I was discussing with an operator about a safari for next year.
Despite the relatively high daily rate he insists to charge me $ 500 for the transfers to and from the airport.
The same thing happened to me many times in Zimbabwe, where all the outfitters they charge at least 600 $ for the transfers to and from Harare. I think these expenses should be included in the cost of the safari and not added. Also because otherwise how could we reach the camp? With the taxi?
What do you think about?

Nothing is free for a paying client !!!

I have never been charged extra for transfer from the airport to the camp if by car.

Only time we got charged was when we needed to charter to the camp.

Saaed, for my experience you are a very lucky men.

Mario,

I think transfer costs are quite frankly bullsh*t and I think African operators have no idea how much hunters find them to be annoying and absurd.

Sure they the operator has costs. But even if it is a 1/2 day there and a 1/2 day back $300-600 is ludicrous.

Now I am sure some will say but hey you are consuming a day of his time so therefore it should be close to the daily rate.

I would say nope...he is incurring no other of the add'l costs and it is just as much a requirement for him to get clients as it is a requirement for you to get there.

quote:

Originally posted by Mario:
I was discussing with an operator about a safari for next year.
Despite the relatively high daily rate he insists to charge me $ 500 for the transfers to and from the airport.
The same thing happened to me many times in Zimbabwe, where all the outfitters they charge at least 600 $ for the transfers to and from Harare. I think these expenses should be included in the cost of the safari and not added. Also because otherwise how could we reach the camp? With the taxi?
What do you think about?

You are right . Sometimes the prices are ridiculus. If you book a whole hunt the transport (by car) should be included.

yes this is exactly my opinion

It costs the same to run a vehicle up and down the road if there is one paying client in it or 3. Since 3 hunters would split it; whereas 1 hunter would pay it himself it amounts to a small discount to the party.
An outfit could play the average and include it, but there would be some who would feel like they were subsidizeing the single hunters.

mario, maybe some perspective on your concern from an outfitters perspective:

With the cost of fuel and regular services on a Land Cruiser, the current cost of just maintaining such a vehicle is around $ 0.58 per mile. A stock standard new Land Cruiser, (without being kitted out for hunting, in other words, without a winch, hunting rig on back, extra spare tyres, cost roughly US$ 60 000. If you have it converted to a double cab, that is another US$ 10 000.
taking above into consideration, if I have to go and fetch a client in Windhoek, and I am in the Caprivi, and also take him back, the fuel/ services costs alone, runs to US$ 1 800. That is the cost, and does not take into consideration what it cost us to aquire a vehicle like that. Remember, our interest rates are around 10% on vehicles, if you are a VERY good client with the bank. So to have a Double cab cruiser mostly standing in camp as a back-up, and client drop off and collect vehicle, will cost you another US$ 1 000-00 a month at least, and that over 60 months with a hefty deposit of around 20%...
So now you may understand why outfitters would like to recuperate a bit of this money. Or we could just increase the dayfees....?

All that being said, I normally charge no fee at all if I can pick you up at Katimá Mulilo's airport, a nominal fee if I have to fetch clients from Vic Falls or Kasane (to cover cross border charges mostly),and around US$ 750 from Windhoek. If I am in Windhoek at the start of a hunt, and need to drive back to the Caprivi anyways, no problem, and no charge.

Unless an air charter is involved a lot of outfits fees for overland charter fees seem to be excessive. But lets look at it this way as some here say it should be included.

Safari Cost = $5,500.00 + transfer $300.00 =
$5,800.00 total

Included in safari cost;

Safari Cost = $5,800.00 with no trasfer fee =
$5,800.00.

What's the difference if it's included or not, you pay the same?

If the outfitter thinks a transfer fee is necessary, you will pay it either way. In this scenerio, if you think $5,800.00 total is too much, book with someone else.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:


Safari Cost = $5,500.00 + transfer $300.00 =
$5,800.00 total

Included in safari cost;

Safari Cost = $5,800.00 with no trasfer fee =
$5,800.00.

