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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Re: African PH's professionals or profiteers?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| not one of us |
Hey Jim in Idaho. You also make a valid point. However I am of the opinion that they are profiteers. Most of them make a hearty profit to the point of gauging the hunter. Do they take risks? I guess so. Should they be gracious? Hey for 12 grand they should have their wives sucking my "you know what" at the end of the day. They are gracious becuase they are paid to be so. Are they courageous? Are they true hunters? I doubt it. But hey, that's just me. Hahaha C | ||
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| not one of us |
I hunt. But then again I do like to make my opinions known. On this forum people just get so bent out of shape. C | |||
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| not one of us |
Question: What is your honest opinion on the state of the average African PH? Do you feel many of them are true hunters in the classic sense? Or simply armed tour guides making big bucks and packing massive caliber rifles to bail themselves should they actually run into the slightest bit of danger? Personally I never really cared for them accept as a guide in unfamiliar terrain. But that is just my opinion. We obviously can't legally hunt without them, nor do most of us have the time to scout hunting grounds in advance of a Safari hunt. So I guess we are stuck with them. Your thoughts? C | |||
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| one of us |
I suspect of a lot of guys with your ideas would end up on a slab in Dar es Salaam without them... So, just how much do you know about elephants, Lions, and Buffalo, how are your tracking skills as compared to some of Africas best, Do you have the knowledge to set up a camp in the Selous for instance, Are you familiar with all the laws of the country, could you deal with the many emergencies that crop up in these remote places, do you speak several of the local languages,...and I have not even touched the surface. I think your post reinforces my stance that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing....but the bottom line is that your post is a moot question for the most part. | |||
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| One of Us |
Quote: Ray, which part of that post demonstrated knowledge, even a little of it? | |||
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| not one of us |
Quote: If you feel that way, and I cleary stated that you would, being you have a "Financial Stake" in taking peoples money. Why bother responding? I wouldnt follow your lame ass through Selous or anywhere else. Besides Why go all the way to Daar Es Salaam. There are plenty of other places to end up on a slab. What did you do Atkinson? Break out your geography book to convince people you are actually a real guide? C | |||
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| one of us |
I was under the impression that PH's don't make "big bucks". I am going to RSA in 45 days and could not imagine hunting DG, much less plains game (which is what I am doing) without the assistance of a PH. | |||
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| not one of us |
Quote: If you couldn't imagine it, then you have a very limited imagination. But hey that is your opinion and your entitled. C | |||
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| one of us |
Carmelo, In a previous post you stated that you have never been to Africa and are only now planning your first trip to Namibia. My question is what is your first-hand knowledge of African PH's? Perhaps you've met a few at some trade shows, but obviously you have never hunted with one. I don't think it is prudent to knock the profession of someone who might just save your bacon one day. It's sort of like telling a firefighter he's just a glorified water boy as he's trying to save you from a burning building. | |||
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| not one of us |
Quote: Ahhh! I have to admit this is actually a good point! And true as well. I have never hunted in Africa this is my first trip. However I have hunted with PH's in the US and other countries, I don't believe they will be much different in Africa, but I could be wrong. (will find out soon enough) But I have heard many stories and the concensus seems to be that if you could hunt Africa without one, meaning no legal issues, the hunter has the time and money to become familiar with the terrain. Etc. These are the things that make us spend the $$. Not some old bastard standing behind me with a 416 shitting his pants because I am carrying a 45-70 a caliber he knows nothing about. C | |||
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| one of us |
Carmelo, The point you make is a valid one. If hunters of the past were as spineless as some of the old boys here, and were that concerned about ending up on the slab, then Folk like Selous, Bell and a host of others would not have set foot in the dark continent, as there were no PH's about in those days !! The truth of the matter is PH's are in it for the money, unfortunately one cannot, realistically, hunt in Africa without one. Tracking , in the main, is done by trackers, who are mainly indigenous people. I would love to hunt DG with a couple of local trackers,rather than have someone pick out an animal, set up the sticks, tell me where to place the shot, and fire off a back up shot. I have seen a grey haired , pot bellied old man swinging a rope somewhere in Tanzania. Now this old guy would need a PH.... DJ. PS Such a shame that some cantankerous old buggers feel the need to put in a rude response to a pretty uncontentious remark. | |||
