Why do so many people post questions on the African big game hunting forum, that are better suited other forums?

Examples Comparing cartridges, velocity, trajectory, double versus bolt, shouldn't these questions be posted on

the Gun Smithing, Reloading, Big bore forums?



Why are Morrtie and his friends allowed to post on any of these sites ?

Gee whiz, dude, that's a good question. Why?

I think those are legitimate questions for the potential African hunter...after all a double vs. a bolt for instance is strictly Africa IMO...and the rest apply when a newbie is headed for Africa...I think its their option not yours.

Robert,

I think the issue of calibre/guns is an integral part of the Africa Hunting forum. In fact if were to go back throught this forums history I think you will find calibres/guns threads are the biggest runners. Except off topic threads of course

Big bores just seem to have their own thing. For example this site has a Wildcat forum but I would say that 99% of the talk on big bore wildcats will be found in the Big Bores forum, not the Wilcat forum.

Mike

I have no problem with legitimate africa newbie questions. It's all of the "my" gun versus "your" gun crap, I would like to see discussed in their appropriate forums. I personally believe little is gained from these discussions. I would be the first to admit I am hard headed but I still think you are better off "starting" in the appropriate forum, if you are truly looking for answers.

I do believe A. R. is the best african web site on the net! and getting better every day

Is their any single forum or strand that does not digress to some extent ? You may find some of theese debates useless but those involved might dissagree. It is not difficult to simply not participate in strands that you have no interest in.

Bob,

I believe Ray is correct with his post ...But for some of the ignorant people who hide behide the screen of a puter monitor and insult others and ramble on about nonsense..
I believe some just want to distract an disrupt..

Regards,

Mike

R J, Once you get past the crap involved in getting to Africa, there is not one thing more important than the rifles, both type, and chambering, you will use for the game you intend hunting! The numbers GODS, sought by most gun club handloaders, are not usually, relevant to African hunting. Handloaders, who mostly shoot paper, and measure velocities, and group size,and revel in the heavy recoil, instead of hunting, are, for the most part, the people who post on the Handloader, and Big Bore forums. However no other place in the world, is the selection of the firearm more important, or as uneque as in Africa, so IMO, the gun related posts are tied very tightly to African hunting, and are relevent, to that forum!

You ask why these posts are not in handloading, or bigbore forums! IMO, most folks who only post on handloading,gunsmithing, and Big bore, are numbers people, who simply are only interested it the science of handloading, and the logistics of building firearms, but most have little experience with rifles, outside the gates of some fireing range! That isn't bad, but just not too helpfull to the guy who may be in very close proximity to some animal who wants to bite scratch, or stomp him. For that he needs the advice of people who have been there! Additionally,few people, who can get all the velocity, and tight groups, out of a particular cartridge, know much about what is required to take out a Cape Buffalo, or even how to go about working up a regulateing load for a double rifle. In fact most are prone to go exactly the opposite dirrection, than what is needed. These things are relative to African hunting,more than the punching of paper. Unlike most African hunters, the ardant handloader, and experimenter,has very little understanding of what is required in Africa, in most cases! To the handloader, all tha matters is the size of th hole in the barrel, and high velocity, and fpe! These things are irrelevant to a Cape Buffalo, or elephant, they aren't impressed by the numbers on a crono!

The very experienced, in handloading, and The guys who frequint BIG BORE forums, are mostly into numbers, as well, and simply do not understand that the numbers that work best on the animals found in Africa, are quite low, and are simply boreing to the speed, and power freaks,who habituate those forums.
So, all in all, the place you will get this very pertenant firearms information is on an African HUNTING forum, IMO!

As someone above suggested, all you need do is not participate in the strings that don't interest you. I have posted on many African forums, over the years, and have had dealings with many people in the African hunting field, both as client hunters, and Pro hunters, and the talk always turns, very quickly, to the rifles used for what ever game we are speaking about at the time, exactly the way it does on this African forum, and IMO, as it should be!

I'm sure Saeed would simply love to make each forum tailored to only the likes of each poster, but that would be a bit lonely, for the only poster who visited there! Personally, I like the African fourm exactly the way it is, so if it is changed to the way you want it, then I, and MOST of the regulars here, will be the ones posting about how it should be, and that we don't like it the way they have laid it out for only you!

In my experience, African forums are the same anyplace you go, so either all the folks there are wrong, and you are right, or you are the one who sits alone in your opinion!

WHATCHA THANK?

