After having dealt with non-standard cartridge issues, primarily brass availability, but also componet bullets, the 465 H&H would be immediately disqualified. Life is simply too short to have to deal with the hassles of chasing down compnets and waiting months for them to arrive, if at all.

Now that we've narrowed it down to the 45 cal, the question is Rigby or Weatherby. I find some of the previous comments curious, as the rounds are almost identicle, except for the belt.

I'm assuming that loaded ammo availability will be rather limited for either round. Also, since Weatherby ammo is loaded much hotter than the desired performance level, it wouldn't really be an advantage.

So, I'd chamber 450 Rigby, and if you were to make a nice companion rifle, have a 350 Rigby built. But that gets back to the problem of brass availability.

After all is said and done, if I make this project a reality the cartridge will have a Rigby headstamp, now which one is still open for debate.
Paul, I thought about what you have said and the 350, interesting as it is and a great match to it's larger brothers, would indeed prove far too much trouble.

John,

The 350 is an outstanding round, and thanks again for hooking me up with the dies. The trouble is re-forming 375 brass is a major PITA, and the headstamp is wrong. I picked up 5 boxes of Bertram brass when Huntington was clearing them out for $10/box. Problem is Betram brass is too soft for modern loads 250 gr @ 2700 fps, and possibly too soft for even original spec loads.

The one upside of the Bertram brass is I found an outstanding cast bullet load, 44 gr of RL 15 over a Lyman 358009 ~280 gr @~2000 fps. I managed a 5 shot moa group at 100 yds with it.

For hunting loads, 66gr Varget is pushing the 250 gr Hornady rn 2700 fps even for 3 shot 5/8" groups. Hopefully I can find a load that shoots with the Bertram brass and the 250 gr rn that the rifle seems to like.

If I were into matching pairs, I would have made a 450 Rigby, but decided to be boring and have a 458 Lott made. I suppose it makes an odd couple, the svelte English gentleman, and the fat ugly American

For the sake of some discussion, let's say I am going to have built my ideal or dream bolt rifle for hunting dangerous game. I have decided to use a Hartmann & Weiss magnum mauser action and will have it stocked by one of the premier builders in this country. Exceptionally fine walnut blank is already chosen, as are sighting options, and other minor details. The big question is...which cartridge? I am going to limit this to just these three...450 Rigby, 460Wby and 465 H&H..the new one made for bolt rifles. I intend to load any of them to a maximum velocity of 2350fps with 500gr bullets.
Okay guys and gals, tell me which one to chose and why you would recommend it.

To be brief, it depends.

Depends on how old you are, or how much you can carry. In my opinion, they are all too big, for the rifle will probably wind up being 10 lbs. plus, which makes for a good fence post but not too handy for hauling around the boonies.

But as John Wayne said, "You do what you think is best."

Just my opinion, but I would avoid the 460 wby. That cartridge hates being downloaded. I shoot a few rifles off of that case and they do very very poorly when the pressure drops. But then again, I have never been to Africa, so any opinion I have is without that experience.

Joe

I believe that I would tend towards the Rigby. Seems like a pretty decent cartridge. The 460 doesn't really do anything for me. The 465 does hold some interest, however.

I think I'd go with the Rigby, as the ballistics you seek coincide perfectly with what it's designers had in mind. Also possibly an edge in magazine capacity and function. However, the .465 is certainly of interest. Here are some good comments on it: http://www.chuckhawks.com/465HHmag.htm

Will-
I think 10 pounds is a good weight for a large bore rifle that has significant recoil, as any of these would have, I can pack the 10 pounds.
I like the Rigby for several reasons, not the least of which is it's ability to use cheap and readily available 458cal bullets. The 460Wby also offers this advantage over the H&H round. IMO, this round will suffer until the demand forces the premium bullet makers to make something in this diameter. What is currently offered is designed around the 500/465 velocity level, ie 2000fps. I'm not sure a soft point would stand up very well to the additional 350-400fps the 465 H&H will push it.
The other point to consider is brass availability, quality and cost, here I think the 460Wby is the clear winner. Also, I don't think the 460 would pose any problems if it were downloaded a bit to these specs. My current 450 Dakota is basically the same thing and it operates at this level w/o any problems whatsoever.

John S

If you were truly having this combination built the cost of cheap bullets and cheap brass would be of little concern.

I would go for the Holland. Just because, no particular reason.

I see nothing wrong with the 450 Rigby as a second choice. My first choice would be between a 460 and a 460 based 500.
Right now I am starting on a 500 a-2.

Mickey-
The 465 H&H would be my first choice but...the lack of GOOD bullets for this performance level is the sticking point.