What's the difference if it's included or not, you pay the same?

Great point Larry, and when you get down to it that is the bottom line.

The problem is that most hunters want to use the following math:

daily rate(x days)
+ trophly fees
---------------
= total hunt cost

Hunters want to do it this way because they want to know how much they are actually going to pay.

Some outfitters use the following math:

Daily rate(x days)
+ Trophy fees
+ Transfer
+ Dip and pack
+ Sundry fees
+ Alcohol
+ License fees
+ Sundry fees
+ Rental of camp rifle
------------------------
= Total hunt cost

Outfitters want to charge this way because they want hunter to know what they are actually paying for .

Karl,
maybe the trip to the Caprivi is too long for make a good example. Specially because ther'is a commercial flight (not a charter) from Windoek to there. So the client can arrive directly to the Caprivi area. Normally ther'arent flights for the hunting areas and this is the reason because the outfitters can charge so much for a transfer.
I know that the fuel is expensive and the costs for the car maintenance are very high but this is the same for each commercial enterprise. Costs are always a voice of any business... But normally such costs are not an addition to the price you pay for the service. Instead in the safari industry is normal add to the daily rate a lot of voices as explained from Jason. Someone might say that big game hunting in Africa is an activity for the rich people and then is right that cost a lot but just because it costs a lot I think that some items should never be counted. This applies to the transfers but also for other items such Alcohol and rental of camp rifle...Is like going to buy a Rolex and having to pay the box in which the clock is...

It't not logical to include the cost of the road transfer in the daily rates for the following simple reason: some clients arrive by charter flight.

So the practise is to charge a transfer fee (in which case you are not paying for that day); or to charge an extra day (or to charge for "nights in camp", which amounts to the same thing).

If you want to avoid this, then there are a couple of places you can hunt not too far from the airport: Matetsi or Hwange near Vic Falls in Zim for example; Zululand in RSA near Richard's Bay; the Windhoek area in Namibia.

I know a very good freelance PH in Zim who has his own plane. You can normally fly in/out with him at a very good price compared to what the charter companies charge. And you are hunting the first afternoon, or even earlier if you don't mind the heat.

Karl,

I am glad you cover it and don't charge...only one problem with your logic though...

Most safari operators don't ever by the new land rover. If an operator is going to make the calculation that every time I run my vehicle it costs me X amount in service and therefore I must charge for those costs, then a client has the right to expect completely insured, maintained, and well functioning vehicles as well as all other equipment in camp that the operator includes in their cost equation and hence there prices charged.

Therefore, every time there is any kind of equipment failure of any kind (since the price I am paying considers all these equipment and maintenance costs) that cuts into my hunting time, I want a refund of say 1/420th of the daily rate for every minute I am delayed.

The logic cuts both ways...BTW, Now the last time I was in Zim, I did not see a mechanics shop anywhere and all the safari operators I have met maintain there own vehicles.

Somehow, I suspect that this just one of these things that the price has creaped up over time.

Mario, I bet you could find a local B&B to arrange transport for a lot less to and from the airport.

quote:

then a client has the right to expect completely insured, maintained, and well functioning vehicles as well as all other equipment in camp.

Mike, above goes without saying. But to say that a breakage is now the outfitters fault, will drive up prices even higher, as then we assume the risk from the mecanics in town also! ;-)

Anyways, my example was just to show you and others where the money is going, and as mario said, that is the cost of doing business. That is why I only charge if I have to fetch someone from further than that I budgeted for.

And as Russ said, I cannot budget on every clint arriving the same way, some fly in to Katima, some wants to fly in to Vic Falls, some hire a charter plane, and some actually wants to drive from Windhoek to Caprivi...

The same with using one of my rifles, I normally ask the client to either bring me some hard to find cases, or buy some ammo if he uses a lot, but don't charge for the gun unless he damage it due to his negletence.

Karl:

Perhaps I have misread your post.

