Has anyone ever had the actual need for the additional cartridge capacity provided by the CZ? Specifically, in a larger caliber rifle while hunting "dangerous game".

It sounds comforting, although it would seem that in almost all conceivable situations the hunter would have the time and opportunity to reload, or have other things to do rather then shoot (such as run...). When walking, do you find yourselves filling up the magazine?

I'm still tossing around the various .458 Lott options (CZ-based vs Ruger), and any opinions are appreciated.

Regards,

Bill

Bill,



I would think the extra round would come into play when the dangerous game is running away from you (not when it is charging). The more rounds you get into him as he is leaving, hopefully, will mean there will be fewer rounds needed when you meet again.



I've emptied a 5 round magazine twice. Once on a Nyasa wildebeest who started out at 250 yards and ended up at a little over 400 yards when the last .375 caught him (with a couple of misses in between). The second time was at a buffalo who gave me plenty of time as he went up a hill (again a couple of missed shots in the middle).



Regards,



Terry



P.S.

Have you seen those CZ American Safari rifles that are supposed to hit the stores this month?

This summer, with a CZ .375 that holds 5 down, I shot a Selous buffalo 6 times before it fell. The first two were X bullets that penetrated the heart lung area (maybe broke a shoulder) and the rest were solids. Two were not good shots, the fourth shot going above the bones in the neck (a solid) and the fifth ranging through the guts and hitting only the far lung, then exiting (a solid). The sixth was aimed just to the right of the anus and broke the spine (the buff was pretty much wobbling away at this point). I then shot the buff twice more on the ground with solids.



Why did I shoot the buffalo so many time... it's like the Dog Joke... because I could. He was in sight, spinning around, backing up, trotting away... just not going down. I did it because I didn't want him wounded in the high grass. The finishing rounds after he was down came about as we approached. He turned his head to us.. one between the shoulders.. and when the PH touched his eye.. he tried to raise his head again and I hit him again, finally doing him in... tough bugger was he.



While this particular buff never posed a threat since he was broadside or going away from me on every shot, I'd have been s.o.l. if he had come towards me, and me with a lesser magazine after, say, the third shot??? More is better, IMHO.

Bill,

I really do not think that many down really makes a difference..The Ruger in 458 Lott will take 3 in the mag and 1 chambered...I do not think on a charge you will get off more then 3 and the third will be up close personal and I hope the Lott does the crushing at that range...500grs of stomping power...
I also agree with Terry and the judge..the extras are for going away....
Quoting my Ph., " you get three shots... at 20 yds I open up..."
Like the lion video long shots on a charge do no good if missed....

Mike
Wyoming, Pa.

Was in Botswana 1988 with a Sako Safari .375, held five in the box and one in the chamber, had to shoot a buffalo four times as he kept getting up again, it was comforting to know that I still had two in reserve at the end. All the hits were killing shots too.

Vigillinus..
Just a comment he was smashed real bad by your shots...Even though he was getting up you still had the time to hit him again and again...If the proverbial sh-- hit the fan your Ph was there for more fire power and to shoot for effect...
Also, good shooting it is the first one that does the damage..

Mike

Yes. Just last summer with my custom CZ in .458 Lott, which holds five down.

I put five in a cape buffalo and six in a hippo. The first heart shot would have killed both of them eventually . . . but eventually can take a while, sometimes too long for the circumstances at hand.

In the case of my buff and hippo, I put the extras in and through the engine room of each animal as they were rambling (maybe rumbling is a better word) at the double towards a nearby shallow river with high brush on the other side.

Neither animal was a threat to charge--I just didn't want the crew to have to drag them out of or across the water. They both made it into the river anyway, in spite of my best efforts to stop them short.

As far as magazine capacity is concerned, more is always better. No one will ever be able to convince me otherwise.

Of course, with bigger rounds (Gibbs, big Weatherbys, etc.), there's a trade-off of more power for slightly less capacity. But, even with the great big sewer pipe diameter cartridges, I'd want three down minimum.

The only reason to stop shooting at a dangerous game animal is (a) it's run off or it's down and obviously dead or (2) you've run out of ammunition and are busy reloading. And it's better to keep the need for reloading to a minimum.

Thanks guys for the opinions and relaying your experiences. I guess with the last few hunts I've been on in the Caprivi where we were bumping into ele all the time, I have been thinking more of self preservation rather then getting in extra shots, but it makes sense.



