I may be wrong, but I get the impression that these types of hunts are not very popular with foreign hunters - although cheaper.

JJHACK has announced such a hunt in Jan. 2006 and now also Balla Balla has done so.
Yet, it seems as if very little interest is shown by foreign hunters in this type of hunt.

Both JJHACK and Balla Balla could perhaps give some feedback on the results they had with their offerings so far.

What do foreign hunters miss in these types of hunts on offer and what would they really want in a SA hunt?

When I hunt in the US either for elk/deer or whatever, I do all my own cooking in camp, deal with clothes, finding game and everything else. IMHO when I go on a big game hunt I like to have those things taken care of for me. Again IMO I would rather pay more than have to cook for myself and worry about groceries. (In Balla Balla hunt I was under the impression they cooked for you)

If say I could save 1K or even 2K, by not having meals cooked and so on, I probably would just save up and do the "All Inclusive" hunt instead of cooking for myself.

I wouldn't have a problem taking care of the food part if enough variety was available and convinient to purchase.

The clothes thing is a different story. When I went to SA I only needed 3 changes since laundry was provided and I still was loaded down as much as I'd care to be. I don't want to spend my time on a safari doing laundry.

Okay, I'll respond to the question.

Part of what I like about going on plains games hunts in Namibia is the quality of the accomadations and the attention received, (meals and laundry). It is what got my wife interested in going along with me and herself becoming a big fan the African hunting experience. If I wanted to rough it or was worried about saving a grand, I'd go do an elk hunt in Wyoming.

I'm not going to work overtime and weekends, save up, pass on buying a new vehicle, to go to Africa every couple years to eat hot dogs and canned soup once there.

There is a lot of competition in RSA and Namibia for American clients at a number of quality hunting operations. They have figured out that spending 30-50 dollars a day on good food, service, and some drinks makes good business sense. I agree!

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Norman:
Okay, I'll respond to the question.

Part of what I like about going on plains games hunts in Namibia is the quality of the accomadations and the attention received, (meals and laundry). It is what got my wife interested in going along with me and herself becoming a big fan the African hunting experience. If I wanted to rough it or was worried about saving a grand, I'd go do an elk hunt in Wyoming.

I'm not going to work overtime and weekends, save up, pass on buying a new vehicle, to go to Africa every couple years to eat hot dogs and canned soup once there.

There is a lot of competition in RSA and Namibia for American clients at a number of quality hunting operations. They have figured out that spending 30-50 dollars a day on good food, service, and some drinks makes good business sense. I agree!

Matt,

I think you can do a hunt in Africa cheaper than you can do an guided elk hunt in WY these days.

Jagter

Hope you are keeping well in Witbank

We essentially DONT OFFER self cater or similar type (DIY) hunting either in SA or at the ranch in Zambia.

The SA plains game only special (which I have offered) is not a self cater type hunt, it is a (no daily rate hunt) as we are wanting to specifically reduce the animal numbers on the property, so it is a standard all professional services hunt as per normal

We dont get many if any enquiries for (no frills) and services type hunts, that is a different market, we are not in the DIY market ourselves.

Peter

Balla Balla wrote:

quote:

a standard all professional services hunt as per normal

Sorry Peter, misread your offer!

Why would you, and foreign hunters, say they are not interested in any type of hunt less than "a standard all professional services hunt as per normal"?

So I am curious. Why would there be significant savings by not having one of the local guys cook and wash dishes? I suspect that a cook can be hired for about US$50/month, which should not significantly influence the price of a safari.

Dan I think you are spot on. Most of the self-catering offers I have seen are not really much cheaper, especially in countries with such low labour costs. It is nice not to have to cook after a day's hunting.

I think the advantages (or disadvantages) of self-guided hunts vs self-catering hunts are sometimes confused together. Not having to pay for a PH is a big potential saving. Some guys I know used to buy their own rights and hunt mostly self-guided in Zim but they still had camp staff provided by some locals who also went along.

Minimum wage for SA farm labourers are closer to 3 x $50/month or roughly R900.00/month at R6:US$1.
A cook or chef definitely even more. See how misleading your own guesstimates can be!

Money aside, although always a factor, what about the challenge for you to be the hunter in stead of being a shooter of African game, even if it is only plains game?
That's what hunting is about as far as I'm concerned and guides where I hunt walk behind me - they are simply there to give me directions on the property if it is unknown to myself!

