Gents:
It's time for another trip or two to Africa and I'm wondering if there are any fair chase lion hunts in South Africa? A large property where the hunting is walk, spot, stalk. I don't want to drive up and shoot in a small pasture. Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Cal

Cal

There are properties in South Africa that are large enough to hunt lion without it being confined to a small area. The problem is that very very few areas(if any other than surrounding Kruger) will have naturally occurring lion that breed and consider the area their home range. In most cases properties are stocked with game and this includes Lion. Your more reputable owners and operators will stock large areas ie 20,000ha whilst the less reputable stock , as you put it, pastures. I am sure some of the SA operators on here could point you the way of the bigger properties with less of the "confined feel"

Cal,

Areas like the Timbavati that have an unfenced border with Kruger canoffer you the kind of hunt you want and if you kill a lion it will probably be a monster. The price though is rediculous. I don't remember that exact price I was quoted recently but I do remember thinking that the lion would be as expensive as a full bag 21 day Masailand safari plus trophy fees.

Mark

I know a PH who hunts a large area boardering the kruger NP. The lions are wild and come out of the kruger. Hunting is done over bait but I am sure you can stalk if you like. All clients who hunted with him were very happy.
pm me if you need more infos!!

quote:

Fair Chase Lion in South Africa?

TAM Safaris offers exclusively "free range" rion hunting in SA. I met with them at HSC and they confirmed that all hunts were indeed "Free Range".

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Cal,

Areas like the Timbavati that have an unfenced border with Kruger canoffer you the kind of hunt you want and if you kill a lion it will probably be a monster. The price though is rediculous. I don't remember that exact price I was quoted recently but I do remember thinking that the lion would be as expensive as a full bag 21 day Masailand safari plus trophy fees.

Mark

Hi Mark,

One of my investors in the Luangwa is involved with this and the last quote I got was $110,000 all in. Includes beverages.

Andrew

Cal, check out Duke Safaris, John may have some large area.

Mike

They hunt wild lions in the Pilanesburg National Park. Also, in met some guys in Reno from the RSA. They had a massive piece of property. 180,000 acres comes to mind. They point blank told me that they had BOTH wild lions and canned lions. One of my friends confirmed this.

I have their brochure at home. I am traveling today. When I get home, I will find the name and post it.

Gents:
Thanks for your informative and timely replies. I look forward to more. I have info from Harloo Safaris and Andrew McLaren sent two lengthy emails to me. You guys know of these outfitters/PHs? I will read, process, and digest all that is presented here.
Again, my thanks.
Cal

Andrew,

That sounds right as the price the Timbavati gets. PH fees are on top of this. Five or six years ago Garry kelly offered this to me all in at $54,000. Talk about inflation!

Mark

Spear Safaris offers free range lion in RSA.. They are neighbors to Timbavati. I've seen some brutes there the three times I've hunted with them. Some buff that will blow your mind too.

Ernest visits this site every now and then.. PM him and I'm sure he'd get you some info. He goes by Spear.

They are a great outfit run by great folks.

Larry Shores:

I've never hunted there, but over the past 25 years or so, I've driven all of Pilanesberg National Park's roads that are open to the public. The entire place is only 193 square miles, or less than 14 miles by 14 miles. The country is open enough that I would be surprised if it has even one mature male lion that the park's biologists don't know about and have not given a name.

Bill Quimby

About 8 years ago I hunted plains game in Pilanesberg Park with CVS safaris. We had lions in camp every night that were whoppers. Hunts were conducted for lions in the park but you would have a naturalist with you to approve the lion you saw. We saw two male just after a kill and believe me they were wild lions. There was a lot of helicopter activity and I think close tabs were being kept on the cats and black rhino. We hunted in the back country of the park where only the concession holder had access. We always had a ranger with us.
The going rate then if I remember was about $50K for a lion and there was a waiting list.

I have toured the Park twice while visiting Sun City. Both times I was told about the hunting. Never tried it myself. I did think about it on one of the trips. I didn't try it as the wife got very ill.

They swore it was strict fair chase of wild animals. Personally, I have no idea. Just passing along what i was told.

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
About 8 years ago I hunted plains game in Pilanesberg Park with CVS safaris. We had lions in camp every night that were whoppers. Hunts were conducted for lions in the park but you would have a naturalist with you to approve the lion you saw. We saw two male just after a kill and believe me they were wild lions. There was a lot of helicopter activity and I think close tabs were being kept on the cats and black rhino. We hunted in the back country of the park where only the concession holder had access. We always had a ranger with us.
The going rate then if I remember was about $50K for a lion and there was a waiting list.

As I said earlier, I would be surprised if there is an adult male lion on Pilanesberg that doesn't have a name. To that, I'll add the park's white and black rhino.

In terms of wild lion habitat, Pilanesberg's 193 square miles is not that large, especially in that type of open terrain with lots of roads and the availability of a helicopter.

When you consider its limited "back country" for lions, it's comparatively small.

Which begs the next question: where wildlife managers decide when and exactly which lion they will have removed, where is the line between "wild" and "canned" drawn?

