Here is another topic that could generate a nice long thread...

What African animal is the toughest? Both Plains game and Dangerous game...

My take for plains game is the gemsbok hands down. I shot one once 4 times through the heart and lungs with a 7mm Rem Mag with 175 gr partitions, and I still chased him 2 miles, and had to put him down with a .22 3 times in the brain.

For DG, I think an angry buff is the toughest, but I don't have experience with Elephant or Rhino...

What do you think?

Joel

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Slate & Associates, LLC
The Safari Specialists
http://www.slatesafaris.com

Joel,

My vote goes to the sable and the buffalo, no question about it at all.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

I agree with Alf on this for the most part...

But I will say the Buffalo has a tendency to live beyond the ability of most animals or so it seems..but again a heart shot will kill him pretty quick....

Plainsgame are as Alf says, die when hit properly....Sable have a tough reputation but I think that is because most hunters tend to shoot them too high because of their build....Eland can be very tough, mostly due to size I suspect, but again a good shot puts them down...

Bottom line don't let them get pumped full of adrenaline with an iffy shot. That is what makes them hard to kill...I THINK!!

My post has no real substance, just making conversation with an unanswerable question.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I was about to say sable based on my single experience but I think Ray hit the nail on the head. My first shot was taken when the bull was quartering away and it hit about half way up the body in the short ribs. Knocked him down but he was up quickly running....2nd shot went into his back hip and exited by the shoulder but again was a little high however it knocked him down and he got back up quickly. Ran about 100 yards and slowed down to a walk. A shot to the shoulder dropped him. If I had been shooting something less than my .375 it might have been a long chase with similar hits. Once again I agree 100% with the Idaho Kid.

Alf,

You are right of course.

But, in my own experience, sable seem to take longer to bring down and kill with the same shot placement as a kudu for instance.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

I agree with Saeed. Sable have displayed exceptional vitality to me, as have Oryx.
.416 Rem and .375 used, respectively.

4 shots to the lungs and heart and ran two miles right.

The only animal I've seen that was hit perfectly and wouldn't go down was a Zebra. My wife shot it through the heart with a 30-06 with 180 Gr. Trophy Bonded. It was dead but refused to go down. After following it into the heavy stuff, it took a 416 solid through the right hip, exited through the middle of the chest. Maybe 10 minutes later, a 416 solid went through both shoulders, and it finally went down.

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JD

jrslate,
do you mean you shot him through the heart and lungs four (4) times with 175 grain Partitions and your gemsbock run for 2 miles?
do you mean you had to shoot not once, not twice, but three times in a row with a .22 in the head to kill it?
come on...
you must have run out of bullets on that safari...
Montero.

For plains game, I'd say blue wildebeest can soak up a lot of punishment without showing ill effects (before they drop dead).

For DG, buffalo have historically been given the title of toughest beast.

The above designations are valid even when the animals are hit properly.

George

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Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

In my estimate the various pygmy antelope can be very tough to hunt. With these animals, a game plan is nice to have, but luck rules.

I think any of the dangerous game species can be tough, but to me lions are the most time-consuming and difficult.

AD

Not my personal opinion but the South African Meat hunters assoc. Voted the Blue Wildebeest the hardest animal to drop of all plains game.

I have seen several Gemsbok whacked with multiple solid hits perfectly placed which travelled a very long way, same with sable and even Zebra. Kudu die easy, eland are big but not really "tough" considering their size from what I have seen. I did see one eland shot several times with good hits from a 30/06 if it was the only Eland I had ever seen killed I would have thought they were the toughest of all.

I think that an opinion on this really needs to come from people who have seen lots of game killed. Anyone can spine hit an animal and see it fold up believeing they die easy, or shoot another to far back and believe they are really tough.

However when you see dozens of each killed you begin to have enough resolution to see trends. I am getting older now and see the value of this greater resolution when forming my opinions. I rarely form an opinion anymore from seeing something only a couple times. jj

JJHACK.....well said and as always a moderating voice. Also, it seems as if we are getting a few strident voices on the Forum...when jrslate posted I assumed he meant those shots were in the area of the heart etc and from killing domestic hogs I know how careful shot placement must be in the skull to kill a pig.

For those of those who love big-bores I'm sure you've read a lot of the writing by one of my heros...Elmer Keith...and I took some of the stuff he wrote with a grain of salt especially when he talked about animals getting away with shots thru the heart etc but were never recovered. I always wondered how he knew they were shot thru the heart if they were not recovered.

DB Bill I often wondered about that my self the one I rember the most old Elmer saying he shot a coyote with a 150 fmj 06 in the lungs and it ran away. Then he went to say he shot it 2 weeks later and cut it open and saw the scars from the first shot. I guess Old Elmer just couldn't see him self missing.

Bill, I've never found African game to be nearly as tough as ol' Elmer Keith portrayed it to be. In fact the more I hunt, the less regard I have for his opinions altogether.

Possibly it's poetic justice, but his written escapades in Africa did nothing to enhance the reputation of his beloved big bores in my eyes. It seems like everything he shot with any cartridge ran off and created no end of trouble. I wonder what the trouble was, anyway?

AD

The occurences I referenced were game like elk and mule deer and his lack of trust for any bore size smaller than .333. It's been awhile since I read his African book and the thing I remember most about it are the beautiful pics of his rifles...I always wondered how an ol' cowpoke like Elmer amassed such a collection. If it weren't for the fact the Elmer autographed it for me I probably would have sold it a long time ago.