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| not one of us |
Thank you DJ. It your rationale is a breathe of fresh air amongst a bunch of stale ole pussy's. I agree completely. Can you imagine Atkinson tracking anything other than a Miller Genuine Draft in the back of his refrigerator? I dont't think so. C | |||
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| one of us |
I�ve only met and hunted with a handful of African PH�s myself. A couple of them were a bit flamboyant � meaning rather outgoing personalities, living life to the fullest, that kind of stuff. A couple of them were more the quiet type. But all were highly skilled and knowledgeable of their craft � finding game, tracking it, judging trophies, and probably the most taxing task of all, very graciously putting up with us, the visiting hunters. They were no more in the business of profiteering than a finish carpenter, computer programmer, airline pilot or some other skilled professional. In fact when one looks at the daily rate and then takes into account the cost of lodging, food, transportation � providing their own bakkie, maintenance and expensive fuel for same, so on and so forth, they make much less than any of the three professions mentioned. And none of those professions has a very good chance of being seriously hurt by lions, leopards, buffalo, snakes or any of a few dozen other ways African fauna can hurt you. (Okay, a pilot can crash or a carpenter can bash his thumb with a hammer. As computer programmer myself I am in danger of carpal tunnel syndrome and once suffered a serious paper cut.  )Everyone is entitled to his opinion and if you feel that they are all profiteers then so be it. But with all due respect, I would suggest that you respond to this post again when you get back from Africa and tell us about the ones you meet there. | |||
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| One of Us |
Carmelo In Zimbabwe and several west African countries you can purchace a self guided hunt.- Here in Zimbabwe the Auctions for them are a week on Friday. I have got to pick up the remains of a couple of wanabe big game hunters over the years. Peter Capstick describes the stomp and pull technique of elephants to perfection in "Death in the long Grass". If you have the training, the right attitude, enough bush experience, and have seen a couple of charges and shot a reasonable ammount of Dangerous game then you should be set to go. Zimbabwe of course insists on an apprenticeship of a minimum of 2 years with a stiff written exam and a week long practical exam for those that want a PH licence here but we do offer the facility for those locals and visiting sportsmen who want to "do things their way" Experience shows that on "self guided hunts" in Sapi or Nyakasanga concessions, average buffalo trophy quality is 32" If the fellow hires a PH, even one who doesn't know the area well, Trophy quality rises to 39". Same for elephant. 25lbs vs 38lbs. I think our PH's earn their pay. Operators may (MAY0 get rich, but a PH- never. Live well but will never be rich. | |||
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| not one of us |
Ganyana, You might very well be correct. Had I done my homework I might have investigated self guided hunts in Zimbabwe however my research indicated that Zimbabwe's D/G were a little restless (I mean the people) and that things were a bit to volatile for travel there at the moment. Regardless I am already booked for Namibia, but your point is well taken. I must consider this option should I go again. C | |||
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| one of us |
Carmelo.....you are making a mistake confusing what passes for guides in many areas of the US and the qualities of the professional hunters (PHs) in Africa. The folks in Africa are true professionals in every way. You also have a mistaken concept of what many of them make on a hunt and to fully understand it you need to realize there are several things involved. If a PH has his own company...and his own land then the money he gets for the daily rate is but out of that there are a lot of people to pay....trackers, skinners, and other camp staff plus he needs to pay for permits, his vehicle (did you know that in Zimbabwe the import tax on a vehicle is more than 100%) plus upkeep. In most cases (may not be true where you are hunting in Namibia) the PH is simply an employee of the safari company and as such draws a salary. How much you ask? In Zimbabweif you book a plainsgame hunt at a daily rate of $300 to $350 a day (typical) your PH will get anywhere from $80 to $100 a day and from this he will usually need to pay his tracker and may or may not need to provide his own vehicle but he will typically get fuel. This means that on a 10-day hunt he is grossing $800 to $1,000 ---- hardly getting rich especially as he doesn't work year-round. If you book a hunt for Dangerous Game you can expect to pay anywhere from $600 to $1200 a day and for this an experienced PH can expect to get $125 to $150 a day again not very much when you consider the service provided. Where does the other money go? Most companies don't own their own land so they need to lease it and for dangerous game hunts most of the hunts are on property owned by the govenment so you need to bid on it and it isn't cheap. The other thing is many of these companies also have a black partner who is well-connected politically --- he/she doesn't really contribute anything but they do siphon off money. All PHs aren't perfect but the good ones are almost unbelievable ...but please, please don't go to Africa with a chip on your shoulder or the idea that you can do it as well if not better than they can. Do me a favor it you would? Your first night in camp after the conversation is over and the fire is out take a moment to look up into the southern sky and think how blessed you are to be in Africa. The experience will change your life if you let it. Have a nice trip and come back with a smile on your face. | |||