Is this way of hunting not a bigger a challenge?

Jagter,

I can inderstand your sentiments and my gut feeling is the same...

But you also have to look at the practicality aspect...If a visiting hunter only has say 10 or 14 days hunting in Africa say every two or three years, he wants to maximize his hunting time, not the time spent on admin...

Trying to organise food, accomadation, transport, camp staff such as skinners/trackers let alone find a hunting area and sorting out the paperwork/legal side of things is very difficult from several thousand miles away...Just getting one aspect of this logistics wrong could have a very adverse effect on your hunting trip...imagine a Brit or an American trying to organise such a hunt in Zim with no local assistance!

On the other hand, if the visiting hunter has a local hunting buddy who is an expirienced hunter, such a DIY trip becomes much more feasable... Same if the visitor ends up in Africa long term ie through his work or similar...

Regards,

Pete

quote:

Minimum wage for SA farm labourers are closer to 3 x $50/month or roughly R900.00/month at R6:US$1.
A cook or chef definitely even more. See how misleading your own guesstimates can be!

I was wondering where this US$50 rate in the previous post was coming from? I am not sure about Zim at present but in SA, Bots, Namibia I don't know where you would find anyone to work for even close that!

The 'almighty' US$ isn't made out of diamonds, despite what some think about its mythical power.US$50 = R300...no pal, perhaps many years ago or in another country or by some luck/labour abuse perhaps....

I agree with the cost/benefit sentiment though that 500grains has, but for a hunter who is perhaps familar with the place, I don't see it being a big issue. A group/pair of friends could quite easily organise it. Food/cooking would be no hassle at all in fully equipped self catering accom. Most local hunters do that anyway. Just buy food at the supermarket pre-hunt like you do at home. Licenses, the land owner could provide that service along with one or two staff to skin and perhaps a domestic worker.

Not everybodies cup of tea,I know, but I reckon some one who has been before or knows the country a bit, it would be fun, if you weren't pushed for time of course (and it wasn't only marginally cheaper)

Speaking about South Africa in particualar I summarise as follows.

The amount of wages paid to an employee does not (generally speaking) dictate the prices an outfitter can offer as there are a mix of factors to take into consideration. The overall running expenses are much more complicated than just to pay the staff, particularily as in the case of ranch hunting, often but not always the operator has a large family involvement and they do this as a lifestyle/come commercial operation.

The prices offered are dependant upon the unique situation of each operator and what his specific market is.

Some of the large operators are a turnover based company and need to run the hunters through continually like a sausage factory, some are more botique operations and only offer a select number of opportunities per season.

There is no magic formalae, that is why there is such a varience in prices and opportunities.

... the potential hunter must look at what his specific needs are and then tailor his booking to the operator that suits him best, both from an economic and satisfaction point of view

Remember, the most expensive is not always the best, and the cheapest is not always the worst

Cheers, Peter

I've had folks on this site tell me that I cannot hunt in RSA without a PH. Is that incorrect? I can't hunt with a RSA friend on one of the farms without a PH?

I'd rather have my food and Lodging taken care of be left to myself to hunt alone. Just come and take care of the game I shoot.

TJ to the letter of the law you cannot hunt without a PH as a non-resident. You would never get permits to export your trophies without the PH logbook paperwork from the PH involved with the hunt, and you would struggle to get gun permits without an invitation letter, and a real reason to bring your gun into the country.

You most certainly could accompany a local guy on a hunting trip, you might actually shoot a few aniamls. You could use his guns, you could take photos and leave all the trophies. You could have them dip packed and shipped to you as a gift from your friend. There are always ways of doing things by skirting the edges of the law.

These things usually come with consequenses and would not likely have the same financial effect on you that they would your local friend and the land owner allowing this to happen. You will be home by the time any investigation might occur and your friends and his family and friends are now on the hook for your "savings".

Even If I were invited to something like this. I would not likely put people who thought enough of me to offer this hunt, into that kind of risky position.

