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OK, I'm about to give up. I've been trying to get the hang of shooting off of these things but I am obviously not getting it. I bought a pair of Long-Grass sticks and have shot about 40 rounds off of them. I can get the vertical very steady, but at 200 yards I am swimming back and forth over about 18 inches. Granted the wind has been blowing pretty good, but there must be a better way..... ______________________ I don't shoot elk at 600 yards for the same reasons I don't shoot ducks on the water, or turkeys from their roosts. If this confuses you then you're not welcome in my hunting camp. | ||
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How are you positioning your rifle and your hands? Robert If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretense of taking care of them, they must become happy. Thomas Jefferson, 1802 | |||
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Unless you get a rest for your arms as well (in particular the elbow of your trigger arm), there will always be some horizontal movement from a rest like this. Vertical movement, as you have discovered, is controlled pretty well. Alas, try shooting offhand at the same distances, and you'll still appreciate the advantages of the shooting sticks. But a set of sticks is not a benchrest - regardless of what the experts may claim. What I would do, 1) I would start shooting at shorter ranges, 100 yds is plenty to start with. If you master that, you can always extend your range. 2) shoot smaller (cheaper) calibers as well, more trigger time on the sticks will eventually lead to better results. 3) There is tendency to tense up, when you have natural (horizontal) movement in your sighting position. Most of us try to compensate this movement with muscle tension. I often find it is advantageous to train yourself to get rid of this extra muscle tension - it will not stop the horizontal movement, anyway. Try using the sticks without tensioning up. 4) The trick is to shoot enough from the sticks, that you can execute a correct trigger pull (squeeze) in the short periods of time where a suitable sight picture is available. You basically have to apply enough pressure to the trigger, that any further pressure will make the gun go off. But don't jerk it!. Now you are in a better position to take advantage of the little pauses in the horizontal movement. 5) don't believe an imperfect rest is a fast shooting tool. The more unstable the rest, the longer it will take you to execute a correct shot (at least if you are looking for consistency as opposed to a once-in-a-while hit). But try to compare with off-hand shooting, and then see what is faster and more stable. - mike ********************* The rifle is a noble weapon... It entices its bearer into primeval forests, into mountains and deserts untenanted by man. - Horace Kephart | |||
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If you rest directly on the hard sticks you will have problems. You can either wrap the top of the sticks with rubber tubing or I recommend shooting off the top of your off hand, which you place in the crook of the sticks. _______________________________  | |||
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To add to what MHO said on point 4. As you wobble naturally whether on sticks or shooting offhand, squeeze the trigger as the sights are moving toward where you want the shot to go. If the shot doesn't break as you pass the aim point hold the trigger until you start moving toward the point again then resume your squeeze until the shot breaks. This way the shot will break sooner or later when you are wobbling toward where you want the shot to go. This is good practice especially offhand. Also as MHO said, shooting sticks are a help but not a benchrest, but they're a lot better than nothing. If you have to shoot at an animal off of sticks at longer distances, your PH or possibly tracker will bend at the waist and lean on the sticks such that you can rest your right elbow (if you are right handed) on his back, which adds a lot of support and stability. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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On my first safari my PH had a set of sticks that were about 6-6 1/2 feet long, bound together with strips of inner tube (very commonly seen in many parts of Africa). I received a quick lesson and was instructed to lay the forearm of the rifle directly on the rubber and hold the sticks where they crossed, below the rifle. Then simply step forward if you are too low or step back if you are too high on the target. Rock steady and it worked every time. Don't over think it, just grab ahold with your left hand, lay the gun on top, aim, squeeze and Presto, meat on the ground!!! DC300 | |||
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Blacktailer nailed it. Just have someone play PH and stand next to you. Put your right elbow (if you are right handed) on thier shoulder, you will be amazed at how steady you will get. | |||