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| one of us |
Quote: Check the recent thread about "Safari pimps" - apparently there are a few PH's who might be able to accomodate you.  | |||
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one of us |
Carmelo, There's an old saying about it's better for a person to stay silent rather that look a fool. You obviously don't even know the difference between a Professional Hunter and an Outfitter. A PH can be hired for a day for less than most people in Europe or the US earn in a hour, and for that money, he works something like an 18 hour day with no benefits other than sun, dust sweat & danger. The reason most people do the job is that they love it..... it's certainly not for the money. Even the vast majority of outfitters don't make a fortune. You freely admit youself that you haven't even hunted Africa yet.....so why are you such an instant expert? You have made the mistake of looking at the cost of the daily rate and assumed it's all profit. Who do think pays for things like staff wages, road-building, vehicles and maintenance, radios, fuel, buildings, marketing, advertising etc etc etc? You would do well to pay attention to what Ray & Ganyana have posted, rather than insult them. They are both very experienced in their particular fields and know what they are talking about. With regard to your unnecessary comment about the PHs wife, might I suggest that you mention it to your PH...... I'm sure he wouldn't hold it against you as that big old mean faced wounded Buffalo was thundering down on you  If you still think the cost of an African safari is unreasonable then I suggest you remeber another old saying... if you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen. | |||
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| Administrator |
Carmelo, All the PH I have had the pleasure of hunting with have certainly been professional. In every sense of the word. None of them is very rich. Some have been at it for over 30 years. And they all seem to be very good at what they do. And the most amazing thing is - at least in my case - I have found that we have so much in common, that we could have been born in the same village. And all have become my life long friends. I would not even dream of hunting without a PH. Don't get me wrong. There are some who pretend to be PH, who do not even know what the word means. And for everyone one of these, I bet there are dozens of clients - or so called hunters - who have no business being in the bush hunting. | |||
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| not one of us |
Shakari, If I thought the price was so unreasonable I wouldn't be going. However I don't believe they are doing me any favors by taking my money. Also as far as looking like a fool?? To who? You all? C'mon you are all tripping. C | |||
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| <allen day> |
Are you a real huntin' man, or just a troll lookin' to stir things up around here? AD | ||
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one of us |
I suggest you up the medication, the present level sure aint working ... keep taking the tablets | |||
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| not one of us |
Quote: I will keep up my aspirin intake this way the sheer stupidity of your responses doesn't give me a headache | |||
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| one of us |
We talked to one of our PH's rather extensively while hunting in RSA. He told us he makes right around 30k a year and he has to provide his own vehicle. Generally he goes through a vehicles in 3-4years due to traveling between RSA and Tanzania. I guess the roads are pretty extreme. These trucks cost him upwards of 25+k and the loans are generally 18-20% interest. He has to maintain a house while he is gone so he had to pay for that as well. I doubt the 30k included tips but as you can see he wasn't a wealthy person but he loved what he was doing. In general he was one of the nicest people I had ever met anywhere and a professional in every way. The other PH in camp was younger and definately less professional but still a pretty good guy. | |||
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| not one of us |
I can believe that Idaho. There are people here in the US making less. But the reality is the Big guys are profiteers. Your buddy appears to be just a workerbee C | |||
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| one of us |
Allen- CLEARLY this "Carmelo" is,in fact, 100% TROLL. | |||
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| not one of us |
Quote: Ok if you say so. C | |||
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| one of us |
How much money does the average PH make in a year? I did not assume it was a way to get rich, but I figured it was like fishing guides near here, it is a way for them to make a living and do what they love. GTR | |||
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| not one of us |
Quote: GTR, I don't believe that is the case for the PH's in Africa. Many of them do own the land they accomodate you on, but not the land they hunt on. The seasons are longer and they can accomodate many hunters at several hundred dollars a day. Depending on the marketing $$ the Ourfitter spends. C | |||
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| one of us |
Profiteering is a pejorative term for the very rational act of profit maximization. Most of the PHs I have known attempted to maximize profit by assuring success for their hunters, hence repeat customers. Your experiences may differ, if any. | |||