Ray, I concede your point as to it not being my option. It's just tiresome to hear the same old stuff without any basis of fact. I've learned quite a bit just checking out the threads that were informative. I think that I've kept my dumb questions to a minimum and still learned.

Mac,

1. Some people are hunters only. That's fine.

2. Some people are hunters and handloaders. That's fine.

3. Some people are hunters, handloaders and gunbuilders. That's fine.

There is no reason a person cannot be all three.

From Mac37 posting:

"IMO, most folks who only post on handloading,gunsmithing, and Big bore, are numbers people, who simply are only interested it the science of handloading, and the logistics of building firearms, but most have little experience with rifles, outside the gates of some fireing range!"

Mac37

Most people are not in your situation whereby they have shot 100s of buffalo and over many years....so they get to learn about changes in components etc....as you know it takes the combination of a number of animals and a number of years.

I have done it with the pig and kangaroo and you have done it with the African game.

But let me say this, I think I have probably shot more roos and pigs than most Australia shooters....but I have also spent far more rifle range time than most Australian shooters. Don't assume that "range time" automatically excludes time in the field

Another thing...the hundreds of buffalo and plains game you have shot does not mean that information you would pass on about calibre effectiveness is necessarily true. You have already indicated that you do not analyse such things

While it is true that people like 500 grains have not shot the 100s of animals in Africa, their keeness on analsis can mean a lot. In short, the 500 grains type person might give me more accurate information on the calibre/bullet to choose for Africa.

Experience can be deep....but very narrow.

Mike

PS. Glad to see that you are keeping the "off topic" threads alive

Against my better judgement, I will try to answer your post, but I am under no misconception, that you will accept it as anything but something to fight about!



Mike, as usual you are absolutely correct in what you say! I know you have to be correct, because you would simply die, if anyone ever proved you wrong about anything. Correct, That is, if everyone was 100% either this or that, but Again, you did not get my meaning, but that is my fault, because it is evident, I did not make myself clear! As you say, things are not simply black, and white, but a blend of color! I was speaking of averages, not in absolutes! The coment about "most" that habituate fireing ranges,and experiment with handloads endlessly, by a large margin, end their firearm use there, and seldom hunt! You will see the hunters there, but only near the season's begineing, and not much at any other time. Most of my experimenting is done out on the ranch, not on a gun club range.



Those who are into extreme long range shooting, with very high velocity rifles, most usually only punch paper, or at most like prairie dog shooting from a portable bench rest,with maybe an occasional prong horn thrown in, for good measure!

Quote:

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Another thing...the hundreds of buffalo and plains game you have shot does not mean that information you would pass on about calibre effectiveness is necessarily true. You have already indicated that you do not analyse such things

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I beg to differ with you on the above statement! In the first place, I haven't shot hundreds of Buffalo, but I certainly have shot enough that I can tell you what works best for shooting them! As for not analizeing the loads, you are dead wrong on that,anyone who shoots very many double rifles, will certainly get his shoulder sore at the bench, and in front of a loading machine.



I'm 67 yrs old, and have been hunting and shooting since tha age of six years, and have been handloading since tha age of 14! I shoot all types of rifles, and hunt all types of game, both large and small! I spend a lot of time working up loads, and testing bullets. The difference is, my experimenting is with hunting in mind,because I hunt as well,and as you say, so do you. The fact is, WE are not the run of the mill shooters you find on most gun club fireing ranges! Today in the USA, you have to wade through the assualt type rifles, in the hands of people who have no inerest in hunting at all, to get to the bench, to zero a scope for a trip to the hunting field. Most of those guys wouldn't know a cape Buffalo from a jersey cow!



You will see folks there with 460 Wby Mag rifles, and 458 Win Mags that will never be taken into the field for anything but stump shooting! They are simply "LOOK AT ME" rifles, and were never intended to be taken against anything that would bite back!The same goes for those who post mainly on balistics forums, most have no interest in anything else, and have their fun experimenting, and striveing for the perfect load, on paper!



These same people sitting around the range will reddily tell how good that rifle would be for Cape Buffalo hunting, eventhough they have not shot a cape buffalo with anything. All I'm saying with this is, because something looks good on paper, does not necessarily transfere to the real world when applied to a Cape Buffalo! That fact doesn't deter them from despenceing that information, on an African hunting forum, or on the big bore, or handloading forums. At least when the information comes from a forum dedicated to the hunting of dangerous game, then it will soon be corrected by several people, who "DO" know, if it is wrong, or unsafe!



