Another Modest Proposal:

I like Gerard's recognition of "the importance of momentum." Read the article at his website if you haven't already.

I also like the way he ranks loads within the same caliber by listing side by side the momentum and kinetic energy values for the varying bullet weights and velocities.

This is particularly appropriate for considering the double barreled combination of the FN solid and the aerodynamic HV.

.375HV265gr2950fps = 107/4700 GSI
(to 3 significant digits, properly rounded)

This might be the simplest method or shorthand for the GSI.

A slightly more complicated approach might also list the sectional density and ballistic coefficient along with the caliber, weight, velocity, and the bullet type for that load, such as:

Cal./Wt./Vel./(HV or FN)/SD/BC = Mo./KE >>>GSI

This would give the shooter all the info he needed to make his own decision about applicability of a load or to eyeball it against another load in the same caliber in an expeditious manner.

GSI = 107/4700 is what it boils down to for the champ .375 load listed above. That is a daisy.

I am going to have to use more GS custom bullets if stuff like that load is possible.
The 265 HV plus the 270 FN with a case full of Reloder 15 sounds like the optimum 375 H&H to me.

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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

And illegal for dangerous game in some countries?

I would like to propose a new index, the Controversy Rating And Performance Index (CRAPindex)

Here the number of threads which indicate controversy over killing power is divided by the number of threads indicating excellent performance. This figure is multiplied by the Operator Bias Factor to arrive at an answer which favours the prospective cartridge/load desired by the hunter/ballistician.

In this way the hunter/ballistician can concur with the PH when PH informs aforesaid hunter/ballistician that this load is a load of CRAP.

PS Allthough this does to an extent give away my views on index's it's meant in jest. I really do not wish to offend you.

[This message has been edited by 1894 (edited 06-21-2001).]

1894...how do you figure a .375 caliber bullet with more than 5000 ftlbs of muzzle energy is illegal in some countries. In Zim the standard for buff etc is approximately 4000 ftlbs of muzzle energy. The combo stated is basically equivalent to a 400gr .416 bullet at 2400 fps. Now before you jump on me I know the bigger diameter bullet will hit harder. If you don't have a ballistics program the simple formula to estimate muzzle velocity, in ftlbs, is muzzle velocity (squared) divided by 450,240 multiplied by the weight of the bullet in grains. In this case....(2950)x(2950) divided by 450,240 multiplied by 265gr = 5120 ftlbs of muzzle energy. Legal anywhere in Africa!

I'm not absolutely sure of my facts hence the question mark but I thought that for buffalo etc there was a minimum calibre/bullet weight/energy stipulation of 9.3mm/286gr/4000ftlb in Zimbabwe and that consequently RABs proposed load fell foul of the bullet weight criteria. I allways felt that monolithic bullets fell foul of such criteria because they are so long and may require non standard twists in order to be legal. I was making no comment on whether RABs load was suitable - I've never shot an African animal.

Apologies if I was wrong over the potential illegality.

Oh Lord, Now who's going to save the world?

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

There is a caliber and muzzle energy requirement only.....think about it for a moment, how would rate of twist impact energy and how would they be able to check the rate-of-twist in your barrel and the actual weight of the bullet you were using. Most of these folks can't count to 21 unless they stick out their tongue.

Theoretical performance indices are interesting, but should be balanced against field experience.

I would like to see some type of field comparison of the performance of a load that ranks low on the index, versus one that ranks high. For example, shoot 10 horses broadside with a 500 Jeffery pushing a GS Custom FN solid, and time how many seconds it takes for each to drop, then take an average.

Then shoot 10 horses with a 375 H&H pushing a GS Custom FN solid, broadside, and perform the same timing and averaging.

On average how much longer did it take for a horse to die from a 375 than from a 500?

Then perform the same shooting test comparing the GS FN solid to the Woodleigh RN solid. Etc.

If you live in a region where horses are not plentiful, pigs, camels, kangaroos or other livestock may be substituted. It is possible that taking the two rifles in question on a plains game hunt and comparing them every other animal will be as cheap as purchasing 20 horses for the test.

[This message has been edited by 500grains (edited 06-22-2001).]

DB Bill,
That is a great shortcut for calculating K.E., and you are right about the energy levels. Gerard's values were at 100 yards, and I just used those. A refinement would be to use the muzzle K.E. and momentum.

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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

1894,
I wasn't suggesting that the Irish should eat their babies to solve the potato famine.

Also, the CRAP index is an infringement on the BS index , and yours sounds like crap for sure, not very well thought out.

I think you folks that don't like numbers must be brain challenged in some way. Don't feel bad, my lack of talent is in music, I couldn't carry a tune in a bucket.

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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

The point I was trying to put across is that one of the reasons monolithics are attractive is that they are held by many to increase penetration and killing power If you have a marginal cartridge it is very tempting to use them, however where there are bullet weight restrictions things start to fall down. Monolithics are longer (as Ray himself pointed out in the .375 thread) and generaly cannot be stabilised by CIP twists for these minimum bullet weights. Examples are:-

It would be tempting to use a Barnes X in a 243 for a Scottish Red Stag, unfortunately you can't because a standard twist .243 won't stabilise a 100gr bullet. The law states that you must use a min of 6mm and 100gr.

Likewise I read somewhere that some of the African countries had a 9.3mm calibre restriction together with a 286gr bullet weight minimum for dangerous game. I speciifcaly noted this as I have a 9.3x62 and was hoping to use a lighter weight monlithic and realised I couldn't.If this were the case RAB's loads would be illegal in that country. As I can't find it I'm open to criticism which I've allready got in spades. Like I said I didn't mean to offend, I'm not so sure about some of your posts though.