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The one thing that I found myself doing wrong was putting too much downward pressure or leaning on the sticks too much. This always resulted in low and to the left for me. When I started using the sticks just to balance the rifle, I found that I was much more accurate. Must have done something right because I came home with five nice trophies!! John | |||
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All sticks seem to be just a bit different from one another. (That's why I suggest taking your own when you go to Africa ... that way you're familiar with the one's you'll use.) I use Stoney Point tripod sticks. The trick with them is two fold: 1) how to hold the rifle on the sticks, and 2) finding the right balance point. The hold is personal and you have to figure it out yourself. The balance point I like puts enough barrel weight over on the other side of the rest to give some stability when I've stepped into the butt of the rifle just a little bit. Practice is the key. You gotta use'm before you get there! Mike -------------- DRSS, Womper's Club, NRA Life Member/Charter Member NRA Golden Eagles ... Knifemaker, http://www.mstarling.com | |||
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Here's how I do it. I stretch out on the sticks as much as possible (notice the forend is barely on the sticks) and then do one of two things. If open sights, like this pic, I hook my finger on the front of the forend and pull back while holding the sticks. this creates a two-way tension. I don;t really force the gun down on the sticks.. hell this is hard to describe. The sticks are like an extra stable hand, if you ouch down on them to hard, they will push back. I have found this does not work for me. If I am shooting with a scope, I actually wrap my finger across the top of the barrel. Please forgive the duct tape and bamboo, I have since gone to a more 'sophisticated' setup. Well, sort of, I just wrapped the bamboo in leather versus duct tape. And for all you nit pickers, this was a set up shot for a newspaper article, don;t be too critical. This is kind of like sex, just practice enough different positions and you will eventually find one that feels good and works the best. Good Luck! _BAxter  | |||
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In the 1960s I used to do a lot of offhand shooting in the metalicas siluetas leagues in northern Sonora, Mexico. These were 20-round matches fired at 1/2-inch steel cutouts of half-size chickens, javelinas, turkeys and desert sheep from 200 to 500 meters out. We would have loved to have been able to use sticks, but no shooting aids (including rifle slings or shooting jackets) were allowed. What Blacktailer said is right on: Shooting sticks and the best offhand position you can assume are not benchrests and you will wobble all over the place no matter what you do. The secret is to know when your sear will break as you squeeze the trigger and time the wobbling so the shot goes off when you are on target. This takes a lot of practice with your rifle. When I was competing (I only won one match out of maybe 150, so I was never a star), I spent 30 minutes a day dry-firing during the week, and then shot 40-60 rounds of .270 Win. ammo every weekend during the six-week leagues. I could hit the 12x20-inch javelina targets at 250 meters fairly regularly with that rifle. The chickens were small and easy to miss at 200 yards, but most of us could knock over three out of five. The turkey targets at 380 meters and the sheep targets at 500 meters were tough, and we figured we were shooting well if we hit two out of five on any particular day. I am way out of practice, and have reached the age that I'm a world-class wobbler, but I still can hit the vitals of a deer-size target out to 200 yards while shooting offhand. I stand with my feet apart at right angles to the target and my left shoulder pointing at the target. My right elbow is raised as high as I can get it, and my left elbow is on my hip, with the rifle balanced near the magazine box on the fingers of my left hand. This position is steadier than you might think. Try it with "medium" calibers such as the .30-06, 7 Rem Mag, etc. (Above that level of recoil is too much.) With a 2- to 3-pound trigger pull and very little practice you should be able to hit a pie plate at 100-150 yards nearly every time. Incidentally, the heavier the rifle (especially the barrel), the easier it is to hold it on target while shooting offhand. Bill quimby | |||
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mho nailed it Don.  Verbera!, Iugula!, Iugula!!! Blair. | |||
