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| one of us |
I was very impressed with the GS Solids on both Dangerous Game and Plainsgame....I shot a number of both with my 416 Rem (A Searcy Rifle) and the internal destruction amazed me when compared to regular solids...It was apparant that the damage was equal to a soft nose but in a different way... The difference is the solid gave a longated devastating wound channal all the way through the animal as opposed to the short baloon of the soft thereby creating about the same amount of tissue dammage as the soft. Exits wounds on Zebra, Impala and Eland were about 1" to slightly larger and that was impressive.. I talked to North Fork, who is making a cup point, soon to be tested by Big Sam and his bunch and North Fork is getting simular effect from the cup point as I described above. I will also add that one GS FN penitrated a Buff from front to rear, smashing a bunch of spine and exiting out behind the hindquarter. That is awesome penitration and in a stright line I might add.... I think these two bullet makers are on to something...I have pushed for such bullets for years after flattening some TCCI solids on my drill press in 1995 and testing them on Buffalo...I noticed then how well they killed and how much better the blood trails were when compared to round nose solids....Feeding was my problem back then, but these bullet makers have apparantly gotten around that... I was more than impressed with the results on plainsgame but need more kills to draw a real conclusion as to how they compare to softs on the plains animals..It's promising and much better than standard round nose solids. | ||
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| One of Us |
Hi Ray, Thanks for making an inquiry with GS and posting their response. I got an email from Gina and am expecting 1/2 of my order in 2-3 weeks, and the rest 6+ weeks out. Fingers are crossed. [ 09-20-2002, 01:30: Message edited by: 500grains ] | |||
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Whatever happened to the guy who was getting a whopper shipment from GS Custom so he could sell them directly from the U.S.? | |||
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Peter, I have use the GS HV on deer and antelope in the US a few times and they expand very well indeed, I believe them to be a much improved version of the Barnes X bullet....and much more accurate in most rifles...They shoot well in ALL my rifles. I believe the driving bands used by both GS and North Fork are a boon to accuracy and pressure. | |||
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| one of us |
I'm in no way trying to equate the GS bullets to any hardcast bullets. No. Both are different metals, with the fact the GS bullets being stronger... What I am going to say is, the flat point (meplat) of this GS bullet produces wound channels, and straight penetration, that a properly made hard cast bullet sporting a simular, perhaps even wider, meplat does. This is the info Ross Seyfried has spoken of, many times. This is the results many hunters have spoken of, as well, when using hardcast bullets. That the GS is made of stouter material, is hardly the point, no pun intended. Its the design of the bullet that does the killing. A HC bullet will be traveling at lesser speeds then any GS bullet will be doing, so it doesn't have to be as stout as other solids. Its supposed to go slower. This is where this type of bullet produces it's greatest success, at 2,000 FPS or slower. Ask Seyfried. Its in one of his recent articals. Why is it so hard for some to understand this? Even harder for some to accept this? A wide meplat does a lot of damage. Period. ~~~Suluuq | |||
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As far as the importer/distributor for GS customs is concerned, my understanding is that he is now waiting for his BATF paperwork...... If it's not one thing, it's another..... HTH, Dutch. | |||
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Rusty, I don't believe that anyone on this board will take exception to your post on the effectiveness of a flat Mephlet??? I sure won't, I have known that to be a fact for years, maybe eons! I have spent years trying to get the bullet companies in the US to make such a solid as the GS. Most of my mail and conversation has landed on deaf ears until North Fork came along and GS figured it out several years ago...Speer came close with the tungston bullet... The issues your referring to have nothing to do with the shape of the bullet, but rather SD, velocity, and weight of bullet for caliber as I read them. Have I missed something here? | |||
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quote:Actually, it is the point. If you want to break an elephant's shoulder, the bullet better hold together. Soft cast bullets bend and mush all over the place. Hard cast bullets shatter when they hit something hard. That is why premium solid bullets are made out of copper alloy (GS Custom), brass (Barnes, TCCI), tungsten carbide (AGS), or steel-lined gilding (Woodleigh). If hard cast lead were up to the task, we could all save lots of money on bullets. | |||
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500 grs. makes a good case in his post with which I completely agree, bullet material is all important in a solid or even a soft. I would only use GS solids or its equivelent in my lever gun should I take on dangerous game. I can live with a little less velocity if I have a good bullet that will penitrate. In some cases less velocity will benifit penitration to some extent. However, I will never know as using a lever gun in Africa is not on my agenda...I'm quite satisfied with a 416, 404 or something of that ilk. I have nothing to prove one way or the other. I respect anyones need to do so, but even success in doing so means little to me, as I have shot Buffalo with much less powerfull calibers than the lever guns without incident. Such practices when pushed to the limit normally ends in disaster sooner or later I suspect. I figure I beat the odds and quite while I was ahead... | |||
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quote:BATF paperwork? For bullet COMPONENTS??? Well, um, okay. I guess after Waco, nothing about the BATF should surprise me... but bullet COMPONENTS??? I can't help wishing we could go back to the days when this was a nation of riflemen instead of a nation of golfers. Russ [ 09-25-2002, 01:55: Message edited by: Russell E. Taylor ] | |||