Well, you have already screwed up big time. So, I would have to ask you first of all to rethink your choices before it's too late, being the wiseguy that I am .

You are spending way too much money and sacrificing magazine capacity for no functional or ballistic advantage.

All you need for what you want is a nice, economical CZ 550 Magnum action barrelled in .458 Lott. 2,300 or so fps and five down in the box.

But, if you must be willfully wrong about this . . . I'd take the Weatherby over the others. Power to spare and the availability and lower cost of the ammo clearly tilt the balance in Roy's favor over Messrs. Rigby and Holland (both of them) .

And 10 lbs. is way too light unless you have a masochistic streak. Anyone who can't lug around an 11-12 pounder all day needs to help the wife carry in the groceries more often.

I have some experience with the .450 Rigby. It is a very nice round and does precisley what you are asking a round to do. The rifle I played with in South Africa was a Mauser type action I don't know the build and weighed in at 11LBS it was quite nice to shoot. I didn't have a chance to test it out on anything large but it was hell on a Mt Reedbuck and my budy killed an old Giraffe bull with it. Needless to say it was quite effcient for both.

Given your three choices it all boils down to which you would like best as they are pretty much in the same catagory as far as ability. I'd go with the Rigby or the H&H just because they sound cooler.....

I have already done the Lott, didn't care for it. It's what I call the 2/3 solution, to get that 2300fps you're back to the high pressure thing and that is one reason for these other choices. They do whatever the Lott can at much lower pressures. I currently own the 450 Dakota in a 10 pound rifle, recoil is tolerable and more easily dealt with than packing 12 pounds or more all day!

Frankly, given a H&W action and premier stocking, your selection of cartidges is medioce at best. At that price level why not a 505 Gibbs or a 500 A2? Both are substantially better with a proven history and pedigree. Reminds me of the German hunter I met in ZIm with a beautifully engraved H&W takedown rifle in 338 Lapua! Yuck-Rob

John

Do you think that Woodlieghs are too fragile at that velocity? I'm not sure as I have heard they are designed for the 21-2200 fps.

The Rigby would be my second choice, again for no particular reason. I would never have the 460. It isn't cool enough for a Custom made rifle.

Okay, okay.

I can see you're a man who's made up his mind. (But I think you're making too much out of the Lott's pressure. According to Quickload, my chronographed 2,300 fps load generates about 48K psi. And no buff will feel the extra 50 fps from your Rigby/Holland/Weatherby. )

Here's what you want, and it's available right off the shelf, too:

John Rigby & Co. London .450 Magnum Bolt Action Express Rifle

So, stop shopping and spend the kids' college money now.

FWIW My Woodliegh bullets for my .500 Jeffrey have the following, printed on the boxes "Optimum desired impact velocity for best termimal bullet performance 1800-2200 feet per second"

Out of those mentioned I like the .450 Rigby. I am unsure of what the .465 H&H acheives ballistic wise.

John,

Your rejection of the Lott on pressure concerns reveals the elitist approach to caliber choice.

As mrlexma already implied, God ordained the CZ 550 for the Lott. Enough horsepower (about 5800 ft-lbs at 2300 fps), 5 down, acceptable pressure, and inexpensive.

But no, go use a H&W action. Spend $12,000 on the project.

Why worry about the least available cartridge and components? For that kind of money, just have Woodleigh make you your own custom bullets.

Nickudu,

To be different for the sake of being different is as legitimate as any other reason, I suppose, for bringing out yet another new cartridge. After skimming the article that you linked above, it is the same old stuff, IMO. Everyone wants to get on the big bore craze.

And, as I have settled on the .416 Rem., I find it highly insulting that this guy has made the comment on the 416 that "most hunters are not satisfied with the performance..." (Typical sales promo talk).

Too bad John didn't ask whether it should be a bolt action or a double while he was at it. Could have really stirred it up then.

Bill,



Your rejection of the Lott on pressure concerns reveals the elitist approach to caliber choice.



I have owned two 460 Wbys, three 458 Winchesters and have been directly involved with a 450 Ackley. Compared to the 450 Ackley the 460 is like a big V8 idling down the road.



Quite a common post on this forum and the Big Bores forum is a posting where the person asks about what powder he can use for the 458 Lott to get 2300 f/s. JJJack has discovered that Reloader 7 and 450 Barnes X is the solution!!



And so it goes on. Ray Atkinson has said that 4320 will get you there. In fact Ray has elaborated on the efforts that David Miller has made in developing loads for the 458 Lott. It seems to be a science to get the 458 Lott to 2300. All very hard.



