quote:

Originally posted by LB:
He would have been better off shooting good old 400 gr. Swift A-frames at 2300

Factory loads in .416 Rem Mag for 400 gr SAF is typically 2400 FPS.

I agree with heavy loads for DG too much velocity can be problematic. Use the bullets at the velocity they were developed for in order to avoid surprises.

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by LB:
My hunting buddy loaded up 350 gr. TSX 416 rounds for his one gun buffalo and plains game safari. He loaded them hot to flatten the trajectory but that was a big mistake. The bullets failed on his buffalo with perfectly placed shots. Took him 9 shots to finally kill the animal. He would have been better off shooting good old 400 gr. Swift A-frames at 2300 fps. 100% dependable. I used the now obsolete frangible 300 gr. A-Square Lion Load in a 375 for my one and only leopard Dead under the tree.

Sounds more like poor shooting to me than failure of the bullet.

My first buffalo was shot at about 40 yards with a 350 TSX in 416 Rigby, loaded to 2700. Hit on point of shoulder quartering to me. DEVASTATING!!! All 4 pedals peeled back perfectly and stayed intact. Close range point of the shoulder like that is about as tough a test as you are likely to get on a buff.

Took a male lion on the same trip a couple days earlier with the same rifle / load. DEVASTATING!!

It's my go to load in that rifle. Taking the same set up again for buff in a few weeks.

My favorite 416 is a 458 :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
My favorite 416 is a 458 :-)

I've got a similar philosophy.

My favorite 375 is a 416!!

I can pound nails with a pipe wrench.

But that does not make it the right tool for the job.

Just saying.

Many years ago I had a discussion with a friend about hunting in Africa.

I told him if it was not for all the silly rules about travelling with guns, I would take 20 odd rifles, of various calibers, from 22 to 700, and try all of them and reach a conclusion on what is best for each animal!

Sadly, we cannot do this.

I have hunted with various 416 rifles, and two 375 rifles.

I have also hunted plains game with various calibers, from 270 to 338.

I have tried different bullets in the same caliber, to see if any is better.

Out of all this, one thing was absolutely certain.

Hit them in the right place, with the right bullet, and animals die.

The saying that tough bullets, like the Barnes X etc, are not good for leopard and lion is just plain bullshit.

I have shot many lions, and many leopards, with Barnes X and our own Walterhog bullets.

Furthest any one of them went was 10 yards!!

And that was a leopard which took off at 100 miles an hour as he got hit, towards the open end of the branch he was on, as he was facing that way, landed on the ground running a few yards and died.

We had a visitor once, who insisted that one 416 caliber is better at killing than another 416!

I must have missed that sort of performance in my almost 40 years of hunting!

On second thought, a .256 Mannlicher might do just fine.

A little leopard hunting / caliber study that shows dead is dead, but that you cannot tell what any game might do after the shot, even when shot properly.

416 Rem with 400gr A-frames accounted for two leopards. One leopard ran 100 yards before plowing into a boulder and regurgitating about 2 lbs of meat he'd just eaten. The other was stone dead before the bullet exited, and his head actually fell into a buried water pail from which he was drinking when I shot.

338 Win Mag with 225gr Partitions also accounted for two leopards. One leopard spun and fell from the leaning pole and was dead within 15 feet of the bait. A year prior, I shot a tom in a tree high on a river bank. He launched out of the tree at the shot, soared 30 or so feet into the sandy river, and made it 150 yards before he succumbed to a wound that originated on the point of the shoulder and exited on his opposite hip.

The only other was with a 375 with 300gr TBBC. The cat was on the ground, sitting broadside, and a neck/shoulder shot rolled him over in his tracks. Never flinched.

I would just shoot a 400 gr. soft at 2400 FPS on everything, I have for years..I like a 350 gr. monolithic as well..My last 4 or 5 buffalo fell to the wonderful 450 gr. Woodliegh softs and solids..It worked perfectly for me every time, its more about bullet placement..I have not made shots on buff over 100 yards as a rule with a couple at a bit over 200 yards and only recall a couple of long shots on Plains Game in buffalo country. but PG on a DG hunt was usually a target of opertunity..and I have to add I could not tell in the field that the 350 shot that much flatter than the 400 although it does on paper, but less than 3 to 5 inches, based on a 3" high at 100 yards zero..

I like to have access to some solids when hunting DG..I like them for frontal shots and Texas heart shots, I still like a soft on top and solids underneath..Im not adamant about it, but I do believe there is a place for them, too many PHs have convienced me, mostly the old timers whom I respect..I have also had good luck with big bores and solids on PG for camp meat..and on the small game the softs tend to react about like solid, they don't normally expand much if at all on smaller species of PG.

I picked up 4 boxes of .416 400gr trophy bonded bear claws from a friend. Those are my bullet for the hunt. I'm working up loads now with Varget. I'm looking for 2350fps min with good accuracy. With Hornady solids my rifle will shoot MOA off the bench. I'll be surprised if I can't get close to that with the TBBC's.

I do plan on taking 10 solids just to have along. Never hurts to have options. No one plans a sketchy followup, but if one is needed, solids seem like the better choice.