GSI... add, subtract, multiply, and divide, what else could be, right? You know... there are some wonderful engineering classes you might want to consider, like a deformable solids class, anisotropic properties of crystalline solids, hydrodynamics, and a physical metallurgy class. Also, you will need to poke your head out of the add, subtract, multiply, and divide box, and take calculus with analytical geometry class, nonlinear dynamics, computational fluid dynamics, and a elementary differential equations class or two. You might find that what you are looking for is quite complex, perhaps morso then your Casio can help. These classes will help some though.
Probably the most fascinating and useful way of comparing cartridges, however, is to go out and shoot them.

1894,
No offense taken, just responding in kind. Actually the whole point of the GSI is not to tell you anything about cartridge effectiveness but just to give a simple ballistic expression for the shooter to eyeball in comparing loads...and to draw out some verbal exchanges just for fun.
Best Regards

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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

smallfry,
It worked on you. Actually I have a doctoral degree and two undergraduate degrees and I have had four semesters of calculus, differential equations, two statistics courses, thermodynamics, fluid mechanics, statics and dynamics, staged mass transfer, circuits, computer programming courses times three (back in the dark ages when we wrote in Fortran and Basic), metallurgy, and other courses of lesser importance as well as the prerequisite physics and chemistry, as well as one of the toughest of all, physical chemistry, etc. it is too tedious to mention all of them, let alone the accounting degree and M.D. degree with all they entail. I had a 99th percentile score on the MEDCAT science section (old exam). Thank you for asking.
If you don't like it ignore it. I am kind of fond of the GSI and BSI concepts.

BTW, I shoot every chance I get. Some of us have to work for a living. They don't pay medical doctors nearly enough for the hours and BS we put up with. Playing with you is a nice break from the tedium, when I can get it.

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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

Ouch!!... Maybe I was mistaken. I originally doubted that you did, but Perhaps you came up with BSI and GSI... because it almost sounds like you are defending yourself. Also, compared to me...(CTM) you are almost untouchable. Upon explaining your education I would imagine you would find short comings to these formulas. I am only a jun. in Material Science Engineering and have a lot to learn, however, I found that the CRAP index on this thread to be far more accurate, not on "eyeballing" cartridges (BTW I hear that eyeballing in comparison(s) has nothing to do with effectiveness, and consequently I am no longer sure of what the point is in comparing) but on eyeballing many ballistic formulae. I am still young...

smallfry,
Yeah, I'm the BSI nerd, and the 510 JAB dweeb. I think you nay sayers are suffering from bore envy. I can be a really big bore.

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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

R.A. Berry...from your crediential's post I couldn't tell if you are (1) an "expert" who knows more and more about less and less until he knows everything about nothing; or,(2) a "generalist" who knows less and less about more and more until he knows nothing about everything. Which is it?

My decoder ring is on the fritz again does anyone else have one in working order that can interpret this for me?

DB Bill, on another topic(another site too), thanks for the advice and you are 100% right, Saeed told me the same thing a week ago. You both have the proper insight into this and I am back on track, thanks to both of you for setting me straight again. I'll try to keep my focus on the spoor much better from now on! This not meant sarcastic, it's from the heart buddy!jj

[This message has been edited by JJHACK (edited 06-23-2001).]

Whew!! Man, Mr. B is qualified, and thats for sure...

I KNOW his formula works because he arrived at the same opinnion that I did years ago, that being:...the case that holds the most powder and the biggest bullet is the most powerfull !! Challange that you nay sayers!!

the above interpets to the big dog sleeps on the poarch...Yeah, I'm and Aggie.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray.......I'm sorry. I shouldn't have teased you and given you a hard time but I just didn't know you were an Aggie. My goodness! I'd never call a bald man "curly" or a midget "stretch" and I promise never, never, never to tell an Aggie joke on this Board.

DB Bill,
I am an expert-generalist, which means I know more and more about more and more the older I get.

Did I mention that I am also an accomplished painter in oil and acrylic? I like to do wildlife and landscape and the occasional naked woman in lifelike detail.

Thanks for asking.

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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

Ray,
I wish I had some of your qualifications. I am just a bwana-wannabe.

And let me just take this opportunity to recommend the BSI for rifles that throw the big, heavy bullets traveling around 2400 fps (plus or minus 250 fps).

For those that don't believe in BSI, then there is the GSI, which can be applied to any rifle or handgun cartridge. The GSI is just the facts, no BS.

Enough of this already? Never! Too much fun!

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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

Run those formulas by me again, both GSI and BSI.

smallfry,
You are an able student. You must search this website for your enlightenment. The BSI is fully developed. The GSI is in the preliminary stages of development. It is only a glimmer in my eye. The Accurate Reloading Africa Book will have a chapter on the BSI if I am not censored.

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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

1894, the 375 H&H is legal for any game in the world, regardless of country. I Kenya, where there is no longer any hunting, there was a 400 minimum for Rhino, and Elephant but that was a long time ago, and not too many of the old ele hunters paid much attention to that law, and some even used 303 british, and 8x57 Mauser military hardball because it was cheap, and easy to carry. most were little more than poachers, for all practicle purposes. To top this off the 9.3MM is .366 in dia, and the 375 is .375 dia The 9.3x62 and the 375 H&H are sisters, and there isn't a drop of sweat between them. The 375 H&H might be light in some tight places, but make no mistake it is legal to hunt it, if it walks crawls, or flies!

[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 06-24-2001).]