Who wants to have a top end rifle in 45 calibre and worry about which powder, which bullet and which pressure to hopefully get 2300. Much nicer and easier to be able to get 2300 with reduced loads. Life was meant to be easy.



Mike

If I were going to have a 450 built, I damn sure wouldn't have Rigby do it. They are producing inferior bolt rifles compared to American and German gunmakers. Albeit there are few gunmakers in this country that specialize in DGR. They build better rifles than the Brits ever did.

Everytime someone comes on a forum and wants to talk about a high dollar rifle they want to buy or have built someone else criticizes the amount of money he is spending on it. It is then pinted out that he can get the equivallent cartridge in a cheaper rifle. Bullets are too much, brass is too much. He should then take the savings and go hunting.

News. Some people can afford both. There are people on this formum that go to Africa 3-4 times a year and shoot multiple Elephants on each hunt. There are people on this forum who go to Africa and take 10 -20 guests and pay for everybody and everything. There are people on this forum who have numerous $15-100,000 rifles and shotguns.

This topic was to be a discussion of caliber between the 460, 450 Rigby and 465 Holland. It was made clear that the action and stock were already chosen. Let's talk about that. Not whether a Ruger or Speer bullets are cheaper.

Okay, I'm finished and will be quiet.

Rob-

The choices I listed were made because they work and are tolerable to shoot in a rifle that weighs under 12 pounds. I would agree that a 505 Gibbs or 500 Jeffrey might be a more "classic" choice but having previously owned a 500 A-Sq. I left them out because of recoil issues. My previous 500 ended up weighing 13 pounds before it was tolerable, and then I couldn't carry it!



Mickey-

Those Woodleighs are great bullets when used in the double rifles but I have my doubts about them for this application. Those made for a 416 Rigby and 500J were designed for the higher velocity so I'd expect them to work properly.



Will-

I like the 416 too, have owned several of them for years and still consider the caliber the best all around big bore. But for this project even God himself, CZ and 458 Lott just won't do!

okay, since you are elimiating the cz or ruger actions, i would chamber, but not load, this beast for the 460w, loaded down to 2300.

This would allow the best HOPE for finding factory ammo to feed it,should pellets and pipe become seperated.


Don't cant about that portion? The forget those 3 40's, and go with a 470 mbogo, www.470mbogo.com 500 grain, 2300 fps, low recoil in a 10.5 # including the merc tube..


I'll tell you what the other's aren't saying...

save thehuge $$$ for the hunt

build a cz
CZ
$650 , 416 rifle, stock, sights
$250, new sights
$35, new sights mounted
$450 pacnor to mount and blue the barrel
$399 mcmillian stock or pretty decent wood

$1754, plus shipping..

150 for mac to fit your stock

$1904... buy your dies, brass,and bullets...

go hunting

jeffe

Mike,

I must be one of the few that see no problem getting the Lott to do 2300 fps. Yeah, the 4320 is greatly compressed with 500 gr. bullets but never saw any sign of high pressure. I hear the same stuff about high pressure about the .416 Rem. Maybe I am just lucky as to never have had a problem with either.

Anyway, them big bruisers are just that. Too much bruising and/or too heavy. Call me a sissy, but the 8 lb. 416 is more my style.

.

I'll have to go with Will, I have never had a problem with the 416 Rem, 416 Rigby or 404 Jefferys...

I actually find it rather comical to hear folks say that the 40's are not enough gun....I have used the 458 Lott and the 505 Gibbs and I find them all about the same in the real world, and I have shot enough big stuff to feel confident in that statement...these big animals are not tanks, they are flesh and blood..

Now, if a person likes a 505 or a 458 Lott or a 600 N.E., then I find no fault in their using these fine guns as they certainly do kill big animals, but I do find it ridiculas when someone tells me that my 416 is not enough gun for whatever walks this planet..It is ALL I need.

Now I am currently shooting the time proven .470 PH model double by Butch Searcy and I find it a fine caliber and a wonderfully balanced gun at 10 lbs, but I found the 450-400 to be all I really needed..

Balance and handling are foremost for me, pointability rates no. 1, caliber second..I like accuracy in all rifles as I might just need to shoot something in the eye with my tiny 404, or my big ole .470....I do not relish packing a 13.5 lb. 577 in the bush...

So, its just a matter of opinnion but I like the 40s as well as anything and if I had to hunt elephants the rest of my life for my livelyhood, I would choose my 416 Rem by Searcy or my 404 bolt gun...I would love to be allowed to keep my double, but in the end I would choose a bolt gun.