How can you claim a cost of $1800 USD to pick up a client and return him/her to the airport from any or all of your camps? $1800 per round trip? Actual costs? Really? Or is this simply an effort to recoup part of your total expenses with respect to a single vehicle? ( Which I understand, BTW.)

How would you value your expenses when said vehcile is paid off?

For those of you who watch Monday Night Football on ESPN, there is a new segment to the pre-game broadcast. It's called, "C'on man!" It a segment where the cast identifies aspects of the previous week in the NFL that create a moment of reflection. Kind of like calling BS.

On Karl's claim that he values a run to fetch and return a client anywhere in the neighborhood of $1800 USD, I call....
"C,on, Man!"

Karl,

Don't get me wrong...the majority of operators I have used never charged me for transfers.

I did find it rather annoying that the ones that did then made 4 stops after collecting me to do all their business in town. They could have at least been more subtle about it and did it before hand.

Transfer costs here are usually charter. If the client wants to drive in the cost is about a dollar a kilometer unless they are prepared to come in with the PH and his truck which most will throw in free of charge.

I have yet to hunt for an outfit here that charges for booze or so called sundries, rifle hire, ammo etc.

Every aspect of your hunt has a cost, and you have to pay it.

The difference between having an all inclusive price, or adding it afterwards, is very simple.

One you know ahead what you are going to be paying for.

The second is you are being nickle and dimed.

quote:

Originally posted by TWL:
Karl:

Perhaps I have misread your post.

How can you claim a cost of $1800 USD to pick up a client and return him/her to the airport from any or all of your camps? $1800 per round trip? Actual costs? Really? Or is this simply an effort to recoup part of your total expenses with respect to a single vehicle? ( Which I understand, BTW.)

How would you value your expenses when said vehcile is paid off?

For those of you who watch Monday Night Football on ESPN, there is a new segment to the pre-game broadcast. It's called, "C'on man!" It a segment where the cast identifies aspects of the previous week in the NFL that create a moment of reflection. Kind of like calling BS.

On Karl's claim that he values a run to fetch and return a client anywhere in the neighborhood of $1800 USD, I call....
"C,on, Man!"

David, that is easy to proove:
If I drive from the Caprivi to fetch someone, (which is most likely gonna happen), that is 2x 1250km for one way, or 4x 1250 both ways (I need to get back again).

Now, my Double cab Cruiser runs about 5.5km per litre of diesel, which works out at N$ 7730 at current cost of N$ 8.50 per litre. Now if I add all my services and tyre replacement costs during a year, and divide it by the amount of km traveled, I get a figure of N$0.87 that it cost me per km traveled. So the services. maintenance and tyres cost around N$4350-00 for a 5000km trip. That gives a total of N$ 12080 for this trip, which works out at US$ 1802-98 if you take today's bank buying rate for US$ from First National Bank Namibia.

And David, the above costs have nothing to do with paying off the vehicle, that is part of doing business. But one cannot include an unlimited vehicle transfer costs, someone might want to be picked up from Johannesburg...!
That is why my dayfees include pick up from closest commercial airport, but if you want to be picked up from further off, I think it is fair to charge a nominal fee for it.

BTW, my actual fee for transfer from Windhoek to Katima is way below my cost, at US$ 750 both ways, as I do need to get to Windhoek for something other than picking up clients from time to time.

We have a different take on the transfer cost scenario. If a client has booked and paid then a road transfer to any of our camps is included as part of the rate unless a second vehicle is necessitated due to Luggage(oh believe me this happens. 2 years ago a client with his wife took 2 vehicles fully loaded with all of their luggage).Vehicle costs are worked into the daily rate.My belief is simply that the sooner we get the client into camp, the sooner they can start hunting and enjoying their experience.I agree with Saeed that these costs should be shown upfront and should never be hidden.

We do however give clients an option to charter in which of course is to their account.

