Most of my experience entails using the .470 NE and a .375. The .375 is suppose to have a lot of penetration, which I did not witness on buffalo.

The .416 Rigby is also suppose to have a lot of penetration which I found marginal on elephant.

The .375, .416, and the Lott are suppose to have similar penetration. Since I haven't used my Lott yet, any experience in the field on penetration, at nominal velocities and bullet weights, of the 375 vs 416 vs 470 vs Lott?

Thanks,

Will

Will,

Were you shooting solids or softs?

jim dodd

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"if you are to busy to
hunt, you are too busy."

I can't answer your question directly.

However, I can recount the penetration of a .470 capstick, if that provides any yardstick.

It had a 500 grain GS custom fn solid at 2350 fps.

Shot was into a recently-expired elephant through the shoulder.

The bullet went 6.5 feet or so and came to rest near the hind quarter.

Will

quote:

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The .375, .416, and the Lott are suppose to have similar penetration.

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They have similar penetration, a lot of penetration and the highest penetration of usual cartridges, esp. compared to the NEs.
This is confirmed by theoretical calculations, experiments on artifical targets and experience with real animals in the field. In literature written by the most famous hunters these cartridges are praised as the best performers. I used at about 30 safaris .375 Weatherby, .416 RemMag and .458 Lott and can confirm this statements.(Handloaded .404 also join this category).

But such a comparision is only valid if all parameters are the same. The bullets path through an animal can differ so much with respect to the kind of tissue and the densities, and the construction of the bullet can differ so much with respect to the mechanism of its penetration that these effects may overrun this simple relationship.

The difference between a .375 and a .458 with similar penetration and same bullets is the amount of energy which is dissipated at a distinct point of the bullets path, e.g. in the vitals. Than "bigger is better" is evident.

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Norbert:

You are my kind of guy, that is I agree with all you said, except maybe the .375 (I haven't seen good penetration).

I'm trying the Lott for the first time in August (Buzz). I am expecting big, booming results.

Bill

Most of the bolt action big bores penitrate about the same or at least within a decernable amount of each other, and more than the double rifle calibers for the most part, the cross section of the bullet makes the difference in there killing effect and the Lott shines pretty well on that issue..

If you are dissatisfied with the penitration of the 375 then it was in all probability the bullet you used or you had it sizzling to fast... If you want more penitration than the 375 then you are not going to be satisfied with the Lott, you probably need a 50 MG...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Will:
Hi Will,
I did all the tests your talking about and the results are on my website. www.470mbogo.com I didn't include the 375 in my tests because I considered the big bore level to start at the 40 caliber mark. Look under the Comparing the Big Bores section.
470 Mbogo

Bill,

there can be many reasons to see not the expected penetration of a .375 in some cases.

But please, with your new Lott, leave some of the big gray giants for me, because I will try in september.

Norbert

470 Mbogo,

look at www.grosswildjagd.de -SuperPenetrator-. There is elaborated, how penetration and stabilization are working together.

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It would seem that bullet stabilization had no real effect as far as the plywood penetration tests were concerned.

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That�s true and also valid for resin bonded boards as a target and massive bone. The stabilization is governed by forces acting on the shank of the bullet and differs from the stabilization in air.

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As far as a hunting situation goes I don't think this theory should even be considered.

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That�s not true. Because 80% of an animal consists of water, we may faced to a situation as you described with the water soaked paper tests:

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The newspaper test was a total failure period. Wet paper was tried and dry paper was tried but whether I tried to put 9 shots or 3 shots into the 12 by 12 area we constantly lost bullets. After lining up the barrel for left/right and up/down a shot into the center of the 12 by 12 area exited the box within the first 28 inches.

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28 inches is a typical length a RN bullet is stabilized in aqueous media. Penetration is not a question of friction, density or other forces decelerating the bullet, but how long the gyroscopic stabilization is preserved in a cavitation bubble, which is generated by the bullet. If stabilization is lost, the bullet starts tumbling and changes its direction.
For more penetration = stabilization the concept of the SuperPenetrator was created.

Will,

While the only thing I have shot with the 458 Lott is a Warthog (Yes it did penetrate quite well) I have seen Buffalo shot with the Lott.

A client of mine used one on his Buff while I was along. The Bull was lying in the shade, 50 yards from us, and would not get up for well over an hour, our legs were cramping and going to sleep from squatting for this amount of time. Had they charged it would have been one funny sight to see three grown men hobbling away from the Buff with "sleepy legs"...anyway, the client swapped his 500 gr soft for a 500gr Barnes solid and drilled the Buff in the arse. Yes, he got up and ran (thick brush preventing a second shot) he didn't make it 50 yards before falling for good however. We approached and gave him a couple more for good measure.

It is my belief that he would have died pretty quickly with this one shot as it was well placed. We did not recover the bullet so I do not know how far it penetrated.

I will give you another example of a 500 Barnes solid and the penetration on a "medium sized buff" in another gun.

