Males- this year 24 with proposal to increase to 30. Down from 44 (legally) in 2005 (on top of which was 23 taken in Nykasanga by VIP sfaris that year

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:

Originally posted by Honeybadger
I hope he is right! All I can say is I was there (at Chitake Two) at the beginning of October 2010, a few weeks before the attack on Pete Evershed; my information is based on what the current operator there told me, personal observation, and some pretty extensive research. Thanks.[/QUOTE]


Whatever the operator told you and your personal observation are all anecdotal. Please enlighten us as to your "extensive research", such as where, when, why and how it was conducted. Did you apply the scientific method to validate the results of said research, and if so, where, when, why and how was the validation study conducted and by who? Who sponsored (funded) this research you did and is there any university or group affiliation? Has your research been published, and if so where might it be found?

Answering these questions may or may not give you some creds on this forum and ultimately determine your troll status. Including your location would also be nice.

Thanks in advance for your reply.[/QUOTE]

Wow!
I entered this forum with the intention of providing some background information surrounding the unfortunate demise of Pete Evershed to those people who have not personally been to Chitake, where the attack took place.

I certainly was not anticipating a response such as yours.

I am sorry you dismiss my first hand personal observations are merely anecdotal, by which I assume you mean worthless?

If you re-read my post, you will see that I make no claim to any research as "mine".

I am nobody.
I have no professional qualifications, I have no professional experience and I have no professional skills relating to lion research or
conservation. I have never claimed any. However I am able to read, interpret and understand the research of the acknowledged experts in this field who most assuredly HAVE done their work in accordance with your criteria,
and I believe I am not only entitled to my opinion, but to have that opinion treated with respect.

I have neither challenged you, nor, I believe, been rude.

The real question here, I humbly submit, is not where I obtained my information, but why that information bothers you so much?

PS I live in Zimbabwe; close enough to care.

Honeybadger,

I'm no expert either, but from all that I have read on Lion ecology, what you've said here seems to be true.

With that said, since you are new to AR, could you tell us a little about yourself?? Are you a hunter etc??

quote:

Originally posted by Honeybadger:

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:

quote:

Originally posted by Honeybadger:

... Without their pride males to hold and defend the pride's territory, the lionesses have lost their hunting grounds, and any existing cubs were almost certainly killed by incoming males. ,,,

This may sound dumb, but I'm truly curious. Why would the lionesses lose their hunting grounds? Wouldn't those incoming males join up with them, continuing the pride?

Bill Quimby

Bill - Thank you for your comment, and curiosity. There is often a gap between the death of the pride/resident male and the arrival of new nomadic males who are strong enough to hold the area against other males. In addition, once a new male takes over, he will actively seek out and kill any existing cubs, because this causes the lionesses to come into heat so he can mate with them and sire cubs of his own.

It is imperative therefore that pride males be present long enough to allow the cubs that they do sire to reach maturity - a period of at least two years. Male sub-adults then are driven out of the maternal pride by their sire, to wander as nomads until, if they survive, they are strong enough to hold a territory of their own.

Otherwise, lionesses produce litter after litter of cubs which are doomed never to reach maturity, and breeding age. Given that 60% of lion cubs die even if their sire remains in place, it becomes obvious that lion populations are far from secure.
Pride males provide cohesion and stability to the pride; without them, the pride tends to fragment, and lionesses become very stressed and wary in an attempt to avoid new males, and protect any cubs they do have. They try to keep a very low profile.

I hope this helps.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill C:
Greetings Honeybadger, and welcome to the forum.

Are you affiliated with the Predator Research Project in the Valley?

No. Why?

quote:

I am able to read, interpret and understand the research of the acknowledged experts in this field who most assuredly HAVE done their work in accordance with your criteri, and I believe I am not only entitled to my opinion

100% Honeybadger you are, and I read it with interest. I would just like to know who the experts are of which you make reference. Steve Pope of the Predator Research Project, or Norman Monks, or? This would help me and others on the forum understand your perspectives and biases (which we all have, noting this is a hunting forum), and therefore get a read on the accuracy of the information.

There is no wrong answer, but citing expert opinion or research without the source is rather useless, and at this point is is just a matter of opinion (which is fine too if it is based on your personal observations).

I personally would welcome reliable and reputable "researchers" and those associated with no hidden agendas or profit motives to the forum.

Again, I have no ulterior motive, I just want to know how to process the information you relayed. Why the secrecy? Cheers, Bill.

In 1993 the quota for the zambezi valley (including makuti and Charara) was 62 males and 12 females. The following year I cut the quota in Rifa, makuti, nyakasanga charara and sapi bringing the total down to 44 males and 8 female.

I couldn't cut the quota in all areas as there were legl agreements with lease holders that had to be adheared to, but I could (and did) remove all lions on option quota.