JJ:
Not sure I understand your response. First, you say "you cannot hunt without a PH.as a nonresident."
Then you say, "you could accompany a local guy on a hunting trip."
I never said anything about importing guns or exporting trophies.
So, can I hunt in RSA without a PH?
I think so. I did some research last year and if I remember correctly, I can hunt in RSA on certain category of farms.
While we're on the subject....I'm betting the new SAPS regulation requiring a letter from a local PH stating the dates and location of your hunt while in RSA was instituted by the Outfitters and PHs there. That would prevent me from bringing my gun over there to hunt with my friend, unless he is a PH. Money in their pocket.
My friend in Nelspruit invited me to hunt with him next year. I can use one of his guns. He is a 5th generation Africanner so I think he would know the regs.
If I get thrown in the local calaboose, will you bring me some cigarettes?

quote:

Originally posted by Jagter:
Money aside, although always a factor, what about the challenge for you to be the hunter in stead of being a shooter of African game, even if it is only plains game?
That's what hunting is about as far as I'm concerned .....

Yes, but the bastards won't let us do this!

Right so a cook might make $150 a month, lets be generous and say $300 a month. To hire a guy as a cook and camp helper for a week will cost me $70. Maybe spread over several clients as well.

Damn that will "hurt"! No.

So if offered a weeks plains game hunting ALL INCLUSIVE is $4000, a self-catering trip might be $3900! Where do I sign up for that "fantastic" deal!

I think the profit-margins in the equation might be the biggest factor somehow.

I think what "self-catering" deals offer is benefits to "suit-case" "outfitters" and PHs as they do not have to be as well established and setup to offer the hunts.

***

Jagter,

As for imagining all foreign clients who are forced to buy hunts due to regulations from outfitters as fat and lazy 'shooters', what do you think many of us do at home. Most of our hunting is DIY, self-tracked, self-supplied. solo hunted etc and we don't have 'blackamatics' as cooks, drivers, skinners, cleaners, laundry washers etc etc along either.

And as a comparison, hey imagine an Aussie outfitter, runs a NT camp similar to an African one with maybe ONE paid helper not five to thirty-five!

quote:

Originally posted by TJ:
JJ:
Not sure I understand your response. First, you say "you cannot hunt without a PH.as a nonresident."
Then you say, "you could accompany a local guy on a hunting trip."
I never said anything about importing guns or exporting trophies.
So, can I hunt in RSA without a PH?
I think so. I did some research last year and if I remember correctly, I can hunt in RSA on certain category of farms.
While we're on the subject....I'm betting the new SAPS regulation requiring a letter from a local PH stating the dates and location of your hunt while in RSA was instituted by the Outfitters and PHs there. That would prevent me from bringing my gun over there to hunt with my friend, unless he is a PH. Money in their pocket.
My friend in Nelspruit invited me to hunt with him next year. I can use one of his guns. He is a 5th generation Africanner so I think he would know the regs.
If I get thrown in the local calaboose, will you bring me some cigarettes?

TJ

Of cource you can hunt on a private owner operated ranch as long as it is a non-commercial hunt. Ifg you personally know a ranch owner and he lets you take out a few game for the pot that is OK IMHO ...BUT lets be clear and not try to cook the books, if is a commercial (under the table payment) hunt then you are up for the gallows. All commercial hunting comes under the strict regulations already outlined.

A (genuine private biltong/pot hunt) on a friends ranch where they own all the game animals is OK. But make sure that it is not trying to circumvent under the guise of being a private hunt. You use the owners guns and hunt the game. No trophies are processed for export.

Cheers, Peter

Guys,
JJ is correct. I do not have the game ordinances to hand to quote verse and chapter but they state quite specifically in all of them I have had to study that a non-resident may not hunt without the services of a PH, and the hunt has to have been arranged by an outfitter, if the PH does not have an outfitters licence.
This was alledgedly as a result of many complaints by visiting hunters of the rip-offs and bad practices they encountered. So the authorities laid the ground rules to try and standardise everything.
This new gun law was not thought up by PH's/Outfitters. It is an abhorrance to all of us. It was put together by a paranoid government ably assisted by the same people who put together the marvelous canadian gun law, funded by George Soros and the Danish government amongst others.
Out of interest, there are about 9 ordinances - basically one per province and some of them are quite different to others as far as what constitutes ordinary game, protected game etc. Licence fees vary from R8 ($1.50) to R150 ($15.00) and open seasons are also different.
For example, in KZ Natal, Blesbuck and Springbuck do not require a licence, just landowners permission to shoot (and his charge for shooting his animal)
Over the border in the Free State, one needs a game licence costing R50 ($9.00) to shoot the same animal.
The problem with the new firearms act over here is it has far reaching implications for local gun-owners. If a buddy over here allowed you to hunt with him and was not a PH/Outfitter and you were bust, and he was successfully charged and convicted, he would probably be declared unfit to possess firearms for a minimum of 5 years.