Shouldn't the word "wild" indicate that an animal is not closely monitored and managed by humans?

Bill Quimby

Possible but doubtfull.

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
About 8 years ago I hunted plains game in Pilanesberg Park with CVS safaris. We had lions in camp every night that were whoppers. Hunts were conducted for lions in the park but you would have a naturalist with you to approve the lion you saw. We saw two male just after a kill and believe me they were wild lions. There was a lot of helicopter activity and I think close tabs were being kept on the cats and black rhino. We hunted in the back country of the park where only the concession holder had access. We always had a ranger with us.
The going rate then if I remember was about $50K for a lion and there was a waiting list.

As I said earlier, I would be surprised if there is an adult male lion on Pilanesberg that doesn't have a name. To that, I'll add the park's white and black rhino.

In terms of wild lion habitat, Pilanesberg's 193 square miles is not that large, especially in that type of open terrain with lots of roads and the availability of a helicopter.

When you consider its limited "back country" for lions, it's comparatively small.

Which begs the next question: where wildlife managers decide when and exactly which lion they will have removed, where is the line between "wild" and "canned" drawn?

Shouldn't the word "wild" indicate that an animal is not closely monitored and managed by humans?

Bill Quimby

there is no difference between wild and canned when the biologist knows them all and pre-approves which one you shoot. and since most of the park is crisscrossed with roads and tour cars/buses, how much "back country" can there be? not to mention that the park is fenced. of course having a chopper to find your pre-approved lion should cut down a lot on hunting days needed to find your quarry in the back country.

Cal,

Maybe you are looking in the wrong place? What about somewhere like CAR where the Lions are tracked up and the PH's there are expert at calling.

The only disadvantage is that these Lion are not heavy maned? If that matters?

Andrew

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Cal,

Maybe you are looking in the wrong place? What about somewhere like CAR where the Lions are tracked up and the PH's there are expert at calling.

The only disadvantage is that these Lion are not heavy maned? If that matters?

Andrew

Now that sounds like a much better idea!

Brett

There might be a very slight chance of one actualy shooting a wild lion in South Africa.

But, for me, I would go somewhere else if I really wanted to hunta wild lion.

DEar Guests ..


THIS might be interesting !!

Cheers, Peter
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“Canned” Lion hunting in Zambia? Written by Phil C. Minnaar

Canned Lion hunting is a national disgrace for South Africa with nothing more and nothing less that can be said about the subject. The Professional hunters Association of Zambia expresses their strongest regret against canned lion hunting and urge other organizations to start taking action against it so that something so inhumane and shameful does not happened in our own country. “Canned” lion hunting (defined as a “hunter” shooting a trophy lion from a captive bred source) is a big industry in South Africa. The breeders provide the animals, they are put in a fenced enclosure, and the “hunter” is then given the opportunity to shoot the animal. Alternatively, the lion is drugged, driven to a “wildish” area without the hunter knowing exactly where he is and then he is given the same opportunity. Or she, a lot of hunters are women.

South Africa and Namibia’s trophy hunted lions are not in the same category as the rest of African’s lions and if Zambia starts with the canned lion hunting atrocities, the international market value of our wild lion population will drop drastically and they will be reclassified as non free ranging lions whether they are hunted in a GMA (game management area) or not. Canned lion hunting is normally practiced by only a small group of game farmers who care less about our wildlife recourses and are only interested in personal gain. Subsequently, this practice typically provides little or no benefits to the local population and communities.

Namibia’s wild lion populations were reclassified recently following the same scenario and this action is irreversible once declared. Not only will the status of our wild lion population change internationally, but the iconic image of our Professional hunters as some of Africa’s last, legendary hunting guides will be lost forever. Thus, the lions will suffer together along with an African hunting experience that only Zambia can offer. This will have a strong, negative ripple effect on Zambia’s hunting status, as we will be branded by anti-hunting organizations as a nation with no ethical values towards wildlife. Ultimately, our local communities who are so desperately in need of investment to alleviate poverty will suffer as well. Can we, as a nation, afford to be so shortsighted and ignore the flickering of red lights that ultimately spell disaster for an important component of our national economy, as well as our wildlife heritage?

Dr. Paula White, an internationally recognized and respected wildlife biologist, has studied Zambia’s lion populations for the past 8 years and expresses serious concerns at the importation of captive bred lions from South Africa. Dr. White emphasizes that our wild lion populations are perfectly adapted to their environments, and that the foreign gene pool and bloodlines of captive bred lions from other regions in Africa will have a negative impact on existing populations by reducing local genetic adaptations. Captive bred lions also bring with them the possibility of introducing diseases to our wild lions. Behaviorally, captive bred lions are often more dangerous than wild lions because they are inexperienced hunters yet have little fear of man, making them a greater risk for becoming livestock killers and man-eaters. Thus, in addition to the negative socio-economic impacts on the hunting industry that would occur if canned lion hunting is established in Zambia, there is serious ecological threat that importation of captive bred lions will permanently devastate Zambia’s wild lion populations.