However I must also say something about costs incurred for transfers and point out that a transfer of 500km(ie HRE to Save Conservancy) is in effect a 1000km round trip. If the PH ,camp staff etc etc have been in camp for a few days before the clients arrival, Then this will necessitate another vehicle doing the transfer.If that vehicle has to return to collect the same client, this could end up being a total of 2000km , 2 full days on the road, 2 days pay for whoever is driving, overnight costs , vehicle running costs etc etc. It certainly does add up and over a year can be a significant cost in your budget.

Overall I believe that if costs are discussed beforehand, agreed upon and nothing hidden, then clients can budget accordingly. Hidden costs do no one any favours.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:

Sure they the operator has costs. But even if it is a 1/2 day there and a 1/2 day back $300-600 is ludicrous.

I beg to differ from you Mike,

I do not charge seperately for transfers in South Africa but I understand why some Operators do...

It costs me ZAR 600 in fuel and toll road costs for the one way trip of 350km's from my ranch to OR Tambo Airport. To pick a client up and drop him off again after the hunt I have to make this trip 4 times i.e. 1,400km's. Converted at the present exchange rate of roughly 7/1 this equals US$343... which means that over a 7 day hunt, $50 per day needs to be factored into my daily rate for transfer fees...

According to the Automobile Association of SA; the combined "fixed" and "running" cost of a diesel powered 4X4 vehicle (at an average of ZAR 7.60 per liter) - similar to mine - works out to ZAR 3.45/km. "Fixed" costs does not include the purchase price of the vehicle but does include items such as depreciation of the asset, insurance and license fees. (FWIW I don't think on can or should attempt to recover the purchase price of a vehicle from your clients through transfer fees). This means that the "actual" cost of my 1,400km trip to pick up and drop off clients at the airport is ZAR 4,830 (or $690).

Based on these numbers, charging between $300 and $600 for road transfer fees (if these costs were not factored into the Outfitter's daily rates) is not so ludicrous in my book.

Getting back to Mario's first post wherein he mentioned that the Outfitter's Daily Rate was already relatively high - yet he insisted on charging extra for the transfer...

Various factors play a role in pricing yourself in this market - one being that of your actual cost and another the market segment where you wish to place yourself in. There are Operators who charge a South African Plains Game Daily Rate in of $650p/d and others who charge $300p/d. Those who charge the higher prices are typically well-established Outfits who are targeting a certain (wealthy?) segment of the market while those who charge lower rates might be younger Outfits who are still trying to establish themselves in the market or Outfits who have been established but are focussing on blue collar clients as opposed to the wealthy...

At the end of the day (in RSA at least), an Outfitter's basic costs are made up by:

Road Transfer costs including day-to-day driving
Camp Fees (whether these fees paid to the owner of a camp or they be the cost of running your own camp)
Catering (incl. Cook, food and drinks)
Salaries of PH's, Trackers, Skinners and Camp Staff
PROFIT

It varies but essentially; the cost of the first 4 items on the list are on par with each other irrespective of who the Outfitter is (I'm excluding the really high/low-end camps for purpose of this example) and what really makes the difference financially between a $300p/d Outfit and a $650p/d Outfit is the percentage profit that the Outfitter loads on top.

Maybe the Outfitter Mario had been talking to is one of the higher-end Outfits... But I don't think whether one includes transfers into your rates or not really makes all that much of a difference as long as these things are made clear during the negotiation process... As long as a Client knows that the Outfitter will charge him X, Y or Z before the hunt the client will know beforehand what his hunt will cost him and it remains his decision as to whether he wants to book ot not.

That's my opinion at least...

I know this is the African forum, but would be interested for comparison sake how US outfitters handle this situation. Since a lot of clients who hunt Africa are from the US this comparison might shed a little more light on the subject and it's value?

In my elk hunting business, my prices are based on the client getting to my base location whether they drive, fly or whatever. If they choose to be picked up in Albuquerque at the airport, I will then charge them a $100.00 one way fee for pickup, same amount for the return. This is not a hidden fee as it's discussed prior to the hunt being booked.

We have lots of booking Agents and Outfitters here what is your norm for this service?

Not my intent to highjack the thread but feel that this "transfer fee" charge is quite the norm here in the US as well. Examples anyone?