I do not know for sure if a non-resident, read any foreigner, can hunt big game in RSA without a PH, but if I were in charge of making the hunting regulations for an African country I would certainly require it. I don't think it takes much imagination to see just what would happen if some Joe Blow (or Juan or François or Ahmed) shows up at the airport with a rifle claiming he is going to "hunt" with no possible way for him to prove he has the slightest idea of what the hunting regulations are, what species are legal to shoot, where they are legal to shoot, at what times they are legal to shoot, etc, etc, and claiming that he has a "friend" who knows all this. I find it hard to believe that anybody would think this situation is preferable to the requirement that he he hunt with a PH who has as one of his prime responsibilities adherence to the hunting laws.

Situations differ on this from province to province - but not dramatically. Basically the legal situation is that no overseas/non resident hunter may import his firearm without having a hunt properly booked through a licenced outfitter. He must have details of that outfitters licence number and details of the PH and his licence. He must also have letters of invitation and motivation etc. He may not hunt ANY game without a properly licenced PH. If he hunts without a PH or without all the correct paperwork, he may find himself in jail, facing a fine and ALL equipment used during the hunt (whether owned by him or not) may be confiscated...... this includes vehicles. If a landowner allows him to hunt without a PH and/or all the proper paperwork then that landowner faces much the same penalties. Export licences for trophies will also not be granted without the correct paperwork.

If he borrows a rifle from a third party and is caught away from that third party (ie hunting different areas) then that's another offence. It's also an offence for the rifle owner.

However, does it ever happen? yes of course it does, but both landowner and overseas hunter should be (but often aren't) aware that they will probably face big shit if they're caught.......

Some areas also enforce their game laws more than others. To give you an idea of this, a few years ago a local hunter was driving to town to shop and he took his rifle along. When he saw a warthog standing on the edge of a dirt road, he couldn't resist and jumped out and shot it..... just as a local landowner drove up behind him. His only offence was shooting game in the road reserve...... but it still cost him a short stay in chokey, a fine and confiscation of everything he had with him at the time, including his rifle and brand new Toyota truck.

Personally, with deals around as good as they are (Balla Balla for example is offering trophy fees only and no daily rate) I don't reckon it's worth the risk..... but hey, it's up to each individual to make their own judgement......

Does anyone know anywere in Africa where self-guided hunts are legal, and feasible? Ideally an area with a fairly high chance of finding game, where it is possible to buy lisences and stuff, and maybe cabins or equivalent for rent? As a foreigner I can (and have) showed up at Denver airport, and hunted Elk on public lands, and I fail to see how it is different if foreign hunters do this in Africa. Hunters need to be savvy regarding regulations wherever we hunt, and accept the possibillity that we might be checked upon by officials. One important difference betwenn Africa and western countries is the political unstability, powerty, and violence in some parts of this beautiful continent. But hey, it can be dangerous to go for a stroll in the New York jungle too.... Anyone willing to share info?

There was a post here recently about self guided hunts in (I think Cameroon). It also used to be possible in Zim, but don't know if it still is........ perhapd Ganyana can tell us.

Cameroon and Zimbabwe as shakari mentions. The attractiveness of self-guided has decreased in Zim in recent years.

I read all the responses carefully. I'm still getting conflicting answers. Some says CAN....some says CAN'T.
I am aware of the rifle import laws and the trophy export laws.
The question was....Can a nonresident alien hunt animals in RSA without a licensed PH? There is no RIFLE IMPORT or no TROPHY EXPORT.
I guess it would be called a biltong hunt using the friends rifle. There is no under the table pay off.
There was an Outfitter/PH who posted here who had the RSA Hunting Regs on his site. It listed the different category of ranches and the different regs for each one. I forget who it was and can't find it.
Are the Regs available on the net? If so, where might I find them?
Thanks, folks.