The only place I know where the 40's ain't big enough is on the internet where the elephants are 15 feet tall and the buff weigh 5000 lbs. and the Lions are awsome creatures that soak up 400 gr. missles with aplomb.

JohnS
I would stay with the 458 Bore for a bolt rifle. There is a wide variety of bullets suitable for the velocities you mention. However.....
For that kind of money have you considered a Double Rifle?
Have you ever used a double rifle. If you were planning to scope you Bolt Rifle, have you thought about a scoped Double. If not Why not?

Just FYI: I've been commissioned to build a 460Wby for a PH in Tanzania (Using Granite Arms Action) Reloading eqiuipment is not allowed in that country, he's going with a 21 1/2" barrel! Wonder if this will automatically drop velocities? To what? Haven't gotten far enough along to chronograph it. If anyone has clocked this combo, I'd like to hear from them. One thing though, he's used such a rifle for over 20 yrs. now and hasn't had a problem, incident or second thought. He feels comfortable with factory ammo.

From the wording in your first post, I'm guessing this isn't a real rifle, but just a conversation starter.
If it were me, I'd be sure to make use of that 3.8" magazine. If you're not worried about chasing down ammo (has anyone actually seen a 465 H&H round? ans how many stock the Rigby?) I'd make mine a wildcat, like the Vincenet Long.
In a CZ you could get 5 down, with speeds and pressures well within the happy zone.
Maybe set the irons up for a heavy Bridger if/when, and sight the scope for 350g North Forks at about 2800 fps for your rabbit load.

Mickey-

Thanks, you read my mind. As for whether or not this will/could be a "real" rifle, one just never knows about somethings!

I've been down the double rifle road as well, didn't work fo me. And yes, my last double rifle actually had detach scope mounts on it, and it did help with the accuracy. That said, doubles are nice but just not really my thing. I do not want to be trapped into one loading with one bullet and basically they are a rifle made for just that.

I agree with Will and Ray about the 416s and 404s, they are great rifles and perfectly adequate for any type of dangerous game hunting. However, I can pack 10 pounds and the recoil from one of these 450s, loaded to sane levels is not so bad at that weight...so the choice still comes back to the ones mentioned in my first post.

I agree with NE 450 #2, on the value of useing the .458 diameter from a cost, and availability standpoint. What I don't understand, here, is this hot need to get 2350 fps with a 500 gr .458 bullet. IMO, anything over 2150 fps with a .458, 480, to 500 gr bullet is wasted on anything but paper! A buffalo will never note the difference, but your shoulder will. In some cases the extra velocity is a drawback, where penitration is concerened.

The 458 LOTT will get 2150 fps at around 40,000 PSI chamber pressure, with less recoil, in a lighter rifle than either of the choices mentioned. The 458 LOTT is also a cheaper rifle to build, and shoot. It can be built lighter, for long carry, and typically holds more rounds in the magazine.

However, given the choices you list, my choice would definetly NOT be the 460 WBY, and between the other two, I would be leaning toward the Rigby, for convenience of getting componants, but for some other reasons, I would just as soon have the 465 H&H, to go with three other identical rifles cambered for 400H&H, 375H&H, and 300H&H.

When you get down to brass tacks, I would rather have a 450/400 3" double rifle than any of them, but that is just me!

It's funny, but guys can spend big money on some rather iffy imported side-by-side shotguns, and no one utters a negative word. I've seen guys get ripped off by paying big money on old double rifles that were ready to come off the face, and no one shrills. But invest in a best-quality bolt-gun that's built to the highest of standards, and someone always seems to pipe up over price. Weird..... especially considering the bolt guns versatility (as opposed to the double), as well as the price and magnitude of the hunts it will likely be used upon (dove hunts in Mexico versus lion safaris in Tanzania, for example). Your money or your life - engraved quail & dog scenes versus life-saving functional excellence. Take you're pick.....

Anyhow, John, if I were investing in one of those lovely H&W actions, I'd have a .416 Rigby built. To me, that cartridge makes the most sense if you're going with an extra-big action. It offers the most versatility, and should also better insure the value of the rifle over the long term.

AD

Mickey1 etc,

To all of you on this forum that have more money than God, thank you, so very, very much, for your input.

It is fun to argue about (discuss) but in the end, who gives a crap? Build anything you want to. Sort of like Sunday football, entertaining but in reality just a waste of time.

And remember, you said you have quit, so don't be bad mouthing me in a reply.

Mickey,

Do you think any of these people that can afford all that hunting and such are looking to adopt? Or what about looking for a porter to carry all their things around africa for them. :-)

I can write up an application for anybody interested.

Red