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

Larry - As you know, I guide hunts here in CO, NM, etc. We never provide pick-up, we always request the client rents a vehicle and drives to hunt location. On the rare occasion when I have picked up someone, I did not charge them anything at all, but that situation is rare.

Every time I have been to Africa, or South America, Mexico, etc., I have been charged a transfer fee. I have known about the fee in advance and most of the time it is a flat rate,, that is, so much per transfer which will include up to a certain number of passengers. I have no problem with that. It is of course much more economical per person if we have a group. The operators that I have asked about this have explained to me they have to do it for many reasons. First of all the expense,, every operator markets his hunt for X dollars, if someone adds the cost of the transfer to the hunt he immediately appears higher and at a disadvantage,, part of the game. But the biggest issue is of time, if we arrive after an overnight flight he has had to come in the day before, rent accomodations and is away from his camp for basically two days. Even with the best of employees,, when the boss is away, things go off plan. I want my Ph in camp making sure everything is in top shape and ready to hunt,, not playing Taxi driver. He can subcontract that duty off to a transportation company that has their own vehicles, insurance, etc. Nothing is free on a hunt, it is all there. It is no different than the airline here in the US,, they are now nickle and dimeing us on Luggage or baggage fees, seat assignments, etc. We gripe and just want the companies to put it all in the price of the ticket. But they do not so they can advertise fares cheaper. Nothing is free, anywhere,, for any service.

Aaron - I agree the pick up is rare with me also. Most clients rent a car at the airport and drive to the base location. In a way this is a transfer fee, the client just does everything himself.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Larry - As you know, I guide hunts here in CO, NM, etc. We never provide pick-up, we always request the client rents a vehicle and drives to hunt location. On the rare occasion when I have picked up someone, I did not charge them anything at all, but that situation is rare.

just for to be more clear:
the outfitter I was talking charged 8500 $ for 8 days of hunt.
In the past I paid the transfers costs for the trip Harare/Nyakasanga and return ( 3 hours each way)
and also for Harare/Lowveld and Bulawayo / Lowveld

Hi Mario

Harare-Nyakasanga is approx 400km one way. So a pick up and drop off would be in the region of 1600km total.

Harare-Lowveld is 500km one way and would therefore be 2000km for the same scenario.Obviously if collected by the PH, and dropped off, then the distances would be halved.

A quick check with 2 car hire companies in Harare shows the following.

Eurocar: Pick up Toyota Hilux(not 4x4) Hire and Mileage (9 Days Hire and up to 1000km mileage)
$1920

Avis:Pick up Toyota Hilux(not 4x4) Hire and Mileage (9 Days Hire and up to 1000km mileage)
$2120.

In Zimbabwe I dont beleive it would be professional to advise Clients to get themselves to the Hunt destination. In the States, it is a completely different story as there are a myriad of car hire companies etc etc to deal with. In Zim choices are few, and as many of you know, the standards of driving are not exactly high. In addition can you imagine a first time client trying to find his way to Nyakasanga, Sijarira, Mokore or Dande.

As 90% of the posts have said if the fees are clearly stated at the beginning of the hunt, then it is up to the client to agree of disagree with the fee structure.

Zim frosty
Thank you very much for that, I hope your calculations puts this issue to rest now.
Cheers

Anyway you slice it or dice it, every African safari will cost you thousands of dollars. Even if a kind soul offered you a FREE hunt it still costs 1000s of dollars by the time you kit yourself out, buy a new rifle, a new safari hat and shirt to look smart, get there, get back, bring trophies home, pay govt. fees, concession fees, trophy fees, tips, taxidermy, new trophy room, etc.

So to debate intensively over a few hundred dollars to get to camp and back seems somewhat petty to me, given the total cost of a hunt. The only place to save some money is to drive rather than charter to camp, where this option may be possible. It's also nice to see the local countryside, but again driving in those countries is not like driving in North America or Europe for several reasons, so forget doing it yourself.