TJ,

In RSA I don't think you can borrow a gun any more, unless the owner of the gun is right there with you. But perhaps a South African will clarify that for us.

quote:

The question was....Can a nonresident alien hunt animals in RSA without a licensed PH?

to the best of my knowledge there isn't a single province in RSA that allows an overseas visitor to hunt without a PH...... I'll phone PHASA tomorrow and get a definitive answer and post the reply.

As I said in a previous post, under the new act it is illegal for a SA resident to loan a firearm to anyone (whether resident or non resident) if it leaves his direct control..... I think you'll find the entire act on the SAPS website.

Thanks guys:
I would be hunting within sight of my friend, therefore under his control.
My concern is not to try to beat a PH out of a few bucks. I just want to go drink a few beers, bull shit around the campfire and maybe shoot an animal or two with my friend.
I'd appreciate that Steve. I'll look on the SAPS web site.Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by TJ:
Thanks guys:
I would be hunting within sight of my friend, therefore under his control.
My concern is not to try to beat a PH out of a few bucks. I just want to go drink a few beers, bull shit around the campfire and maybe shoot an animal or two with my friend.
I'd appreciate that Steve. I'll look on the SAPS web site.Thanks.

TJ

So essentially what you are saying is you want to travel all the way from USA to Africa to drink piss bullshit around campfire like most of us do, and also take a couple of animals for the thrill of shooting and to eat some nice steaks.

Do you have any (budget expectation) or do want to do this all for free.

Regards, Peter

In 1981 the four provincial nature conservation departments (now 9) introduced legislation to control the hunting, outfitting and professional hunting industries in South Africa.
The object of th legislation was to provide protection for the foreign hunter in South Africa by setting standards that would be obligatory before a hunting outfitter or professional hunter would be licenced to operate, and to provide for the maintenance of these standards once a licence has been granted.
(From the Ezemvelo Parks board legal desk)

We locals (Chasa - confederation of hunting asociations of SA) contacted the various provinces (Including Namibia - no it is not a province-anymore) recently as an exercise for the local hunting industry to get some details on new licencing requirements because of the sometimes major differences from province to province.

There is a task force - DEAT - that is looking into the standardisation of these but don't hold your breath.

At the same time the question was posed about foreign hunters/PH. Bottom line, no foreign national is allowed to hunt without the services of a PH. Some ordinances required that the person be at least a permanent resident, others require that the person must have been resident in SA for a minumum of 12 months before they can hunt as a local.

The whole issue seems to revolve around the terminology "reward" "trophy" and "client"
Where reward means any transaction allowing a hunt to take place.
Client means a person as above (non resident)
Trophy means any item of an animal - I mean any!

Are there guys that skirt the issue ... Does a bear sh1t in the woods?
Is it worth being bust and spend a while in an african hoosegow while trying to get the mess sorted? Your decision!

quote:

Originally posted by Balla Balla:

quote:

Originally posted by TJ:
Thanks guys:
I would be hunting within sight of my friend, therefore under his control.
My concern is not to try to beat a PH out of a few bucks. I just want to go drink a few beers, bull shit around the campfire and maybe shoot an animal or two with my friend.
I'd appreciate that Steve. I'll look on the SAPS web site.Thanks.

TJ

So essentially what you are saying is you want to travel all the way from USA to Africa to drink piss bullshit around campfire like most of us do, and also take a couple of animals for the thrill of shooting and to eat some nice steaks.

Do you have any (budget expectation) or do want to do this all for free.

Regards, Peter

Peter

I invite friends from overseas to go hunting with me all the time and some good drinks, food, good company and some shooting, perhaps not trophy animals is part of it. What friends do.

In South Africa there is a hell of a lot of antelope culling, so that sounds like a fun no hassles trip.

It isn't necessary or shouldn't be necessary to line your pockets for friends to have a good time together. I don't see how having to PAY someone adds to the enjoyment of the experience.

quote:

Originally posted by 500nitro:
In 1981 the four provincial nature conservation departments (now 9) introduced legislation to control the hunting, outfitting and professional hunting industries in South Africa.
The object of th legislation was to provide protection for the foreign hunter in South Africa by setting standards that would be obligatory before a hunting outfitter or professional hunter would be licenced to operate, and to provide for the maintenance of these standards once a licence has been granted.