Allen,

His bullets were probably not up to snuff.
Also, damned few African mammals give up the ghost as easily as mule deer or pronghorns.

George

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Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

JJ, I'm glad you cleared that up. From my experiences hunting with you, I was just about to say small monkeys were just about the toughest thing to kill. Guess you just needed more rifle- is that what the 458 Lott is for? -
I would have to say the hardest to kill are the ones that are hardest to hit. For me I guess that means charging Steenbok! -LOL Sheister

In my experience I would have to vote for wildebeest. I think the damn things are just too stupid to know they've been shot.

As far as dangerous game goes, the obvious choice is buffalo. However, look at the thread we've had on the gut-shot lion. Just about any animal, if poorly hit the first time, can get his adrenaline up and cause no end of trouble.

jrslate,

Earlier today when I saw this post, oryx was the first animal that came to mind. It still is. I think we've had more oryx that either got back up and got away or took more hits than any other species we hunt in Ethiopia. They are tough. A lot of this comes from the way they are built. It's easy (even likely if it's your first oryx) to shoot a bit too high just missing the lungs but close enough to the spine to knock the animal down. Wildebeest are built the same way. For that matter so are mt. goats but that's another continent.
Rich Elliott

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Ethiopian Rift Valley Safaris

P Dog Shooter and Mondero,

I wasn't lying...4 heart/lung shots and that much running. It really happened. Next time, ask before you try to disprove something somebody says. Most of the posts on this forum are by people with real world experience, not people who just read Peterson's Hunting or recite what they hear at the gun shop.

I would also say the Blue Wildebeest is very very tough.

Joel

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Slate & Associates, LLC
The Safari Specialists
http://www.slatesafaris.com

Was it Lou Hallomore who wrote the book "In The Salt" where he talks about "the money line"....above it or behind it and you wind up with a long follow-up? As I recall those lines were pretty far forward and low.

Bill,

"In The Salt" was an interesting book, except for those silly "money" lines he had.

One of the boys here said after reading that book:

" I am glad the animals we shoot have not read this book, otherwise they might not have died!"

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

jrslate,
It is because of real world experience that I would consider the chances of your gemsbock running for two (2) miles after being shot four (4) times through the heart and lungs with 7mm 175 grain Partitions to be extremely slim, to say the least.
I would not dare to call you nor anybody else in this Forum a liar, but I do have a reasonable doubt that your perception of the facts might have been slightly distorted.
Like Saeed's friend, I am glad the animals I shoot cannot read this forums, otherwise they might not die.
Anyway I would like to apologize if I happened to be offensive, and ask you not to be so unforgiving. Please understand that English is not my first language and that my sense of humour is probably slightly different to yours.
Montero.

Some animals seem to take more than others. In my (so far single) safari adventure the blue wildebeest, the zebra and the oryx were pretty hardy. They all die of course -- but either you have to be right on to the vitals or they just take a relatively long time to go otherwise which means multiple shots or some hiking or both.

I think JJ hit the nail on the head. Actually my experience on my first African trip was that African game must be really tough, but my second trip everything went down to one well placed shot. The big difference was knowing the anatomy for the second trip. That Zebra that my wife shot through the heart just did not want to die.

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JD

Montero,
Sorry I was abrasive. I wouldn't have believed that the gemsbok could run that far either, but I remember the chase, and I remember running out of ammunition at my last shot and waiting for the truck to show up so I could pull up alongside the thing to finish it off with the .22. I was extremely curious how it could happen, so I took a lot of time dissecting the gemsbok afterwards to see the path of the bullets. I was very impressed. I was also very impressed with the penetration the 175 gr. partition gave me. My last shot was up the backside at 300 yards, and it penetrated the length of the animal and I found it against the hide on the front.

Once again, sorry for the attitude.

Joel

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Slate & Associates, LLC
The Safari Specialists
http://www.slatesafaris.com

From what little I saw I would rate the Blue Wildebeast as a tough, intelligant, and sporty animal.

I only had a few stalks on them but they were the wariest beasties I saw there, tough too. Cleaned and mounted their capes are striking, mine is right by the window to catch the morning light. The irridescent blue's in the cape are beautiful......10

I don't think I can give you a TOUGHEST animal for Plains Game.

IF you hit them right with the first shot, they ALL die quite quickly.

IF you hit them "wrong", you will have a chase on your hands no matter how big or small they are.

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May I be half the man my dog thinks I am.

I cast my vote with Saeed, the Sable, and Buffalo! 375 H&H minimum!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 08-22-2001).]

As I read all your answers, a test I did came to mind.

I took a 5 gallon bucket of water filled it full of water and shot it at 25 yards with a 338 win mag with good quality 225gr hunting bullets. The bucket blew the lid off and tipped over and the rest of the water spilled out, and there was an enterence and exit hole.

Next I took my 450 watts 300gr and did the same test and the water blew 10 feet in the air in the bucket was reduced to little 6" pieces.

My point is hitting an animal with enough energy to cause enough hydrolic shock to damage the large animals is the key to killing them. When you reduce that for what ever reason bad shot, bad bullet, hit a bone, to far away, wrong kind of bullet or the gun you picked does not pack enough punch they become hard to kill. Also remember that it is never perfect that is what makes the hunt exciting and a story we want to share. THANKS RNS

RNS,
A much closer approximation to lung tissue would be on a 5gal. bucket of joint compound, not water. The effect of even very big bullets is far less dramatic.

Blue wildebeest just don't seem to react to a bullet strike outside the central nervous system, even on solid heart/lung shots. They're dead, they just don't know it!

George

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Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!