This is why I say that the info about guns, and loads for use for African hunting, is certainly not off topic when despenced on a forum dedicated to hunting of African game! No matter what range you go to, the best info you will get about rifles, and loads for African hunting will come from the place with the most experienced in that type of hunting.



Mike, have you ever read a post or had a conversation, where you agreed with the other end of the exchange? I have never seen a post where you agreed with anyone, about anything, but I must admit, I haven't read all your posts, so maybe I missed one, or two! I was not saying I or anyone else knows everything, about anything, but what I am saying is the bulk of the infromation that will correctly apply to any subject, will useually come from those who who are most familiar with that subject. For this reason, I don't understand why anyone would think a post on the proper rifle type, or chambering for African hunting, would be off topic when posted on an African hunting forum!

Quote:

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Experience can be very deep, but very narrow!

---

So an one man's opinion, especially when he has only adverse opinions about everything, and everybody!



Well that's about as clear as clear as a poor uneducated Texas ranch kid can make it! If that isn't clear enough for you, you will simply have to consider it my best shot, and leave it alone!



Why do I have a feeling it will not fly with you? OH WELL, I guess I'll just have to live with your dissatisfaction< DANG>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

BYE!

Mac,

From your posting:

Against my better judgement, I will try to answer your post, but I am under no misconception, that you will accept it as anything but something to fight about!

Now read the rest of your post as you appear to be setting out to make the above come true.

As to my disagreeing with others points of views (an excluding political and troll type postings/threads) it is true that I often disagree and with good reason.

Check this small thread on NitroExpress and note Mbogo375s answer.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=reloading&Number=9798&Forum=All_Forums&Words=&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=1day&Main=9777&Search=true#Post9798

Well I generally agree with everything he has said. So what value is there in my adding a redundant post. However, I might do that if I agreed with an answer to a question whereby the answer had the appearance of being a very unlikely solution....Thus a second post with same type of answer might confirm to the poster asking the question that the unlikely solution is probably the true answer.

It should also be remembered that these forums are discussion forums and one of the objectives (certainly not the only objective ) is for people to gain information and knowledge. Those who have the knowledge to impart will often do a better job of it if they are challenged on their views. In addition, challenging someone's views might often change a few things in terms of how the person seeking the knowledge will see things.

Let me give me you an example. Lets say the discussion centres around rifle reliability for Africa and two people put forward their views. One person is a pig shooter in Australia and has never been outside Australia and the other person has been to Africa 4 times. Let's say that the African hunter says rifle ABC is the best and the Australian pig shooters says rifle XYZ is better. Now if the answers are brief and our questioner is limited in his knowledge then he might well ignore what the Australian pig shooter has said since that shooter has never been to Africa. But if challenging starts then it will be come apparent that the Australian pig shooter, while never having been to Africa, has probably used the rifles in the field literally 100s of times more than the African hunter and in extreme heat and dust. But then if we have further challenging some holes might appear in the Australian pig shooter's assessment. The fact that he shoots so much and each animal is just another target with no significant importance will mean he is probably not as keen or as aware if there is a gun problem. In other words under challenge it will become obvious that our pig shooter measures rifle satisfaction on a degree of happiness overall. That is, two misfeeds or a one extraction failure is completely dissolved over a weeks shooting.

Regards,

Mike

I've shot 100's of animals in Africa and all I know is if you dont hit'em good they run away. All this talk about loads etc. is just that talk.

From LV Eric posting:



All this talk about loads etc. is just that talk.



I thought this was a discussion/talk forum?????



Are you suggesting that all postings on calibres/bullets/loads should be stopped...or if they continue are you saying a wise man will not listen or read?



By the way, why are you reading this stuff and why are you influenced enough by what you are reading that you felt forced to make a posting Maybe you enjoy "just talk" but don't care to admit that you like "just talk".



Mike

I like to read. But I am tired of reading pissing contests and the writings of confrontional people who are just posting to get responses, that dont serve the community as a whole, only to amuse themselfs. I like to learn and share my experiences thats why I sent 100's of video tapes of one of my hunts out to AR members for free. Sure is differnt these days isnt it Mike. I like to contribute positive things not cause dramma or make inflamatory comments. Thats what a message board should be. I guess that times have changed, but my values havent. I wonder what happened here?

I guess that times have changed, but my values havent. I wonder what happened here

I think there are a few parts to the equation.

Firstly, the various aspects of guns/ammo/hunting can be talked out to the end at a much grater rate than the rate at which new members arrive. If we went back 2, 4 or even 6 years ago then when someone like me (and I have not changed)made some sort of outburst then its outcome was limited because the rest of the forum was caught up in discussing guns/ammo/hunting.