Following the debacle of the FIV epidemic and VIP safaris I was able to reduce the quota to 8 males and no females in 1996.

By 2000 the population had recovered to such an extent that the new SCI no 1 and No 2 lions that year came out of the valley.

Funnily enough the safari operators at the time blamed the explosion in wild dog population for the decline in lions - the dog population took off from almost nill until there were several packs of 50-74 roaming the flood plain. We had to take Nyala and bush buck off quota as the dogs ate them all. Prior to 1996 we used to put 30 impala on quota for each fishing camp and each of the nyakasanga and sapi camps to try and hold impala numbers down. By 1998 the dogs had soved that problem and hunting camps had 4-6 impala on quota and we had taken impala off the quota on the fishing camps...a reduction in impala on quota across the valley by some 560!

And yes, the dogs certainly did eat the odd lion. The big pack in Chewore south (74 strong at it's peak) was more than a match for a weakened lion pride.

then distemper got into the dog population and they crashed, rabies and anthrax got into the Hyaena population and they crashed, and the lion numbers built up rapidly.

Conventional wisdom was that you could put 20% of the total lion population on hunting quota each year. I disagreed and favoured shooting 100% of all mature males you could find every third year...but I never won that fight with the safari operators and just because I set the quotas, didn't mean I had a totally free hand. Mana pools was always meant to serve as a reserve in case we got things wrong (quota setting is still not an exact science) - but almost all the lion taken by VIP safaris in '1994 and 1995 (43 total) came out of mana pools.

quote:

The real question here, I humbly submit, is not where I obtained my information, but why that information bothers you so much?

It IS important as to where one obtains his/her information...especially...when one touts it as the truth.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

The real question here, I humbly submit, is not where I obtained my information, but why that information bothers you so much?

It IS important as to where one obtains his/her information...especially...when one touts it as the truth.

Please see below for my reading list; my apologies for taking so long to respond - I was soting it into alphabetical order:-

Bauer, H. & van der Merwe, S. 2003 Inventory of free-ranging lions Panthera leo in Africa.Oryx 38.

Bertram, B.C.R. 1975 Social factors influencing reproduction in wild lions. J. Zool,177

Bygott, J.D. Bertram, B.C.R. & Hanby, J.P. 1979 Male lions in large coalitions gain reproductive advantages. Nature 282

Chardonnet, P. 2002 Conservation of the African lion: Contribution to a status survey.
International Foundation for the Conservation of Wildlife, France, and Conservation Force,USA.

Creel, S. & Creel, N.M. 1997 Lion density and population structure in the Selous Game Reserve: evaluation of hunting quotas and offtake. Afr. J. Ecol.

Del Valle, G.C. 2004 Predator conservation in a world of human use: Socio-conomic,
ecological, and policy aspects of conflict between humans and lions Panthera leo in the Okavango Delta, Botswana. MSc Thesis, University of Kent, Canterbury.

Ferreras, P. & Cousins, S.H. 1996 The use of a Delphi technique with GIS for estimating the global abundance of top predators: the lion in Africa. Unpublished report, International EcoTechnology Research Centre, Cranfield University, UK.

Funston, P.J. Mills, M.G.L. Richardson, P.R.K. & van Jaarsveld,A.S. 2003 Reduced dispersal and opportunistic territory acquisition in male lions (Panthera leo). J. Zool.

Hanby, J.P. & Bygott, J.D. 1987 Emigration of subadult lions. Anim.Behav.

Kat, P.W. 2001 Male movements, territories, and lion mortality in the Okavango region.Proceedings of the National Strategic Conference on Predator Conservation and Management.KCS and DWNP, Gaborone, Botswana.

Kiss, A. 2004 Is community-based ecotourism a good use of biodiversity conservation funds? Trends in Ecology and Evolution.

Kissui, B.M. & Packer C. 2004 Top-down regulation of a top predator: lions in the Ngorongoro Crater. Proc. R. Soc. B

Lewis, D.M. & Alpert, P. 1997 Trophy hunting and wildlife conservation in Zambia. Cons. Biol.

Madhusudan, M.D. 2003 Living amidst large wildlife: livestock and crop depredation by large mammals in the interior villages of Bhadra Tiger Reserve, south India. Environ. Man.

Murombedzi, J.C. 1999) Devolution and stewardship in Zimbabwe's CAMPFIRE programme. J.Intl. Dev.(Policy Arena)

Nowell, K. & Jackson, P. 1996 Wild Cats: Status Survey and Conservation Action Plan. IUCN/SSC Cat Specialist Group, Gland.

Packer, C. & Pusey, A.E. 1983 Adaptations of female lions to infanticide by incoming males.Am. Nat.

Packer, C. 2000 Infanticide is no fantasy. Amer. Anthropol.