The experiences shared here are interesting to read. Will's sound a lot like shooting deer or elk. Sometimes you see them drop, sometimes you get to track them a bit. At any rate, I need to do my part and everything else will work out fine.

All of the paperwork is done and the deposit has been paid. We're in for some fun now.

Thanks for all of the comments and suggestions.

Jeremy

Some PHs do not like overly fast bullets for buff. Increases the chance of shooting through and wounding another buff. Doc Robertson mentions a sordid mess where a high velocity bullet went through a buff and wounded two other buffs.

2300 to 2400 fps should be plenty fast.

Have fun and good hunting.

BH63

The ONLY way one avoids pass through is to make sure the animal being shot is clear of others.

Saeed,

That is one of the initial conversations to have with Lance, our PH. I don't like the idea of shooting into a herd, and won't do it. I occasionally hunt elk when they are herded up late in the season. You just have to be patient and work around the herd to get the one you want clear. I've seen guys not do that and end up with an extra elk that they get to explain to the warden.

Honestly, since this is my first buffalo hunt, a few stalks and some trailing would suit me fine before I shoot one.

Jeremy

Most of our hunts in Tanzania are on bulls that are in herds.

It really is not a problem, as long as you pick your shots.

On several occasions, we have recovered bullets from bulls we have shot that were shot sometime before.

Sh*t happens.

You shoot a buff that is hanging with others. It runs off into thick stuff.

You slip in and finally the tracker/PH spots the bull standing in thick stuff.

The client makes his shot. Unfortunately, there is another bull totally hidden in the thick stuff on the other side of the bull.

Just saying.

Although extra penetration comes in handy when shooting a wounded, running buff in the arse, for a vital triangle shot, a bullet that stops under the hide of the opposite side is what you are after for that first, important shot.

Kevin Robertson in his excellent book, "Africa's Most Dangerous", goes on at length about the problems with overly high velocities in big bores when hunting buff.

As I recall, he thinks the .375 is actually a better buff killer, when it is backed off about 150fps from factory velocities.

BH63

What Saeed has stated. Can't go wrong with Swift A Frames. I shoot 400 grain A frames through my 416 Rem Mag. ( taken 2 ele, one lion, one hippo, and half dozen buff. I used my 375 on my leopard with 300 grain A frames.
A well placed shot is the most critical factor.

How can a bullet be a better killer at lower velocity??

The whole point why I developed my 375/404 because the 375 H&H did not have enough velocity that I wanted.

We did not get a single complaint from all the buffalo we have shot at 2700-2800 FPS

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
How can a bullet be a better killer at lower velocity??

The whole point why I developed my 375/404 because the 375 H&H did not have enough velocity that I wanted.

We did not get a single complaint from all the buffalo we have shot at 2700-2800 FPS

So why develop a cartridge when you could just buy a .378 WBY and get even more velocity?


There will always be a debate as to the perfect balance of bullet weight,
bullet construction, and velocity for any given application.

If you really felt that you needed more velocity to make the .375 a more
effective buffalo gun then perhaps you should use more gun. That’s what the famous PH Mark Sullivan did with great results.

BH63

Why bring a world famous idiot into this conversation?

My buffalo just die with a 375.

His keep charging, even being shot with a 600 NE!

As the old saying goes, the proof of the pudding is in the eating!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Why bring a world famous idiot into this conversation?

Just jerking your chain a bit. LOL

The .375 H&H is well known for it's great penetration. That is probably why it is so effective on DG up to and including elephant.

The only reasonable rationale for wanting even more velocity that I can think of: would be if you were popping buffalo at 100 yards or more. Then the extra velocity would come in handy.

Interestingly enough, the author of "Africa" Most Dangerous", seems to think that to make the .375 a more effective buffalo round, you should user heavier bullets (.350 grs or more) at slightly slower velocities (2100 or so).

But again, if your .375/400 gives a 300 gr bullet velocities in the range of 2900 fps, that is almost identical to the .378 Wby (which was referred to as the "ridiculous .375 Weatherby" by the author of "Africa's Most Dangerous") why not just recommend the .378 Wby as the buffalo round of choice?

Still, whatever makes the shooter feel confident, and that he/she shoots well is probably more important than adding another 2 or 3 hundred fps to the standard loadings of DG rifles.

Good Hunting,

BHH63

Thanks for all the commentary. I settled on a load this weekend. 77gr Varget behind a 400gr TBBC. Got me to a 2415fps average with a 20fps total spread. That load shot a little better then 1.5" at 100 yards for 5 shots. I also had some Hornady 400gr solids loaded with 76gr Varget, and those printed 2" left of the TBBC group. Good enough.

Now, I did have a minor issue. My first shots were off the paper, so I bore sighted again, and shot at 50 yards. Hit the bottom of the target board, so I made an adjustment and was at the top of the black. The black is an 8" circle on these targets. Moved back out to 100 yards, and still top of the black. Adjusted the scope, and now bottom of the target. Hmmmm, that isn't right. I am a bit confused why and go through snugging all the screws, and checking for issues. Shoot again, and that bullet prints right next to the last one at the bottom. Adjust the scope, and now back at the top of the black again.

The moral of the story is that I am a dumbass and forgot that scope has 1/2" clicks, not 1/4".

Jeremy