Secondly, as time moves on the forums become a little more clicky and a certain number of members want decorum put in place and because of less guns/ammo talk the decorum issue becomes bigger.

Thirdly, human nature being what it is means that the anti authority people like myself and others start to raise their objections. Those objections can come either in the form I deliver or via the multi identity of via the 45/70 postings etc. In fact the "decorum" that some like to think should exist on the African Hunting forum is in fact what invites the 45/70 postings. You can't change human nature.

Fourthly, those people who would enforce decorum and all things that are right and proper elect to debate the "baddies". But that is something that they will always lose as the "baddies" are not worried about rules etc. and are free to say whatever they want to say. In short, the advantages are all with us.

Now in case you think I am defending the "baddies", that is not the case. But it takes a partnership to complete the deal.

The people like myself represent a symptom of a problem. In the case of AR the problem is lack of activity on guns/ammo etc and there is probably not too much that can be done about that. However, what can be done is for AR to stop moving towards a rule based site. I suppose it is like a business that gets slack...people start to want rules etc. It is also worth mentioning that the lack of activity on AR is compounded by the dilution of postings caused by the huge number of forums. Then add slowness to the site in combination with Saeed and Don doing there management thing of "we don't really have the problem and the number of page views is actually increasing etc." and a general scene is set.

In my opinion the biggest problem that people like myself pose on the forums is that it is easy for others to lay the blame at the people like myself and that unfortunately causes the shots to be fired at the wrong target. Of course I am more than happy to be a target but the problem is that the real problem is not addressed.

I have said a few times in recent weeks that AR is getting the same feel as HA had a couple of years ago. Some people even claim I was responsible for the demise of HA and as flattering as that might be to be credited with such power the real truth is my soundings off are a symptom of a problem, rather than the problem itself and that was the case with HA.

Lastly and from your posting:

But I am tired of reading pissing contests and the writings of confrontional people who are just posting to get responses, that dont serve the community as a whole, only to amuse themselfs.

Two points I would make.

1) You don't have to read the stuff. I am sure you are a capable and quick reader who can rapidy scroll down.

2) Who are the people responding??

The off topic thread or troll thread or troll type posting injected into a thread is done because the opportunity exists. The rights or wrongs are irrelevant because people don't change. Since the people don't change the only thing you can do is to remove the opportunity or reason for troll/pissing contests etc.

Mike

LV Eric,

From 3 years ago.

http://www.accuratereloading.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2165&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=all&vc=1

Mike

Mike let me say I agree with you that guns/ammo should be discussed on any forum where guns/ammo are used in the persuit of the subject of that forum! That is the reason for my first post on this string. The author of this string wanted all talk of guns/ammo removed from the African hunting forum, I disagree! I think it is pertenant to that forum. For this reason, I can't understand why you took issue with my post at all, because you seem to be of the same opinion!

Quote:

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The people like myself represent a symptom of a problem. In the case of AR the problem is lack of activity on guns/ammo etc and there is probably not too much that can be done about that. However, what can be done is for AR to stop moving towards a rule based site.

---

In regard to the quote above, it is my opinion,that it is your confrontational manner to others that causes lack of traffic on this sight! I post on many forums that deal with hunting of large game, and firearm issues. Lately there has been an influx of folks, from this site, they say,because the conforntational nature of YOU, and Two other recent arrivals, and they are looking for calmer waters!

I witnessed the same thing with you at HA, where the atmosphere got so tense, driveing Swamp over the edge, so that he over reacted, and started all the censorship, and banning everyone who disagreed, about anything. That destroyed HA, and that was brought about by YOU,not Swamp, IMO!

Now you want to destroy this web-site as well, under the guise of makeing it better! Mike375, you are the problem, not the solution, regardless of your expanded opinion of your value to the free world! All things must have rules, but you have a problem with all authority,and at the same time you want athority over the way everyone else acts, and thinks! You are very fluent in your verbage, and what you call "DEBATE" , but it is seen contrariness by others, and confontational, not debate!

All that being said, I will post no further on this or anything else where the warlike are involved!

PS:
Folks, don't leave this web-site because of these people, unless you want ACCURATE RELOADING to go the same way HA, and the Do Do bird. Stay, and ignore the warlike amoung us, and post anything you want, where ever you want! If folks don't like it, they don't have to open it! Now that's freedom!