As chairman of the Professional Hunters Association of Zambia, I called and held an extraordinary meeting on the 29th of January 2011 in Reno, Nevada, United States of America during the annual Safari Club International convention. The extraordinary meeting took place with 5 executive members and 11 full members present and therefore constitutes a full quorum on the issue of “Canned Lion Hunting in Zambia”. It was unanimously condemned and rejected by a majority of 11 to 2 members. In attendance was also Dr. Paula White, Director of the Zambia Lion Project. Safari Club International was represented by Mr. John Boretsky, SCI’s Director for Hunters and Guides of Africa.

“Canned Lion hunting of any form is strongly condemned by the Professional Hunters Association of Zambia, its current committee and the majority of its members. We are bound by our organization’s constitution and our code of conduct, the Zambia Wildlife Authority’s Code of Conduct for Professional Hunters, the Wildlife Act, No 12 of 1998 and our own integrity. We will at all times exercise ethical hunting practices and in a highly professional manner. Our members will always strive to practice the “fair chase” hunting ethics and if any members are found guilty of any malpractice hunting methods, the organization will not hesitate to use all legal steps for a conviction and will exercise all of its recourses for maximum punishment, even if it does mean the expulsion of members from the organization”.

Quote by fairgame:
Hi Mark,
One of my investors in the Luangwa is involved with this and the last quote I got was $110,000 all in. Includes beverages.

Andrew
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Fairgame,you have stated here on AR that your African Hunting Gazette subscription was pulled because of your stance on canned lion. It seems you have no problem with their money when it funds your operation.

quote:

Originally posted by Dog Man:
Quote by fairgame:
Hi Mark,
One of my investors in the Luangwa is involved with this and the last quote I got was $110,000 all in. Includes beverages.

Andrew
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Fairgame,you have stated here on AR that your African Hunting Gazette subscription was pulled because of your stance on canned lion. It seems you have no problem with their money when it funds your operation.

Dogman - No disrespect, but the Timbavati is not CANNED lion hunting at all!

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Dog Man:
Quote by fairgame:
Hi Mark,
One of my investors in the Luangwa is involved with this and the last quote I got was $110,000 all in. Includes beverages.

Andrew
----------------------------------------------
Fairgame,you have stated here on AR that your African Hunting Gazette subscription was pulled because of your stance on canned lion. It seems you have no problem with their money when it funds your operation.

Dogman - No disrespect, but the Timbavati is not CANNED lion hunting at all!

Aaron,
Would this be a place you would hunt lion in if it were priced comparatively with Zambia?

Dogcat (not Dogman)

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Dog Man:
Quote by fairgame:
Hi Mark,
One of my investors in the Luangwa is involved with this and the last quote I got was $110,000 all in. Includes beverages.

Andrew
----------------------------------------------
Fairgame,you have stated here on AR that your African Hunting Gazette subscription was pulled because of your stance on canned lion. It seems you have no problem with their money when it funds your operation.

Dogman - No disrespect, but the Timbavati is not CANNED lion hunting at all!

Aaron,
Would this be a place you would hunt lion in if it were priced comparatively with Zambia?

Dogcat (not Dogman)

Dogcat - Sorry about that, I was not paying attention.

Would I hunt the Timbavati for lion, if the price was not $150,000 plus? Absolutely, positively!!

quote:

Originally posted by Dog Man:
Quote by fairgame:
Hi Mark,
One of my investors in the Luangwa is involved with this and the last quote I got was $110,000 all in. Includes beverages.

Andrew
----------------------------------------------
Fairgame,you have stated here on AR that your African Hunting Gazette subscription was pulled because of your stance on canned lion. It seems you have no problem with their money when it funds your operation.

Dog Man,

Wrong end of the stick mate. My objection was to the De Klerk advertising of the put and take Lion within a small fenced enclosure. The Timbavati where one free ranging Lion is hunted every year is none of the above. The Lion is identified as having been kicked out of the pride and is on a downward spiral.

I have little objection if Lions are hunted on large fenced properties and are indigenous to the area, or established populations.

In Zambia there are two such properties (Pia Manzi and Ndevu) which are 50,000 acres in extent and Lions/Leopard seem to come and go as they please. The Save and Lemco estates of Zimbabwe are another example.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
There might be a very slight chance of one actualy shooting a wild lion in South Africa.

But, for me, I would go somewhere else if I really wanted to hunta wild lion.

My thoughts exactly!

For what its worth when I was there the hunting concession in Pilanesberg bares no resemblance to the tourist area. It is very rocky and hilly with poor roads. I found it to be a fun, sastisfying plains game hunt that gives you an opportunity to be close to members of the big five in a large area. Pretty cool to have lions and elephant outside your tents each night and to get chased by a black rhino. We stayed in tents which had to be removed at the conclusion of the hunt. Only the cooking area was permanent and if I remember it was the remains of an old building. It was wilder than any thing I experienced elsewhere in SA. Chasing a mountain reedbuck there will have you very tired at days end.