When talking about "protection" if we are talking about "protecting" the hunter from dangerous game, there really isn't much of that in South Africa. And many countries have a dangerous game PH licence anyway for those hunts.

After all why are springbok consisted so dangerous as compared to a deer stag?

What it probably appears to mean is protecting the "standards" of a client's safari, but how many outfitters are de-registered each year?

It probably means protecting the market for the outfitter, ie reducing competition IMO. And increasing the potential revenues for the state.

If I wanted to hunt on a friends own farm I don't see why a third party needs to be involved only because of regulation. I know I would not be buying a luxury hunt just shooting with a friend.

All moot as it is not permitted but the real motivations are obvious.

.

NitroX,

don't get me wrong.
I hate petty legislation as much as the next guy.
I would be happy to have mates come over and hunt without the hassles, and did for many years until the feds started getting bent out of shape with the intro of the '81 legislation.

With the prevailing political sentiment here with regards to firearm owners/ownership it is just not worth taking a chance anymore.

Well from what Alf has told us ( quoted ) it seems that the devil lies in the detail and that if one is from overseas it becomes bloody hard to help out a buddy.

NitroX it is no good to equate/compare what might be the situation in AUS as we are now talking specifically SA which is not as free and easy as in the land downunder, but I do get the jist of your overview to offer a buddy that freedom to enjoy the company and beverages on offer. Unfortunaely in this new world order we are finding that to even offer our granny a hunt in SA might conflict upon some new rules as they change the rules upon us more often than you and I crack open a nice bottle of KIWI or AUSSIE RED Peter

OK,

I spoke to PHASA who checked with the President and the situation is as follows:-

You cannot import a rifle without all the correct paperwork - see my previous post for details. - Nor incidentally, may you borrow a rifle unless the owner is in attendance and has it under his direct control.

No overseas hunter may hunt (in any province)without a properly licenced PH in attendance if ANY renumeration takes place anywhere during the entire hunt.

No trophies may be exported without all the correct paperwork which means that the PH will have to have been in attendance or he/she wouldn't be able to complete his PH register - a copy of which is needed for the export licence.

Penalties are pretty much as I said and include confiscation of any and all equipment used during the hunt.

As I said, with prices such as no daily rate as are currently offered by Balla Balla I don't personally reckon it's worth the risk..... but hey, we're all big boys here and we can all make our own decisions.......

Whether these rules are justified or not, I don't know but I will say they help to maintain a good standard of service and therefore help maintain the (safari) reputation of the country...... One has to remember that Africa has a lot of DG - even if the immediate area being hunted doesn't, it's still possible for DG to be in a neighbouring area and break through a fence..... it's happened to me a few times over the years. You'd feel awfully silly if you had a small rifle, no PH and walked into a bunch of Elephants or other DG that wanted to get arsey with you........

Steve, thanks.
I owe you a beer. Wait a minute, maybe I can't buy you a beer, that would be considered remuneration.
That's as I remember it.
I can't import a gun.
I can't export a trophy.
My friend has to be in direct control of the gun.
I can pay no one for services.
Except for the last one, it sounds a lot like a PAC hunt using the PHs gun.

TJ, Trust me, you CAN buy me a beer!

Hell, you can buy me two!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jagter:
I may be wrong, but I get the impression that these types of hunts are not very popular with foreign hunters - although cheaper.
[QUOTE]

We offer a hunt in Zululand for Nyala etc from a bush camp, both catered and uncatered. The daily rate is $195 vs $300 catered. This reflectes the cost of a person to do the catering, the food and the alcohol. Due to the setup, this person is in camp and "on the meter" 24 hours a day. We still provide a camp assistant to clean dishes, make up beds, and do laundry but he is only there in mornings and again in the late afternoon to get the boiler going.

Money aside, the reasons a hunting party might decide to do their own catering are: 1. more privacy in camp, it's you and your party, you don't have to socialize with strangers. 2. gives you (and/or your spouse) something productive to do in the heat of the day and in the evenings; 3. you are a fussy eater and you know what you like and how you want it prepared; 4. you like solitude in the african night.

The PH shows up at dawn and leaves you to your own devices at dusk.

We have had clients do it both ways. It's a matter of preference. I have done it solo and liked it, but that's not for everyone. (things go bump in the night).