Mac,I guess I have to agree with you on this. I come and go from site to site looking for topics that interest me. With the agitators taking over with bullshit and hijacking every other thread it was getting real tiresome. Those pointing of fingers toward GeorgeS was totally unjustified, maybe the finger pointers should just get the hell out Dodge.

Robert, if you don't like the topic, don't click in, pretty simple. I enjoy hearing other peoples opinion on what they think is best or what has worked for them I do not always agree, but it is interesting reading, for me anyway. SO I guess my pet peeve are teh people that complai about any of the threads, don't click in or respond, lighten up.

Mac37,

One of the reasons that many businesses (and bulleting boards) die off is because people choose to look at issues that are not the real problem. To do might be distasteful.

In the case of HA it always had mild censorship which was basically limited to language. Then Swamp decided to champion the cause for Barber in Barber Vs Remington. One of the outcomes from that was extending cesnorship. Then there was asking for donations.

At no point do I claim to be some innocent angel. Actually I am less confrontational today than I was 2 or 3 years ago. However, the facts are that people like myslef will always be on sites and we won't change a great deal one way or the other....but we are like seeds on the ground and the people like yourself are the fertiliser and water.

I would say that in the last year by far and away the majority of my postings have been on the Political forum, out of harms way Just recently George decided to throw out a troll challenge on Big Bores. George is an intelligent man he would surely know that sort of thing would bring a reaction from me and it did.

Check your own responses just on this thread and also check the first posting I made on this thread. You will note that your first posting on this thread was confrontational mine was just the opposite. Yourself and several others are keen to throw water and fertiliser all over the place.

Mike

LV Eric,

It is very simple

Firstly, Robert Johnson starts a topic on the issue of Calibres Vs Hunting being discussed on the African Hunting forum. The fierst few responses (including my own) basically respond to the content of his posting in a civil and constructive manner.

Then Mac37 posts up and includes his attacks on rifle range users, handloaders with numbers etc. That post then invokes a response from myself and Mac37 chooses to keep things going and of course I am completely happy to accomodate

Then you post with a "view on life" type posting and that also invokes a couple of responses which you in turn respond to, not directly but a general sweeping response.

Something you might wish to consider. Why did you choose to enlarge and help keep alive a thread which is of a type that you are cleary against????? I think the answer lies with the fact that the forum is very slack at the moment on calibre/gun type threads as I don't recall you in the past as being a visitor to thse type of threads. Mac37 is quite different as he is a troll's delight and given the tremendous frequency at which he enters and contributes to such threads he must just love 'em

Mike

From one such as myself with a cleanly shaven pate I would hope you meant to say " bold faced lie" and not "Bald faced lie"

MacD37 posting in bold:

This makes my case! You can respond to something you disagree with, but it is forboten for the rest of us! You are against censorship, HUH? Mike375 I believe you to be a very inteligent person, but a little bit of a control freak, and I don't mean in your rifles!

You can do what you like BUT don't complain the outcomes. You are one of the noisiest complainers about off topic threads while at the same time being one of the largest contributors to them. Just check this thread and you star like performance

To deny those interested in hunting African game, to discuss the loads, and rifles that are best used, or not relaible in that persuit, on the African hunting forum, is censorship. That discussion is simply not off topic, no matter the opinion of the origenal poster of this string!That ban of discussion is what I was objecting to, and was in no way confrontational.

You been drinking too much single malt when you posted?? In the context of this thresad the above should be aimed at the topic starter.

All your posts are straw man posts,designed to draw in people for a fight,with inuendo, and outright lies. I bit! You win, so you can keep planting your seeds of dissension, it seems it is alright for you to disagree with a post, but the rest of us need your approval before WE object!

You don't need my appoval to make fool of yourself by complaining about off topic postings, forum wars etc while at the same time being the main contibutor

I still disagree with takeing rifles, and loads discussions out of African hunting forum, or any other place where those loads, and rifles are used in the context of the forum's subject!

Again, you have been drinking, this is for the topic starter.

In your other post, you claim I was attacking target shooters, and handloaders! You know, as well as I do, that is a bald faced lie! All I said was the best information of things African, would come from those involved in building rifles, and loads for African hunting. less so ,from folks with their interest centered, mainly, in target shooting, and the science of handloading! That is still true, and is not an attack on either party. It is true, there will be exceptions on both sides of the information flow, nothing is pure black, or white. But.. then you knew that didn't you?

Re read your posting and you did exactly what you complain of myslef and others of doing, that is making a confrontational posting.

Mike, you are so transparent, a flashlight shines right through you!

Well if that is the case then obviouly need some new batteries in your flashlight

Mike