I've got a BRNO ZG 47 in 30-06 that has a single shallow V rear sight with a standard gold bead foresight.

I find I can shoot it pretty well - well enough I'm not planning a back up scope for an upcoming foreign hunt for Kudu sized animals (mooose actualy)

But what is the best technique for mounting an iron sighted rifle? The rifle fits me pretty well but I can't shoulder it looking at the game and find the bead smack on in the V.

Also does the trajectory drop off more rapidly by virtue of the sighting plane being closer to the axis of the bore?

Well its kind of a tricky little deal I believe.
This is why a low powered scope is actually faster for a lot of people.
In my opionion though there are two basic ways to see your open sights, and that is to look at them, or to look through them.
If I am attempting a longer range shot at a standing animal where I want utmost precision out of my irons I actually shift my focus a time or two between the front bead and the animal to make sure that everything is right.
So it would be first on the animal and the bead is in my secondary vision.
Then when I know that it is on my animal I focus on the front bead and the rear sight is in my secondary.
Then when those are lined up I again focus on the animal and if everything looks good I touch it off.
Takes about 2 seconds usually for the shift of focus and fine tuning of the sights in my eye onto the target.

Now if I am rushed at close range or something is moving it is an entirely different story.
In those cases I focus completely on the animal and both front and rear sight goes into my secondary vision or focus.
This is why the big visible beads are preferred for sticky work.
They are easily picked up in your secondary and any fine tuning of the sights from then on is done basically instinctively from many thousands of times of practice tossing your rifle to your shoulder at a fly on the wall..
Or the mount over the mantle..

They will never be perfect when you first toss it up, even after a million practices. But they will be so close it will take almsot nothing to shape things up for a longer less rushed shot, and they will be close enough to put it where you need it on the tough situations.
Think of it almost like a shotgun bead in close, but with just a bit more precision, and for longer shots where you have the time, well it will never be perfect but after you have practiced a few thousand times more it will be as natural as farting in your sleep.

I learned it out here in the west shooting running jackrabbits as a kid with both open sights and dim little low powered scopes.
Anything that you can do to imitate that kind of practice is invaluable.
Good luck, and in open sights remember it is not about absolute precision or you would be shooting through glass would you not?
Instead it is about simply getting a bullet in the kill zone you are aiming at.
Behind the front leg don't worry about "hitting the hair" pull it right there tight in close and a little above the elbow and when you get that funny feeling pull the trigger.
It will be close enough.

Oh, and to answer your other question, yes it will but if you are wanting to shoot irons then it won't be enough to worry about at the ranges you will be shooting.
Besides you need to just go out and burn a lot of ammo figuring out where it is going to hit, and go with that.
Cuz like PopEye likes to say " I yam what i yam"
An what you will be taking is what it is.
So it really don't matter.

As far as mounting your gun, well just the same way you always have.
Just remember that on charges or rushed shots to shove your muzzle at the game and then back to your shoulder to keep from hanging your armpit.
Sometimes you only get one shot at doing it right, so practice until that is just who you are.

Having shot iron sights most of my life, I am not sure if there is a "technique". I believe I just put the bead on the shoulder and give the trigger a controlled yank! I am looking at the animal when I mount the gun and the sights come to the POI automatically I think or so it seems. Not an easy question for me to answer surprisingly enough...

Apparantly your shooting your gun well, so I'd say you have it down pretty good, don't change anything.

quote:

Originally posted by 1894mk2:
But what is the best technique for mounting an iron sighted rifle? The rifle fits me pretty well but I can't shoulder it looking at the game and find the bead smack on in the V.

Also does the trajectory drop off more rapidly by virtue of the sighting plane being closer to the axis of the bore?

Comb height, stock pitch and cast (off if you're right handed) must be absolutely right for the sights to line up automatically when you mount the rifle. That usually requires bespoke fitting.

But I have never found the irons on any rifle to be far off for me when I mount the rifle. I always look at the target first, then make sure the sights are aligned. I have found that any adjustment of head position can be accomplished pretty quickly. Quick enough anyway.