Packer, C.,Altizer, S. Appel, M. Brown, E. Martenson, J. O'Brien, S.J. Roelke-Parker, M. Hoffman-Lehmann, R. & Lutz, H. 1999 Viruses of the Serengeti: patterns of infection and mortality in African lions. J. Anim. Ecol.

Packer. C. Whitman, K. Loveridge, A. Jackson, J. & Funston, P. 2006 Impacts of Trophy Hunting on Lions in East and Southern Africa: Recent offtake and future recommendations. Background paper for the eastern and southern African lion conservation workshop, Johannesburg, South Africa, 11-13 January, 2006.

Pusey, A.E. & Packer, C. 1987 The evolution of sex-biased dispersal in lions. Behaviour.

Patterson, B.D. Kasiki,S.M. Selempo,E. & Kays,R.W. 2004 Livestock predation by lions Panthera leo and other carnivores on ranches neighbouring Tsavo National Parks, Kenya. Biol.Cons

Rozemeijer, N. 2003 CBNRM in Botswana. IUCN/SNV CBNRM Support Programme in Botswana.

Rudnai, J. 1973 The social life of the lion. Medical and Technical Publication Co., Lancaster.

Smuts, G.L. Hanks, J. & Whyte, I.J. 1978 Reproduction and social organization of lions from the Kruger National Park. Carnivore.

Saberwal, V. Gibbs, J.P. Chellam, R. & Johnsingh, A.J.T. 1994 Lion human conflict in India. Cons. Biol.

Schaller, G.B. 1972 The Serengeti Lion: A study of Predator-Prey Relations. The University of Chicago Press, Chicago.

Smuts, G.L. Anderson, J.L. & Austin, J.C. 1978 Age determination of the African lion (Panthera leo). J. Zool.

Spong, G. Stone, J. Creel, S. & Bjorklund, M. 2002 Genetic structure of lions (Panthera leo) in the Selous Game Reserve: implications for the evolution of sociality. J. Evol. Biol.

Thresher, P. 1981 The present value of an Amboseli lion. World Anim. Rev.

Troyer, J.L. Pecon-Slattery, J. Roelke, M.E. Black, L. Packer, C. & O’Brien, S.J. 2004 Patterns of Feline Immunodeficiency Virus multiple infection and genome divergence in a free-ranging population of African lions. J. Virol.

ULG Northumbrian Ltd. Economic analysis of commercial consumptive use of wildlife in Botswana. 2001. Leamington Spa. Final report prepared for the Botswana Wildlife
Management Association.

Walpole, M. Karanja, G G, Sitati, N. W. & Leader-Williams N. 2003 Wildlife and People: Conflict and Conservation in Masai Mara, Kenya. Wildlife and Development Series No. 14. International Institute for Environment and Development, London.

Whitman, K., Starfield, A.M., Quadling, H.S. & Packer, C. 2004. Sustainable trophy hunting of African lions. Nature

Wilkie, D.S. & Carpenter, J.F. 1999 The potential role of safari hunting as a source of revenue for protected areas in the Congo Basin. Oryx

Woodroffe, R. & Ginsberg, J.R. 1998 Edge effects and the extinction of populations inside protected areas. Science.

As I have said, I am, and make no claim to be, an expert. I have however had sufficient interest and motivation to read the above, and after careful consideration of the information contained therein, formulated my opinion.

Thank you

quote:

Originally posted by Don Heath:
In 1993 the quota for the zambezi valley (including makuti and Charara) was 62 males and 12 females. The following year I cut the quota in Rifa, makuti, nyakasanga charara and sapi bringing the total down to 44 males and 8 female.

I couldn't cut the quota in all areas as there were legl agreements with lease holders that had to be adheared to, but I could (and did) remove all lions on option quota.

Following the debacle of the FIV epidemic and VIP safaris I was able to reduce the quota to 8 males and no females in 1996.

By 2000 the population had recovered to such an extent that the new SCI no 1 and No 2 lions that year came out of the valley.

Funnily enough the safari operators at the time blamed the explosion in wild dog population for the decline in lions - the dog population took off from almost nill until there were several packs of 50-74 roaming the flood plain. We had to take Nyala and bush buck off quota as the dogs ate them all. Prior to 1996 we used to put 30 impala on quota for each fishing camp and each of the nyakasanga and sapi camps to try and hold impala numbers down. By 1998 the dogs had soved that problem and hunting camps had 4-6 impala on quota and we had taken impala off the quota on the fishing camps...a reduction in impala on quota across the valley by some 560!

And yes, the dogs certainly did eat the odd lion. The big pack in Chewore south (74 strong at it's peak) was more than a match for a weakened lion pride.

then distemper got into the dog population and they crashed, rabies and anthrax got into the Hyaena population and they crashed, and the lion numbers built up rapidly.