The one "nickel and dime" that kind of amused me was the fact that with great regularity I have been told that "If there is someone leaving/coming in, you can get the charter split." One time I did get a split charter, but it required a bigger aircraft, so the price was not 1/4, but rather about 2/3 of what I originally was going to pay- the other hunters got more out of it than I did (they had a lot of luggage...) but I guess it still was cheaper.

One time my PH flew with me- who paid the whole charter?

Every time they put groceries and supplies on the plane. You still pay it. They may have had to send someone or something in as they have to get the groceries in, but....if someone else will pay, they make you do it.

Quite frankly, while I would enjoy a leisurely drive across the African countryside, I usually try and book myself for hunting time and will spend the extra money to allow it, rather than use my few vacation days traveling. Heck, by the time I get to Africa I don't want to spend any more time in a plane or car than I have to...

I guess, I just figure that the charter or road transfer is just another cost, and I might as well roll with it. It ends up being pretty minimal compared to TF's, daily rate, and tips.

The size of the aircraft is simply a function of the number of passengers. So it's possible, if a group is coming in and you are alone, that you will be going out in a plane that is larger than necessary. I don't see how you can call this "nickel and dime", you have the right to refuse to use that plane and to pay for your own single engine charter to come fetch you. If you really want to avoid this, it's pretty simple, just make it clear to the charter co. that you are willing to share the total charter round trip pro rata between the total number of pax.

Groceries are to feed you, the client. One can't object to the operator putting some groceries on the flight.

The PH flying with you is a little less clear. If the PH is not already in the hunt area, he has to get there from whereever he just finished up. Normally, the PH is expected to get to the hunt area with his vehicle under his own steam. If the PH is flying, his vehicle is already in camp ... which means he has already paid once to get there. He may have made a trip to town specifically to meet you at the airport, or to run some errand between hunts. On $100-150 per day, it's not possible for the PH to pay several hundred dollars for a charter. On the flip side, most PHs will not charge you a fee if you hitch a ride in to camp with them from town.

Have you ever been to Alaska man? There they charge you $10 per cardboard box for your meat. Once, in Alaska, the operator had us spend an unplanned night at a lodge at the bush air strip, due to some snafu with the Otter. He expected us to pay for that night.

If you get "nickel and dimed", it's because you didn't get the deal in writing up front. N&D is just a euphemism for charges you did not expect. You can avoid that situation quite easily.

Russ, I think you are missing the point. I am more amused at the way that some folks use it as a way of getting something for nothing.

I understand the reason behind the change in airplane. It was covered quite well by the hunt operator when it happened. I'm just saying that the blanket statement of "If someone else is coming in, you can share in the charter", and elsewhere it says "charter costs are X" it seems a little disingenuous to put this in the contract.

Groceries feeding me.... Yes they are, plus everyone else in camp. If I was not flying in, they would still have to get the groceries. The groceries should be built in to the safari cost, correct? That includes getting them to camp, no? How many people here have talked about someone giving them a bill for having a gun that arrived late being flown in? Seems like getting groceries are a usual and customary expense of running a hunting camp, and thus built in. You cannot depend on a client flying in, can you? Especially when a client has been told that he has to leave some gear behind because its too much weight for the plane?

The PH flying... That's a bit obvious, isn't it? The company is providing me in the contract with a PH, hunting vehicle, and trackers/staff. I don't expect the PH to pay for it.

I have been to Alaska. One hunt all the plane costs were included in the hunt, the other it was a flat fee, even though we had to transfer camp. In the second hunt, it was stated that the charter cost x. The big cost for the meat was Alaska airlines air freight (my outfitter didn't charge a thing for an extra cub flight to get it out....)

I kinda doubt that one can get a contract that either has all contingencies enumerated or doesn't have a clause that reads "all other expenses are the responsibility of the client", or at least I have never seen one.

I view nickel and dime as a statement of various small charges of a questionable nature intended to pad the bottom line of an operator- mainly done to get a product to market at a "competitive price" and then make up the margin after they have the customer.