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Shooting from sticks is in many ways the same as any other kind of accurate shooting. Get the geometry right and it’ll all fall into place. You need to form as many triangles with your body as you possibly can. (Assuming you're right handed) Stand with your left leg forward and your right leg to the rear and keep the knees straight. (That’s one triangle) Then make two other triangles with your arms and try to keep your elbows as high as possible. Hold the rifle reasonably firmly to strengthen those triangles and try to imagine you're almost trying to twist the stock on two opposite directions at the same time. If you’re using a bipod, angle the top of the sticks towards you, and then lean into the sticks and the rifle, to form another triangle which will give additional stability. If you need to adjust the height on a set of bipod sticks, just move forward or back slightly as appropriate. If you're using tripod sticks, lean into them but (IMO) it's a little harder to form such a strong triangle with them. If the tripod is too high or too low, the tracker will adjust them for you. Your PH should be watching you on the sticks and if he thinks it necessary and if the occasion allows, he’ll lean into your shooting shoulder with his shoulder to give you even more stability. Do it right and you should be as steady on sticks as you are on a shooting bench. - If there's any wavering at all, you're doing something wrong........ but the more you practice, the better you'll get. Hope that helps.  | |||
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First, practice practice practice on the same set of sticks. This means taking the sticks to africa. Go to hardware store. By three 6 ft 1/2 inch bamboo pieces and one vacuum cleaner belt. Cut to maximum length that will fit in your gun case. Twist vacuum cleaner band over top of stiks. Voila!. Sell long grass sticks on ebay. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Try putting the bipod sticks slightly "off square" with the target - by moving front stick foot back. When you lie the rifle into the "V", you need to move left or right a few degrees to put a very slight twist load on the sticks in order to align with the target. You must turn into the front stick. This torsion will help to eliminate the horizontal drifting problem. Don't overdo it or the sticks may depart their footing! I like my front hand to hold the rifle right in the stick junction - kind'a like the picture above. Maybe even one or two fingers over the barrel to hold it down - that is with a scope of course - as the "twisting" effect may subtly push the rifle up and out of the twist. I hope this makes sense! Johan | |||
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What Steve said. That very gentle counter rotational twist can work wonders in steadying the firearm, whether it be a handgun or rifle. After that, it boils down to the 4 P's, practice, practice, practice, practice. Shoot out a couple of bricks of 22 doing this with a buddy setting up the sticks and you getting a shot off as quick as you are able to put the shot where you want it will work wonders. After a few range sessions you will notice that your time from spot to shot is very acceptable. Harris Safaris PO Box 853 Gillitts RSA 3603 www.southernafricansafaris.co.za https://www.facebook.com/pages...=aymt_homepage_panel "There is something about safari life that makes you forget all your sorrows and feel as if you had drunk half a bottle of champagne." - Karen Blixen, | |||
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I use the KISS system and don't over think the process. | |||
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The very best thing you could do to assist you in shooting better would be to throw the sticks in the creek and learn to shoot off hand without a sling. If you feel you need the support of a sling, not the "yuppy" initialed,"cobra," colored suede versions but the proper rifleman's sling able to produce steady shooting. The sling IS your portable benchrest and always ready when needed and very functional if you learn to use it. I can hear the shouting now and only say to those opposed to such "nonsense" is at least give it a try and practice dry firing for several rounds each time at the range and yes, "call" your shots as to where you believe the shot would have hit. If the shots are not going where you call them, practice more. Doubt the PH's are going to like not using the sticks for fear of having a lot more wounded or poorly shot game than they already have, but try placing a paper pie plate(most are 9-12") at the 100 yard distance, dry fire 3 times, live fire twice and do so until you can hit the plate more and more each cession. I know quite a few shooters who routinely sight in their hunting rifles off hand at 200 yards and can very easily keep 5 shots in a 9-10" circle. If the opportunity presents itself, attend a local Across the Course Rifle match and observe the off hand stage at 200 yards. Not even a sling as a supprt permitted at that stage and several of the shooters will have a score of mid to high 90's with X's to boot. Others pointed out the very important concept of breaking the shot as you "wobble" into the target, not away from it. You will wobble and can't prevent it, but you want to learn to control as much as possible. "Favor Center!!" | |||
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Personally, if I wanted to hit something at 200m, I'd be looking to take a sitting shot...its one of the reasons I prefer telescopic sticks like the Stoney point ones...Yes you can use the fixed/tall sticks from the sitting position, but I prefer the others... Otherwise, MHO has it right on... | |||