I shot a 500 grain Barnes solid at 2400 fps (guessing here) out of a 450 Dakota. Same Texas heart shot. This bullet was recovered IN the heart itself. On an exceptionally large Buffalo, I would wonder if the bullet would have made it to the heart???

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Wendell Reich
Hunter's Quest International
wendell@huntersquest.com

The 458 Lott at 2300 plus with a GSFN is devastating on Buffalo by comparison to most calibers..It will please you with its effect on big game of any kind, but like I said penitration belongs to the 375 and 416's and 404's and even the 9.3x62..they don't have the cross section to stop them. I have found the Lott penitrates better at 2150 with a solid than at 2350 but the difference is not enough to justify the lesser velocity, they all penitrate enough with some to spare 99% of the time.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Norbert:

You are too late. They notified me you were not coming in October so they sold me all your ele's for US$50 each.

Sorry. I will send you photographs.

Will

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Norbert:
Hi Norbert,
Glad to see your posts again. You're delving into the bullet stabilization to the nth degree. You've done some real good work on the subject but I'm still quite happy with my findings as being practical for the guy going hunting in Africa using solids. The bullets used are available to the public and I'm not aware of the Super Penetrators as being the same. Hopefully your onto a real good thing here. I realize that body make up is aproximately 80% water or fluids but they are contained in organs etc. I don't think that they are as compressed as the wet paper and as suggested by George Hoffman won't build up agianst the nose of the bullet causing deviation. All of the bullets tested have proven straight line penetration in the field. As you've mentioned your shot presentation can never be garanteed so the path of the bullet can't be duplicated for testing. Your results in the wet paper show a definate improvement in penetration over the round nose shape. I think that the bullet exit at the muzzle is the most imporant single factor in bullet stabilization. With the penetration that I had in plywood I'm sure there will always be enough with the solids in game.
Maybe you could answer a question for me as to why softpoints with mushrooms that are pushing and stretching as they pass through an animal will stay on course and show deep penetration. I'm posting some pictures of the Swift A-Frames that I recovered from Cape Buffalo.


All of the above bullets penetrated in a straight line. The longest shot was 85 yards and the shortest was 15 feet. the one missing the mushroom hit the Buffalo in the nose just left of the right eye and penetrated through aprox an inch and a half of bone and lodged in the neck.
Take care,
470 Mbogo

[This message has been edited by 470 Mbogo (edited 05-01-2002).]

Mbogo:

Not to put words in Norbert's mouth, but you (may) have just proved his point.

If the soft point begins to mushroom as soon at it hits flesh, it has formed its own cavitating tip on the bullet, and assuming this is what makes the bullet stable as Norbert claims, then your bullets would go in a straight line.

Since the bullet continues to mushroom it eventually slows down, but has apparently remained on a more or less straight path.

There is still the conflict between what is wanted: 1) straight line penetration and massive wound from a soft point, or 2) straight line penetration and extreme penetration (bullet exiting). It would depend on what you are hunting.

At short distances the blunt nose or capped bullet, as in Norbert's case, may be the way to go. This may not be a design for thousand yard shots, but for big, big game shot at short distances, it may be the way to go. Who knows, it may make a bullet more stable in flight through air also.

I'm not sure I believe the vapor bubble part of it, but if the tipped bullet reduces bullet sidewall contact (whether from vapor formation, vacuum formation, or whatever) then it makes sense that a bullet could be more stable in passing through flesh or newspaper.

This may also be the reason for the claimed penetration performance of the latest soft/solid blunt nose bullets (GS, etc.) that just barely mushroom. From a manufacturing standpoint the disc tipped bullet design of Norbert's may be the best design alternative. It would be difficult to make a bullet go down a barrel with a mushroom on the tip of it already!

Talk is cheap on my side, but if you tried steel caps on some bullets in the mewspaper tests, "we" could find out for sure. A possibility is to take Barnes solids, machine off the tip flat, then undercut it so the tip is a disk, similar to those in Norbert's photos.

If it works in the newspaper tests, then you and your test results would be praised forever!!

Get to it!!!!

Will

470 Mbogo,

it doesn�t matter wether the water content is contained in organs or cells etc. Any solid in game will generate its cavitation bubble, so it will fly stable for a while. The stable flight of a bullet without cavitation bubble and twist would be the transversal mode, tilted 90�. But the RN will loose its stabilisation much earlier than the SP. That is the difference in yours and mine water soaked experiments. In game the about 30" penetration of a conventional bullet are mostly sufficient and deviation is observed only with shots lenghtwise through the animal or at close distances.
In solid materials (plywood, bone) the mechanism of stabilisation is another one. They penetrate straight until they stick.

So I say always: There is no problem using proven bullets. And my SuperPenetrator was in a first instance the result of getting a sound explanation for the penetration effects and is in no way a marketing effort.

Will�s answer on your question on mushrooming bullets is an exellent interpretation.

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This may also be the reason for the claimed penetration performance of the latest soft/solid blunt nose bullets (GS, etc.) that just barely mushroom.

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And I observe that some smaller bullet maker will jump on my train.

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