As for trajectory, you won't be shooting at long range, will you? I find that 100-125 yards is about my limit with irons, and I'm better off keeping shots closer than that. Trajectory is flat at those ranges.

Like mrLexma, I found out many moons ago that the human body can adjust to about any rifle pretty darn quick if your a practiced shooter....I can shoot about any gun with scope or irons as long as the comb doesn't wack me in the face...I can't take much of that.

All my DG rifles are set up for irons and have scope bases if I need a scope for some reason.

I have one rifle that fits me like a shotgun, bring the comb up to touch your cheek first then pull it back into your shoulder. The irons are then dead on. Even though the scope is a little high this works really well with the irons as it's the same fit as my trap shotgun.

Getting a rifle to mount so that the sights are aligned and are in a line with your eyes looking at a target requires some fitting of the rifle or good luck. If it is close, you may be able to adjust length of pull by changing the recoil pad. Cast on or off is more difficult to alter on a stock.

Regarding trajectory; your question is a good one and it perplexed me. I took a common loading for my 30-06, fed it into my ballistic program with line of sight adjust for 1.5" and .5" above the bore. I was surprised to find that the difference is between muzzle and 150yds, from there out, it dropped almost on the same trajectory as the scoped rifle. Let me explain: At 50, 100, and 150 yards, the unscoped rifle's bullet is about .5" above the scoped rifle's bullet. From 200 yds to 300 yds they are together. Kudude

Repetition, repetition, repetition
One of the old time PH's said something about your rifle should be one you feel comfortable with and you shouldn't think twice about just getting it out and blasting a object on the side on an anthill.

He was advocating "plinking" or informally shooting at a 3-D object at a random range. We use the same technique at my Department range with our duty weapons on steel targets that give instant feedback of a hit or miss.

IMHO The better the rifle fits you, the shorter the learning curve. But if you can find a place to shoot from field postions at a hanging gong or plink at informal targets you'll pretty quickly find that your rifle has taught you how to shoot.

HTH

1894

Mount a ghost ring receiver sight and forget about all the rest. The ghost ring is a far superior sight to the any other open sight plus it will fix about any issue with stock fit as far as sight alignment goes.

Mark

For whatever it is worth I use open sights for elephant and find that when I shoulder the rifle the front bead is a bit high and too small: am planning to have a larger bead fitted before next year; at the ranges I shoot-8-40yds bullet path does not seem to be a problem.

If the rifle fits and the sights naturally align as you say, why are you asking? I'm not trying to be a smart ass just don't understand why you'd want to tinker with perfection!

The worst mistake a shotgunner can make is trying to fit himself to the gun. The gun should fit the shooter and when it does, pointing and HITTING is as natural as pointing your finger at something. Sounds like your rifle "fits" you in this way. Enjoy it and don't worry about technigue!

quote:

I find I can shoot it pretty well - well enough I'm not planning a back up scope for an upcoming foreign hunt for Kudu sized animals (mooose actualy)

I haven't been to Africa yet; are kudu really as big as moose?

I'm with a previous poster, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE and that means burning a lot of ammunition of one sort or another.

Kudu are not as big as moose.

This is a question which probably needs more attention than we give it. I never used to concern myself with how my Africa rifle (.416 Rem) shoulders and shoots with iron sights. For years I dismissed the need for iron sights and opted to just be comfortable with the low power scope. All that changed rapidly when I hunted elephant. Hunting elephant with my scope was a disaster. That kind of hunting is unpredictable, it's close range and in dense foliage. You have to aim upward to shoot, and you had better not hesitate based on indecision because you can't tell what part of the animal's anatomy your scope is displaying. For the first time I began to take notice of what was under my quick-detach scope. For the first time I began to get to know my gun.

As it happens I lucked out. I discovered that this gun points and shoots fast and accurately over iron sights. I discovered that I have a large white bead on the front post. I experienced amazement that this gun will absolutely hit and destroy anything I aim it at when using iron sights. With his new revelation the next time I went to Africa I went with confidence. I no longer had any hesitation about yanking the scope off on the spur of the moment. Elephant hunting suddenly got a lot safer.

