I know that the 30-06 and/or possibly the30-03 was first used by Roosevelt. Between the wars, I believe, it became very popular. What was it called? I've seen 300 US, 30 Springfield amoung others and am wondering what it would be refered to by the typical Brit PH. thanks. capt david

30-06 or 30-06 Springfield in Africa and England.

FWIW, I have a Kynoch/ICI 1936 catalog reprint that lists the cartridges (and I quote exactly from the catalog) as:

".30 Rimless Rifle (U.S.A. Model, 1903)"

and

".30 Rimless Rifle (U.S.A. Model, "Springfield," 1906)"


-Bob F.

Frankly, until reading this thread, I had no idea that the "30-03" had ever gotten beyond some very limited field use. It replaced the 30-40 Krag-Jorgensen (whose fault was not in the cartridge but in the fact that it loaded one round at a time) Very fortunately, Paul Mauser's design breathing down the necks of US Army ordnance inspired the superlative 30-06 as the happy replacement! {Somewhere's I read once that the US Government paid royalties to Paul Mauser until the outbreak of WW1 because the Springfield rifle so closely followed Mauser design} (Many thanks to BFaucett for his post giving us an insight into some history. I just never realized that the "03" lasted so long as to appear in a 1936 catalog of (of all names)Kynoch) Gee! At 78 I'm still learning new things about firearms and their ammo!)

/

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Stick around, the good Mr Mauser & co exported 30-06 Mausers to the US as far back as 1908 and it was in fact the first caliber in Model B to be exported to the USA by Mauser before WW1.

Hans Tauscher advertisement from the April 1914 issue of Outdoor Life magazine shows a Mauser sporter chambered for the .30-06 Springfield.
http://www.landofborchardt.com/tauscher-article.html

Cheers!
-Bob F.

/

quote:

Originally posted by BFaucett:
FWIW, I have a Kynoch/ICI 1936 catalog reprint that lists the cartridges...

I thought I'd add a scan of the catalog page.




-Bob F.

quote:

30-06 or 30-06 Springfield in Africa and England.

Or the 7.62x63 if you're feeling Euro enough.

BFaucett:

This old man would be very grateful if you would give me a history lesson about your last reproduction of a catalog page. (No sarcasm, I hasten to say. I need to be instructed) What was the apparent difference between the "03" and the "06" that the catalog apparently lists two different cartridges? I always assumed that there was no difference in chamber lengths and that the difference was in powder loadings. Thanks for any info.

The .30-03 case neck was shortened by .07" to become the .30-06.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30-03

http://www.rt66.com/%7Ekorteng/SmallArms/1903A3.htm

Cheers!
-Bob F.

I thought some here might find this of interest.


Stewart Edward White with his Ludwig Wundhammer Springfield sporter in .30-06, 1910. This rifle is considered to be the first 1903 Springfield converted to a sporting rifle by a civilian gunmaker. Between White's trip to Africa in 1910, and his next trip in 1912, he killed 346 head of big game with this rifle.
Info from Michael Petrov's book, "Custom Gunmakers of the 20th Century".

Cheers!
-Bob F.

Bob F

Many thanks for your response. I just never knew until you cleared it up that the "06" was a shorter cartridge. I had always assumed that it was a difference of loadings (and maybe bullet type to a lesser extent) I wonder if the shortening was not a perhaps still further distancing from the 30-40 Krag -with a resultant easier factory production. (In my now distant youth, I owned a Krag that I actually shot also. I never forgot the honey smooth feed of the Krag's action -but I would imagine that it must have been a labor intensive rifle to manufacture. Just thinking out loud. No need to reply.

Bob F

Again thanks from this old "06" lover for the interesting photo and post about the early days of the "03"/06". The bolt in the picture doesn't look like the standard Springfield 30-06 bolt so I guess that was a matter of gradual progression? Next question (You're now my historical authority on a cartridge with which I had a lifelong love affair) - Why exactly did the US pay royalties to Mauser at all? The cartridge was different (OK, yeah, I know the 8mm can be loaded to very similar "06" velocities (as I found out around 1947-8) the shape of the bolt was different and if memory serves me the magazine is shaped differently. Why didn't Uncle Sam just tell Mauser that the genious of US Ordnance had designed a totally different cartridge and rifle?