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| one of us |
I started reading this thread - and would telle about the experience I had when I went to Botswana with my brother last year... But then I decided to read the whole thread - and could see that no argument or real life experience from any of us can change the mind of Mr. Carmelo. He has decided on what is the "reality", and it does not even matter that he has never been in Africa himself. | |||
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| one of us |
Carmelo, Do you work for someone or are you in business for yourself? If you do own a business do you operate it to lose money, break even, or make money? You're just jealous because some of us can make money doing what we love to do. Hell. I'd be working for the safari company even if it was just squeakin' me by. Rich Elliott | |||
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one of us |
Professional Hunter Wanted. Young active man interested in low and infrequent pay, to play Bwana in remote bushveld. Must be a proven raconteur and socialite without liver trouble, an expert card player, bartender, caterer, barbecuer, philosopher and African historian. Experience in sanitary engineering, local architecture, labour relations, navigation, medicine and pharmacology, botany, zoology, ichthyology, mineralogy,entomology, butchery, taxidermy, dietetics, optics, photography and radio operation essential. Applicant should speak at least two black African languages fluently, as well as English and one other modern European tongue. A solid knowledge of mechanics, driving, gunsmithing, toxicology, ballistics, tracking, marksmanship, handloading and experience as a professional bodyguard are required. Benefits are: 24-hour day, unlimited fresh air, including rain, sun and dust, no medical, dental or life insurance and no retirement benefits. Applicant should supply his own rifles. Mr Capstick. Never call a PH a guide. A guide is the faceless guy who drives a 60-seater bus along the coast of the French Riviera. Do you know what I have to tell people like you, not to do when you are hunting in Namibia ? Don't argue with your PH. Walk behind me,so I'll get snake bitten first. Don't walk through holes in the ground. Don't poke around holes in trees. Don't try and get a close-up portrait of a black mamba. Don't stand in front of a hornbill's nest hole. Don't carry loose cartridges in your pocket. Don't forget to take the rifle's safety lock off to shoot. Don't put your hand out to point from a moving vehicle, unless you want to leave your hand in the thorn bush. In danger, don't run, face it and shoot. You don't realy care for a PH, we care for you, otherwise we will end-up dead. Waidmannsheil !! | |||
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| not one of us |
Don't equate these flabby old windbags like atkinson or ganyana with Peter Capstick! Peter Capstick was a real hunter. His only flaw was not knowing or understanding the superiority of the 45-70. These wannabee PH's are just that guides, who drive the truck on CANNED HUNTS so some sap will pay them big bucks to shoot a half dead cape buff thay you saps say can't be stopped by a 45-70 HAHAHAHA What a joke! c | |||
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| one of us |
Gentlemen, I've been around quite a lot of PH's in Africa, and every single one of them has been a true professional. None of them are rich, in fact the younger ones barely scrape by. Why do they do it? Because they love being in the veld, sharing a campfire with new friends and old friends, seeing and tracking incredible wildlife, and helping hunters fufill their dreams. Not so they can see how high they can stack their $100 dollar bills. Carmelo, if you take that kind of attitude with you on your trip to Namibia, you probably aren't even going to have that much fun. Go with an open mind and try to see and learn as much as you can. The first safari is the experience of a lifetime. An "I already know this stuff and am only paying you because I have to" mindset will blind you to a lot of the good experiences you will have. | |||
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| not one of us |
Believe I am going to have fun! Becuase I am going to hunt. All I need the PH for is the ride to where the game is at. After that he's just a hindrance. You will say anything to get a client so will all the rest. Your opinions are biased. C Quote: | |||
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| not one of us |
Quote: Mr. Jensen that is not so. In fact I may return from Namibia with a completely different view altogether. I doubt it but it is possible. My opinions on PH's is they are human like the rest. You guys try to paint them as adventurers with a strong bond for hunting comradery. I suspect if they weren't making so much money off of us they wouldn't want any Americans even in Africa. C | |||
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| one of us |
Some people just let others jerk their chains. Me, I've become a GIANT fan of the ignore button. Carmelo, you're #4. Bye. | |||
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| one of us |
This guy Carmelo is a troll of the highest order who has simply used another name to come back and stir up some crap, he is a disadent and a major asshole...You run them off and they return as someone else...I notice like all his kind, he refuses to reveal himself in his profile, much like the Klu Klux Kan, Black Panthers and others he hides behind anomity..He is now off my viewing list. | |||
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| not one of us |
Quote: Thank you old man perhaps now I won't have to read any of your lame responses. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. C | |||
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