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| <rossi> |
Ray, It is for this reason I choose CorBon loads. Their bullet integrity is second to none for tube feed levers and handgun hunting. Thier 444 Marlin and 45-70 ammo is supurb. They offer the soft FN Expander (280gr in 444 at 2240fps and 350gr at 1900fps in 45-70). I took a nice big bodied 4x4 elk last year with the 280gr at 130 yards, broadside (below the shoulder and back a couple inches) shot went clean through. For the thick skinned game they offer their solid Penetrator (305gr in the 444 at 2150fps and 405gr in the 45-70 at 1650fps). I truely believe the 444 Marlin pushing the 305gr FN solid, could be most formidable at 125 yards and in. If I was ever to try a buff with my 444 Marlin (a much disputed topic at one point on this board), it would be loaded with the CorBon 305gr Penetrator. Unfortunately, CorBon will not sell their bullets, just their ammo. They use blended powders combined with their bullet technology to achieve some very good ammo for levers, wheel guns and pistols. rossi | ||
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quote:The connection I make is simple. Its what Ross Seyfried has said of HC LBT bullets, and what the hunting results were using the same bullets. Spectacular, he says. Dead DG, reveals the hunters. That the bullets don't go 2,400 FPS does not apply to HC bullets, I'm afraid. I've never advocated this speed for them. At 2,000 or less, HC LBT bullets do very well. They were designed for this speed. Any faster, and they'd likely break apart. But, you'll notice no one shoots HC bullets at 2,400 FPS! Instead, the HC LBT's are shoot at 2,000 FPS (sometimes a touch over this), and the end results are, as Seyfried said, spectacular! The same meplat as a GS does wonderful things, as you already know. Given the limits of the bullet, the speeds of a levergun, I can understand how some feel it may not "make the grade", but it does, none the less. This is due to the material of a properly made HC bullet being shot at it's intended speed, not at 2,400 where it may likely break. The meplat does the rest. Straight and deep penetration kills very effectively. A HC LBT is supposed to go at 2,000 FPS. The maplat does the rest. Seyfried says this, the hunters prove this. Could they be wrong? I don't think so, but I leave this up to others to make up their own mind. SD, speeds, bullet weights... Take Garrett's 540 loading, for example. Plenty of weight, with a high SD, but it lacks the 2,400 FPS speeds some require for a bullet to kill, but I wonder where the momentum of this bullet automatically goes just because it isn't 2,400? ~~~Suluuq [ 09-25-2002, 07:00: Message edited by: Rusty Gunn ] | |||
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HI, RUSTY GUNN is on the money again,WW HC and a little tin will help HC from breaking up. Thanks,Kev Thanks,Kev | |||
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| One of Us |
Why doesn't someone who has shot an elephant in the shoulder with a cast lead bullet speak up? | |||
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You may or may not be right, I do not know and don't intend on finding out.. I personally think based on my experience with the 458 that 2000 FPS is too slow...Do I think I could kill a Buffalo with these rounds? I know I could...Could I stop a charge without backup, I would be very concerned, so I will not use one... I see no point in trying to prove something that I pretty well know the answer to...A point that has no validity in the first place and I wonder if anyone defending these guns intends to face a Buffalo charge with one without a backup to save them, or is all this just town talk..... The point is I know they will kill a Buffalo if all is right, its the tight situations that bother me, and I have enough experience and intelligence to want more gun than may be necessary...I would just hate to stand a charge with a 444 or 45-70 with any bullet. I have seen M'Bogo eyes zeroed on me as late as last month. A big gun is a nice feeling of confidence. So, I ask all what is the point?? | |||
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| <rossi> |
Ray, After hearing from experienced African Hunters and PHs, I'm now a believer in more gun for buff, you'll get no argument from me. Make mine a 416 or 458 bolt gun throwing big RN projectiles. | ||
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Is North Fork making a FN? They should... | |||
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| one of us |
KeninNY, Yes they are. All solids from them are currently experimental and not yet for sale to the public. I will be trying (volunteer) the "Cupped Tipped" solid in a few days in Tanzania on BUFF. I did not load any of the true flat points due to weight/count restrictions and I feel that testing one at a time is enough to stay focused on and to give a thorough testing. It seemed that most of the 'posters' were at first interested in this solid, so this one is getting to the dance first. Initial testing on hide covered medium has been very interesting. A solid that does expand at the front. Stay tuned for the results from the field. Give Mike Brady a call and he can fill you in on any technical details of his bullets. (307) 436-5780 All the best, SAM | |||
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quote:Ray... What you have said here is pretty much what I've been saying all along, that a 45-70 can kill DG, as used by a hunter, not a PH. I've never recommended it for a PH, instead I mentioned they'd have to make their own choice to do so. I have not made any claims it will be the best 'stopper' in all situations, but do believe it will do better then most imagine it will do. Perhaps it will fail miserably, and perhaps not. (I've yet to hear of one single person get killed due to using a 45-70 with modern loads.) Its esentially up to the hunter/PH to decide if one is used. In any case, I seem to have a little more faith in it then most here, but thats fine with me. ~~~Suluuq | |||