One/another advantage that I thought of is when carrying or transporting the rifle in the truck where one typically won't have one chambered. When you need to get out in a hurry, if you just chamber a round you would still have 1+4 (versus 1+2).



Thanks again, Bill



Terry - I've been holding off waiting for them to become available, but I understand demand may outstrip supply.

But, instead of spraying or just hitting looking for more exact shooting...Trying for a hip shot or to spine him... Remember Ph only has 2 shots and 2 between his fingers!!!
What I am saying is to have anatomical knowledge and after the first lethal hit shoot for bones to break him down... IMO

Mike

Hey Mike, I don't think anybody will argue with your comments. A going-away spine or hip shot is certainly the goal.

On a somewhat related thought, on my first buffalo hunt, I asked my PH Cliff Walker how many shots the typical buffalo required, and his straight-faced reply was 7-8. I asked the other PH in camp separately and he said the same thing. Now this obviously does not speak well of their previous clients...

Bill,

I know an animal can get up a pile of steam..But I have always used accurate shooting and a ton of practice before committing myself to a hunt...In that lion video the guy shot that damn lion and let it flop around instead of putting a second shot in it...Adrenelin overload and we all saw what happened...Believe me I look back at all prior hunters and they all shot doubles and did not have that extra 4 shots just two in the gun and 2 between fingers...I probably have read three or four dozen books on Africa...In the past how about when only single shot rifles were available ...It was accuracy and not multiple hits...
I am of the old school aim small miss small...

Mike

Well, I admit that I have been wrong about this and I have now been shown and seen the light.

I am now firmly convinced that three in the magazine are better than five. And two are certainly better than three. And a single shot with that one in the chamber is definitely better than any repeater ever made. I am quite ashamed at all of the ammunition I have wasted achieving multiple hits in the vitals on dangerous game animals.

Anybody want to buy some nice (but clearly over-capacity) magazine rifles? Send me an email and I'll deal.

Do you have any left handed?

I know it is totally out of context with the intent of this article, but a couple of weeks ago on the Discovery channel there was a special on Elephant in Kenya. About a lady biologist that had done years of work with Elephant in Kenya, but lost her job due to the funds for her program being shut off.

Showed about 20 seconds of culling work by a flock of control shooters.

There were a couple of heavy bolt action rifles, but most gents were carrying FN 49's with 20 round mags. I guess they were shooting some type of military FMJ or maybe custom loaded solids with a less pointy bullets. Probably 308 Win.

Anyway, the shooter in front of the camera was putting two or three shots into the heads of the elephants. Then he would run up to a dropped elephant, jump on the back, and shoot another. Very fast action, good sized herd, the intent was to kill all. They were pretty successful, elephants dropping all over the place. The elephants were not running, just milling around and very confused, so the shooting was pretty easy if you had the balls to run up to the herd and start blasting. They were shooting everything, small calves also. And, the shooter in front of the camera had a vest on with several extra magazines.

This IMHO is what the closure of hunting in Kenya and the rapid human population explosion has led to.

You're right, it has nothing to do with it!

It never ceases to amaze me that there is such a total disregard for magazine capacity. Some kid just asked me about a 300 WSM for his first Safari. It was all I could do to keep from smacking him.

When you have hunted dangerous dangerous game, come tell me again that magazine capacity doesn't matter.

I like the extra capacity a bunch and have had need for it on many ocassions, I hate to be reloading when I oughta be shooting....It happens all the time...

My idea of a neat big bore would be a CZ in 10.75x68 as it would hold around 9 shots with one in the hole..

That little round sends a 350 BX, Swift, Woodleigh or a 350 gr. FN solid from Bridger at 2375 FPS out the tube in a 8.5 lb. rifle, now thats a Buffalo, Lion or Elephant gun in a very small package, that does not tear your head off and if you want a 400 gr. bullet at 2200, then it will do that too...and now Horneber makes brass and Huntington sells it....Maybe I will make one on one of my FNs...

If the bean counters at the arms companies knew anything at all, which the don't, they would have jumped on this little overlooked number many years ago and set the arms business on its ear...it would sell.....

I owned one once and thats how I stumbled on its virtues, My only problem was Bertram brass, it lasted two loadings sometimes with any load....It is the one most ignored round in history and it has all the virtues that we seek in a standard length action...think about it a 06 size case except longer that will do it all...that in itself is outstanding.

As a side note if one wanted to stick it in a M-95 lever action, I'm betting it would work...Bwana Cotter here we come.