NP worked fine. I went heavy using 200 gr bullets in my 300 winmag. It was slower than lots of loads but, it was a very accurate load in my rifle. Putting that bullet in exactly the right place is more important than the bullet itself. That said, the Np has a great combination of expansion and penetration. The front end opens readily and in fact splatters at high velocity, then the back half goes through just as if it was a solid. Nothing wrong with carrying two loads. There is something reassuring about shooting that rifle just before you go to the stand, at exactly the range your stand is from the bait, and having it land exactly where you want. One box of shells is enough for your leopard hunt. You will only get one, two or at most three shots before you get him or he gets you. That first shot is the most important thing. Hit him good or do not shoot. 140 or 160 will not matter much if you put it into the heart lung or spine area. My PH said break his back. You can kill him at will later. Your heart will pound quite nicely when Mr. Spots makes his apearance. Leopard have a way of doing that. Have a nice hunt and don't forget to post the story and pics. "D"

I'd think any of the bullets mentioned will work but a 140gr @ 3200fps is very likely to do quite a bit of damage to that leopard's hide...something I wouldn't like at all!
If it were me doing it, the bullet would be a 160gr, whichever one shoots best in the rifle. The NPs work great and I've used them on leopard, they won't hurt you a bit on the other game either.

John's right. I'd go to a heavier bullet.

You're going to be very close to the bait. You'll want a bullet that will both hold together and yet still offer controlled expansion.

I like a-frames and partitions. I'm sure other will work as well. I kinda try and stick with what works and not experiment too much, so can't really coment about other bullets.

I shot my leopard with a 180 gn a-frame 30-06. Fell over deader than a door nail. I've used that same load for all sorts of stuff.

-Steve

Thank all of you for your valuable advice.

Anybody ever look at the North Fork bullets for the 7MM?

I sure would like to know how they work. Mike tells me his 7MM and 6.5MM bullets are well-liked in Europe.

I'm looking into using a 284 (or maybe necking it down down to a 6.5 mm) on my next light rifle.

I edited to add: My brother John uses the 160 NP on deer and elk with great success.

NF softs work great on game anywhere you can hunt. We've used them on elk and deer and a friend used them in his 300mag and 450 Dakota on his Tanzania safari in '04. They're great bullets for leopard and lion, and in the 450 they literally knocked two buffalo off their feet...stone dead. Can't ask for much better results. EXTREMELY accurate too.

John,

Any of those hunters using a 6.5 or 7MM?

I'm already a NF believer for the bigger bores.

Don,
Sorry, but none in those calibers. Deer and elk were 30cal, using 180grs. My friend used 200grs in 300mag for the safari. For a 7mm I think a person would be hard pressed to beat Mike's 160gr soft point for general hunting.

SC

I use 140 gr TSX's in my 7mm and they opened fine on mountain lion which is quite similar to a leopard for body type. I think its more important to have proper shot placement than bullet type with todays high quality bullets. I would rather use what shoots acurately in a gun than get hung up with weight of bullet, but thats just my opinion, FWIW.


As for Leopard and TSX's, my Leopard was shot at @ 12 ft with a 416 Rigby ( only used the Rigby because it had a good low light scope on top and the open sights were not good for low light) with a TSX and we could see the X pattern on the off side skin. Leopard only ran about 20 ft and expired.

Canuck 32

Canuck 32,

Did you get any copper fouling out of the TSXs?

I am biased against Barnes bullets solely because they have cost me hours of my life mining copper from my barrels!

Don,
I've been using the TSXs for about two years now in all of my rifles and have not seen anywhere near the copper fouling the older Xs gave me. They are a great shooting bullet too, extremely accurate and fast.
If you haven't tried it, get some Wipe Out foaming bore cleaner and you won't worry about copper fouling any longer.

Thanks, John.

"Nowhere near the older X's" leaves a lot of territory!

I'll stick with the North Forks.

If you were asking how they compare to the NF specifically, my answer is much the same or less, in many cases. In my guns they are typically a bit more accurate as well, although the NFs are very good and certainly better than most bullets I've used. Biggest difference is how they react in game. I favor one or the other, depending upon what I'm hunting and what I want the bullet to do.

I'll throw in with John's comments regarding the TSXs. Although I have not taken any game with it yet, they are the most consistently accurate bullets I've ever dealt with and fouling is not an issue. Hell, I think my Swifts leave more copper behind, at least in my 416 Rigby anyway. I've also tried the NF Cup points and they were indeed accirate. But at first blush, they seem to be neither fish nor fowl. I think their softpoints, if you are so inclined, is the way to go. And lastly, a minor point, the TSXs are great value for the money. The 416s are qbout fifteen bucks a box cheaper than the A Frames. I LOVE the A Frames, but TSXs-so far- definetly have my attention. jorge

From my experience the worst of the copper fouling is always at the muzzle.

that being said it has never taken me more than five wet patches with Bore-Tech copper cleaner (less agressive than Barnes CR-10) alternated with dry patches to remove all visible traces of copper on the lands at the muzzle.

Yes, on some barrels there is a copper build up after many (80 or so) shots, but in general I find pure copper easier to remove than guilding metal fouling build up in the same barrels.

I'm one of the few people who actually liked the Barnes XLC's. I had at one point three different loads with their
165gr 30cal XLC-BT that would top out at 3100fps from
one particular 24" barrel and one if those three loads was even faster... (I was playing "How much RL22 can be compressed in there" games)

160gr bullets in the 7mmRemMag?
I just don't see the point of buying a 7mmMag.
and in essence turning a 7mmMag into a louder,
more expensive 30-06 by loading 160gr bullets
into it.

And I really don't understand how people can kid themselves that my characterizing their actions
that way isn't the simple unvarnished truth.

If you really wanna quibble Nosler does allow you to split the difference between a 140gr and a 160gr partition... they also make a 150gr partition.....

AllanD

Don,
The TSX's seem to have solved the copper fouling problem in my loading expreiments. The guns in which I have switched to TSX's from X bullets are no harder to clean that conventional jacket bullets (hornady etc.), and I have seen an improvment in groupings when compared to X bullets. The 7 mm was probably the hardest gun I have had to get a loading that shot accuratly with X bullets. With TSX's I had a few differnt powder brands that were of 1/2 MOA accuracy.
I just wish we could get a better supply of them up here in the bigger calibers . Above 338 the supply gets pretty limited. If I am in any gun store and see anything above 338, I buy all they have, Just in case.