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So Rusty Gunn, are you now saying that the 45-70 is in the same class as a 7.62 x 39? Seems so. They will both kill a buff. Neither is a stopper. Of course, neither of them is legal in most countries where buffalo is hunted. | |||
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Rusty, I have never been in disagreement with you on the 45-70 or the use of a lever action, other than I have stated that I will not be the one to use it as I a very practical person and prefer to read about others using such argueable rifles and cartridges on dangerous game...I know of no-one who has been injured using the 45-70, but few have used it, so that's point to be made...Teddy R prefered the 30-06 according to his writings and Cottat was killed by a Rhino using his 405, but with inferior bullets of the day... So yes I beleive it can be done and the only thing that I have ever questioned is the use of the 1886 and 71 lever actions with pressures over 38,000 PSI max and I KNOW that it is pushing the string to exceed those pressures in those actions. Read the latest American Rifleman, obviously Winchester found that out years ago with an expermental round or two. I found that out with the 450 Alaskan on a Win Deluxe grade Mod. 71 in the early 60's with a dropped powder charge that was a little warm but nothing like what some of the LAF's are suggesting today and my incident was not life threatening but did develope a headspace problem with one shot.....I would, on the other hand load the round down to 1700 FPS with a good hard flat nose bullet and shoot the buffalo under favorable circumstances with very carefull bullet placement, much the same as an archer woutld, and take my chances with N'Yati rather than a rifle failure. Remember it only takes one load to develope headspace, it is not a gradual thing and the next round may be all she wrote. I only get in these discussions from a intelectual conversation standpoint, as that is what this forum is all about and I enjoy these discussions and I do not require anyone to agree or disagree with me. I read and evaluate each post on a subject that I am going to post to, and then express my views one way or the other, thats healthy IMO, and the Lever Actions and the 45-70 have been interresting conversation for the most part..Of course you have to discard the chafe in any conversation or post thread. Like I said I think your right, as presented in your above post.. | |||
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quote:Concerning whatever I write, you certainly can read into them whatever you require to uphold you're stance, it don't bother me. Make out-of-context comparisons you need, you're almost making me give up the love for leverguns, and going Mauser totally! ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} ~~~Suluuq | |||
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GODDAMMIT ,WE HAVE SOMEHOW TURNED ANOTHER GOOD THREAD INTO A 45-70 PISSING MATCH!!! | |||
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Kev, Kev, He who lives in a glass house should not chunk rocks ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| <George Hoffman> |
Well said, ALF | ||
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I apologize if I am missing it, but what rock did I throw? | |||
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| <leo> |
500 Grains, you totally missed Rusty Gunn's point! He plainly said he wasn't equating the cast bullets with the GS flat nose, thinking ahead of time to keep you from doing just exactly what you did anyway; misunderstand. Understand the man's post. He was plaining pointing out that both have FLAT NOSES and THUS create the same kind of wound channel; that's all! Stop grasping for things to be argumentative about. And there you were being sarcastic by asking if anyone has ever shot an elephant in the shoulder with a cast bullet. | ||
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quote:Leo... Thank you very much! Well said. Some just don't compprehend what I write, they'd rather find fault in the whole process and nit-pick about it. ALF... What shall we do about all the dead DG shot with the 45-70? Dismiss it as a fluke? Perhaps you can, as well as some others here, but not everyone dismisses success, regardless of where it comes from. The 45-70 is not a common round to take to Africa, this we already know. Perhaps less then 1% of all the hunters going to Africa will take one as compared to other rounds being used annually, but are we to believe the DG shot with a 45-70 will be less dead because of it? Exactly how much more dead should they be to equal the death produced by a 458 Win at it's worst? I was lead to believe there is only one level of dead. Perhaps I'm wrong? ~~~Suluuq | |||
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Leo, I am just following up on his earlier posts in several threads which promoted the 45-70 with cast lead bullets for thick skinned dangerous game. This is kind of like stepping into a conversation in the middle. The statements might seem out of place if you do not know what was said before. | |||
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| one of us |
Rusty, For the sake of conversation, we could apply that same criteria to the 22 L.R., or 22 Hornet and 44 Mag. pistol. I know of Buffalo that have been killed with all three of these calibers, but it doesn't mean a heck of a lot... The problem with all this 45-70 stuff is some are simply trying to prove a point that is valid, the others are opposing it for equally valid reasons.. I doubt that a hell of a lot of Buff will ever be hunted with the 45-70 anyway so what is the point..Sure someone will do it to prove it can be done but thats an exercise in futility as most of us know it can be done. It has made for some stimulating conversation but it's about worn out now and becomming repetitious. I can't think of anything that has not been said on both sides in the last couple of months...and it all boiled down to yes it can be done, no it isn't an intelligent practice without a PH backing you up. I think all agree on this. | |||
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Atkinson... Yes, we're all beating a dead horse. Some say giddy-up, others shoot it again... the same old results. A dead horse don't go no where. ~~~Suluuq | |||
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