I really don't know all of the details of the Mauser lawsuit. Basically a court (no idea which or what kind) found that the US had violated several Mauser patents so the US government had to pay royalties to Mauser.

Jon Speed's new book, "The Mauser Archives", has a lot of information about it. I just haven't read that part of the book yet.

-Bob F.

It wasn't for the cartridge, it was for the design of the rifle that the royalties had to be paid. I remember reading this in the American Rifleman years ago. I don't remember what exactly was too much like the Mauser.

Robert

Mauser's first patent was an American patent which he got wehn he worked for Remington !!!

Bob F

Again, my thanks for an informative response. I'll try to buy Jon Speed's book on Amazon.com. It does occur to me that you should write a book yourself about the development of the "03" and its morphing into the "06" together with how they came to be the famed "Springfield" that got carried in one world war and into the next one. (You could include the history of why US Marines went into action at Guadacanal carrying Springfields instead of the rifle of my generation " United States rifle, caliber 30, M1, gas operated, clip fed" (as we recruits had to recite) I always thought there were some kind of scandal involved there -and I mean the scandal of bureaucratic foul ups.

RVL111

You raise an interesting point. The only common feature I can think of between a Mauser and Springfield action is that they both cock on opening. Despite having owned a Krag as a teenager(the predecessor to the Springfield in the US service) I just don't remember if the Krag cocked on opening or on closing. My dim recollection (looking back to when dinosaurs roamed the earth) is that it cocked on closing. So perhaps that's the similarity of the Springfield and why Mauser got royalties. (I intend to read Jon Speed's book and find out. As the son of a WW1 veteran who got shot at by Mausers, I have a certain interest in finding out the truth)

Mete:

After reading your post, I'm glad that we swiped the Bayer aspirin patents in WW1!

That was very interesting about the 30-06. I have an interesting 7.62 x 63
Can someone help identify a rifle. I bought it at an estate sale.

The action was made in Austria, Mannlicher Schoenauer, 7.63 x 63 cal. In Holland & Holland hard case, I was told it is called crock case, Holland & Holland 98 New Bond Street, London.

The rifle case is in fairly good condition, outside green canvas with leather trim, handle and two straps in good condition.

The rifle is a "takedown" rifle, the stock is one piece, the bottom of the action hooks into a metal tang in the back of the stock to anchor the action and there is a pin that holds the barrel into the front of the stock, about 4" from the end of the stock. The action and barrel are not removable .It also has a removable magazine. It has never been drilled or tapped for scope mounts. It has two leaf sights, one folds down. There is some slight pitting but not bad. The bore appears to the naked eye to be in perfect shape. It has cleaning rods inside the stock accessible from steel butt plate with hinged part.

There are two paper tags in the case, one identifies the caliber as 7.62 x 63 and the other identifies it a 30-06 the tags are paper with Holland & Holland, Ltd., 13 Bruton Street, W.l They seem to have been glued at one time inside the case. It was sent to the factory to change the front sight, which is in an envelope and identified as "original front sight"

The name I Malcolmson is on the outside of the case, it seems to be stamped into the canvas.

I have owned this rifle for about 12 or 15 years every several years I will take out of the safe just to "pet" it. Started to take it to the range and shoot it, but never did. When you mount this rifle with your eyes closed and then open your eyes, the sights are right where your are looking, I wish my double fit that well.

I am probably going to sell this rifle and would like to get some ideas what it might be worth.

If anyone knows someone who might be familiar with Holland & Holland rifles, I would like to contact them, or have them contact me.
thanks

HI Gi
If it is the same rifle you showed me. It looks as if it was made to travel the world in pursuit of stag, boar and plains game. It had a great feel and was very fast to the shoulder with the sights coming up just right.I am sure some well to do sportsman was proud to take that rifle to field.
JD

very informative.

I guess Stewart was one of the best offhand shots ever.