As you see, I had ignored my gun's potential for years. Since then I have paid more attention to guns I see in gun shops. I now shoulder them and realize that there is absolutely no way anybody is going to be capable of using the iron sights. The angle on the stock is wrong. These guns were made to look pretty but are not useful unless a scope is attached. Every time I discover another rifle like that I point out the problem to others and think about my good fortune to have blundered onto a good one at home.

My advice is don't be like me and discover your gun ten or twenty years down the road. Be critical when you are looking at a gun. Eventually you will realize right away if the sights on a rifle don't line up. So here's a suggestion: instead of trying to shoulder the gun, line up the front and rear sights with your eyes. When you are all lined up now ask yourself where the gun is. If the gun is sitting comfortably in your hands and on your shoulder, then you've got a good one. If the stock is in front of your shoulder or above or below your shoulder, then pass that gun by. It's clearly not configured right for you and your head and your neck.

Lots of folks would discover that standard iron sights are more accurate than most folks give them credit for, either a shallow V or a Ghost peep works well for me and up to 200 yards irons are very capable with just a little practice...On larger animals you can even extend that range depending on your capabilities.

Scopes are a fine sighting device and yes I use them a lot, but I am still perfectly comfortable with irons, in fact I prefer them for most hunting..I still like to do my hunting before I shoot and a good stalk is pretty rewarding in my books.

One technique that works well for deliberate work offhand, is to start low and raise the rifle until you reach the desired vital point, then fire. This is better than wobbling around and trying to time the pull, which is what happens if you try to keep the sights steady. Somehow, the motion of raising the rifle is a steadier path. Of course, for snap work, you don't have time for this.

Thanks everyone, I must admit I'm pretty happy.

I looked at my technique which is to look at the target, raise the rifle still looking at the target, look down the sights which are thereabouts, make a small adjustment and shoot.

Shot a 0.9" group off the bench to verify zero. Never realised I could be that accurate with them. It's 4" low so I'll be getting a lower foresight made. Anyone know the formula for determining how much lower?

quote:

Originally posted by Bryan Chick:
For whatever it is worth I use open sights for elephant and find that when I shoulder the rifle the front bead is a bit high and too small: am planning to have a larger bead fitted before next year; at the ranges I shoot-8-40yds bullet path does not seem to be a problem.

Bryan,

What type and size of front bead are you going to use for elephant hunting?



.

Not Bryan but I like a 3/32 Ivory bead with a shallow V rear sight, or the NECG gold faced partridge with a peep sight for elephant, buffalo, Lion or whatever.

quote:

Originally posted by 1894mk2:
... It's 4" low so I'll be getting a lower foresight made. Anyone know the formula for determining how much lower?

Gotta know your sight radius (distance between rear blade and front bead) and the range at which you are 4" low.

Then it is some simple arithmetic/algebra to calculate the change needed (similar triangles)... or look it up in a table like in Brownell's catalog.

For instance:
Sight radius 18" (1/2 yard)
Target distance 100 yards
POI 4" low

The front sight must be 4"/200 lower = .020" lower, to raise POI 4 inches.

That is not much.

If you are shooting a 3/32" bead, and using a "fine bead target hold," and hitting 4" low at 100 yards,
then your POI is about half way between the top of the bead and the center of the bead.

"Fine bead target hold": POA is the top edge of the bead, and bottom of bead is resting in V precisely.

A 3/32" bead = 0.09375" diameter

If you used a "coarse bead combat hold" (POA is the dead center of the bead, it covers the target) then you will be shooting about 4" high at 100 yards, in this hypothetical situation.

Tell us your sight radius, range to target (when you were 4" low), and were you using a "combat" or "target" hold with your bead, and just in case it matters, for the sake of illustative and hypothetical or real discussion, what is the current diameter of your bead?

Otherwise, go figure it out yourself!