Conventional wisdom was that you could put 20% of the total lion population on hunting quota each year. I disagreed and favoured shooting 100% of all mature males you could find every third year...but I never won that fight with the safari operators and just because I set the quotas, didn't mean I had a totally free hand. Mana pools was always meant to serve as a reserve in case we got things wrong (quota setting is still not an exact science) - but almost all the lion taken by VIP safaris in '1994 and 1995 (43 total) came out of mana pools.

Don
I would be interested in hearing your opinion /comments on the Lion population in the Save Conservancy. I have had a number of conversations with PHs, owners and wildlife gurus and all seem to think that they have some major issues looming in terms of over population. All of them, without exception feel that some Lionesses should be added to quota as well as an increase possibly in Lion. I certainly have seen marked decreases in certain parts of the Conservancy of Warthog, Kudu and even Wildebeast . Buffalo however seem not to have been affected(I may be corrected on this). I would be very interested in your opinions what would be the best way to manage the Lion population over the entire conservancy.

Frosty...depends on your objectives. Park's stated objective is to maintain cat populations at 80% of carrying capacity in Safari areas and as close to 100% as feasable within the national parks.

We know that at population densities below c70% of carrying capacity you cannot get mature leopard on bait in daylight...so we had an automatic safe guard there against over hunting.

On the other hand, if you wish for maximum sustainable yield...you want to maintain the cat populations at about 50% of carrying capacity...which is why we alowed night hunting on private land and communal land.

So, re Save- what is the objective? I would assume that it is maximum sustainable yield...After all, it is a private concern that should be profitable (unlike the national parks mandate which makes no alowance for parks to be financially self suficient let alone to show a profit).

What is the carrying capacity of Save? Probably one hell of alot more than you think. My father shot over 200 lions in what is now Matetsi unit 3 in the years 1953-1955. Buck Du fries shot over 500 lion on his place in the Gwaai over 25 years... Save has no means of outside recruitment, it is just the internal population...thats it.

Personally I favour shooting all mature males every 3rd year. Why loose prize trophies in pride fights? And the new incomming males will kill the cubs and than have time to raise two litters before they are fully mature, nice trophies and bang! It also safeguards against creeping over hunting.

Thanks Don

Your suggestions sound workable. I beleive that the main concern within the save is simply that certain species are being hit hard by the growing Lion population(not just males) . When operators are balancing the cost of the impact that the Lions are having on populations against the returns the Lions are providing, the number is coming up red. As you correctly said, the Save is a private concern and therefore the numbers need to come up black.

Thanks for the comments.

quote:

Originally posted by Don Heath:.

Personally I favour shooting all mature males every 3rd year. Why loose prize trophies in pride fights? And the new incomming males will kill the cubs and than have time to raise two litters before they are fully mature, nice trophies and bang! It also safeguards against creeping over hunting.

First heard of this idea from a PH around eight years ago. Certainly sounds like a level headed approach for quota on Lion.
Could you kill the same amount as if shooting a seasonal quota or more?

the proposal to put lion on quota every third year and allow 100% offtake of all fully mature males (Skull measurement over 23" if I recall to be eexportable was tabled by Parks at the ZATSO AGM in 1996. WWF backed the idea and allocated a member of staff to look into it further, but it ran into the legal stumbling block that operators had been given guaranteed annual quotas when they 'bought' the concessions on the auctions.

The follow up study indicated that total lion off take would , in fact go up if harvested on a rotational cycle, but would take two cycles (6 years) to impliment properly and get things running smoothly. The problem was, the leases were five year and areas adjacent to each other came up for re auction in different years and one would need to co-ordinate the harvest accross each sub population (eg Zambezi Valley and escarpment including private and communal lands) would have to have lion on quota in the same year for it to work.

Parks could have introduced this system in Mat north following the almost total ban on lion hunting there following Out of Africa's slaughter of the lion population and parks mismanging the quotas. They let the oportunity slip.

One of the great dangers with quota setting is getting things 'a little' wrong. If you are far out, it will show quickly...if you are a little out the numbers will gradually build up (ok) or slowly decline....but no safari operator accepts a cut in quota gladly and greater and greater effort is made to compensate and PH's are cussed for not hunting hard enough if they come up empty handed, until it is plainly obvious to all that there has been a minor ecological disaster...as happened in matetsi a few years back.

The advantage of Save over a parks area like matetsi is that each pride is likely to be know so you have a 'known' number of mature males and females to work out your quotas from. In parks and communal lands it was usually a wild scientific thumb suck disguised as far as possible in techno speak to conceal the fact...eg we have cut the number of lions on quota to 17% of the population to allow the population to grow (problem is, we have no idea how big the population really is so the quota is 17% of a thumbsuck....typically for the communal lands- I agreed with the operators and council on the numbers and then put in the percentage offtake and calculated back to the population estimate , knowing full well that at least half the animals shot really came out of the adjacent parks areas anyway!