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Well, believe it is well understood that a hunter should always take the most stable position possible, but sitting, prone, leaning against a tree, rock, mound of earth, etc. is not always possible nor convenient and therefore the mastering of offhand shooting is a good skill to develop. A standing deer sized target is not a difficult shot with practice at 200 yards. | |||
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Follow Shikaris's advice. I am very reccoil sensitive thanks to an AK round though the right shoulder. Done right I can still shoot a 1 1/2 group off shooting stick with my double or 9,3 at 100m. Wouldn't dream of trying either from the bench! | |||
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Ps...Saeed has incriminating evidence of this. I tried his .577... and my shoulder moved so much that the back of the bolt hit me between the eyes!!! No doubt one day my image will appear on his campions list!!!! | |||
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Ok. I do this completely wrong BUT it works for me. So, here it is: Push the rifle right up tight into the sticks if you are using a tripod set-up. Right up to the trigger guard. If you are right handed rest your left arm on the sticks, reach around the sticks and hold the forearm of the rifle. Put some weight on the sticks. If this doesn't work for you, fine. I can hold a sub-3 inch group all day at 100 this way and not much worse at 200. Adjustable sticks, like the Mossback ones sold by Cabela's, in my experience are wonderful for sitting shots, not so much standing as they are too flexible to really lean into, however they are ok for practice. The "home-made" variety using bamboo and inner-tubes are spot on for standing if stout enough. Practice with a 22, a lot. If you hunt gophers or other live targets take the sticks out and shoot from them before your trip with whatever rifle you ordinarily use. Practice and familiarize yourself under any conditions you have available. | |||
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Thanks for all of the replies everyone. There are some great suggestions and I will try them out soon. I am going to be hunting with Vaughan Fulton on the Tsiseb Conservancy, and from the pictures I've seen there will be very little in the way of cover, so shots will be off sticks or prone. I am hoping that I can just lay down and shoot off of my daypack but am determined to master the sticks. ______________________ I don't shoot elk at 600 yards for the same reasons I don't shoot ducks on the water, or turkeys from their roosts. If this confuses you then you're not welcome in my hunting camp. | |||
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The advice given by mho is the same given by Jack O'Connor some 50 years ago. Squeeze the trigger when you are on and stop if you drift off target. Then in theory the rifle goes off when on target. Though I have used them a couple times while on a hunt, I totally dislike sticks. If I can't find a tree, I'd rather wait and get closer. Usually the tracker invariably sets them too high and by the time you get done screwing around getting them set to the correct height, any self-respecting animal will be long gone. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Hi, I'm Jerry Rutkowski of Long Grass. Here are my thoughts on the subject: While attending the Houston Safari show I learned a new way of shooting off sticks that has become my preferred method. The technique was shown to me by a PH from Namibia and is described below. - Place the rifle on the shooting V so that the rifle is roughly balanced fore and aft. This placement puts the rifle well forward of most other shooting stick methods. - Grasp the fore end with your left hand (right handed shooter) with your right hand in the normal trigger position. - Lower your left elbow until the left fore arm presses against the left stick leg. Apply enough pressure with your fore arm to put some bend in the left stick. It also helps to pull down on your rifle with the left hand. The goal here is to use the stick leg to lean against to reduce horizontal sway. - Lean slightly into the sticks. (I prefer to adjust my height and balance by locking my knees and spreading my feet rather than bending at the legs.) I believe there are several benefits to this approach. 1. The tension of the fore arm against the left stick leg reduces horizontal sway, especially in windy conditions. The result is better and more consistent shot placement. 2. The technique provides a firm two handed grip on the rifle and works with a scope or open sights. A two hand grip on the rifle is important to insure control with hard kicking rifles. 3. The sticks stay in position at the shot as you are essentially holding the sticks with the pressure from your forearm. You can work the action and take a follow up shot in the quickest possible manner. 4. The rifle is held tightly to the sticks requiring both to move as a unit when the rifle is fired. This reduces recoil. I hope this helps! Remember that your Long Grass sticks come with a lifetime satisfaction guarantee. | |||
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