We have seen several disputes aired on this forum over the years, where a client has expressed his dissatisfaction with a hunt or a related purchase/service from a provider. This has then generally degenerated into a a more or less vitriolic fight with the members of the forum taking sides, adding their own insults, making fun of one or other party, or telling both parties they are out of line.

In other threads we have read general comments about clients who could not hit the side of a barn, who were picky, who were drunk before breakfast, or who were not fit enough to walk half a mile. The implication being that if the client is not perfect, then he has no right to criticize the provider.

One view, is that the client has paid for the service/goods and that no matter what his failings, the person who has taken the money should put up and shut up, and get on with the job as best he can, and keep his mouth shut about the client forever after. The only right he has is to require payment for actual services rendered, and/or to refuse to provide future services.

The other view is that the client should behave according to norms and be fit, sober, competent with a rifle, have realistic expectations, and good natured at all times. Unless he conforms to these expectations, then he has no right to complain about the hunt/goods. If he does complain, then it is OK to defend vigorously, to belittle the client for his failings, and to otherwise try to discredit him.

Is is OK for others to chime in regarding their experience with the provider/client, or is that irrelevant? Is it OK for others who do not have any knowledge of the specific situation other than what is posted, to pass judgement on one or both parties?

If a provider takes a client's money, does he/she have a duty to respect the privacy of the client no matter what?

So rising above the noise and smoke of specific battles here, what do you guys think? Please identify yourself as client or provider.

It goes both ways Russ, as do most issues in this world where most of us can only see our side. I believe the hunter has the right to expect the hunt to be tailored to his needs and desires, after all he is the paying customer. He has a clear right to expect the conditions he paid for. On the other hand the Outfitter can and does need to exercise it's right to bar pain in the ass idiots from future hunts. They too have the right to expect decent treatment from the hunter towards themselves and those in camp. As for specifics, is the guy "dead eye dick", can he walk for hours on end etc.....-these are all questions the outfitter should have asked from the get go, and gotten honest answers on to allow them to best meet the needs of the hunter in question. Being in a direct service and sales industry I can tell you, 95% of the people I deal with are great, but sadly the 5% that sucks is the ones that make me question what I do. Same token, when it comes to hunting I am a client and expect good treatment, you don't have to kiss my rear, but be fair, honest, competent, and friendly the rest will work itself out.

I think a large part of this, both good and bad is an internet creation and has just expanded something that has gone on for as long as there has been guided safari hunting.

I'm sure that even in the early 1900's there were clients complaining about their white hunters once they returned home. Meanwhile the white hunters were griping about some of the clients when they gathered in the bars in Nairobi. Each group would have their gripe sessions in the company of their peers, and it would be relatively small scale spread of information. This would have been mainly word of mouth, and more than likely neither side would know that the other had a problem.

Now thanks to the internet everybody has a voice and can spread their version/opinions on what happened. Fraudulent operators can be exposed, but at the same time problem clients can damage the reputation of a good PH/safari company/booking agent by telling their tale of woe which arose from their unrealistic expectations. Now both sides may be in the same forum and feel a need to defend themselves,and if they aren't a member their friends or former clients will fell the need to defend them. Along those lines, it's probably good that "the American PH in Tanzania who shall not be named" isn't a forum member.

Like I said, it's both good and bad. Just like anything on the net you need to take anything you read with a grain, or even a boxcar load of salt.

As a consumer in this matter, there is one thing that really pisses me off with and outfitter or PH and that is comments about prior clients (bad comments) first I don't care about other clients and secondly my first thoughts are well I guess my screw ups are going to be fodder for the next hunter and we all have our bad moments. I think hunters should inform the provider all relative information about his abilities and needs and wants prior to the hunt. I realize the majority of us don't want to fess up to our short commings, prior to my knee replacement I told any one I booked with I could not walk a half a mile and could not run 10yds. This served me well as good honest professionals told me there were hunts I could not do, this saved me money and them time. I guess it comes down to that old golden rule. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Is the world perfect? No! We just have to live with reality and plan for it. JMO

With the exception of the master race, (women!) no-one is always right. There are good and bad, honest and dishonest and fair and unfair clients and operators in hunting.

And yes, they've always been there and to prove it, (and admittedly a little tongue in cheek) here's the proof, written in the early 1900s

THE HUNTER
By Brian Brooke

I will tell you of the hunter, if ye listen for a while,
For their lives are worth the telling now and then;
There is much behind the curtain, which would make you raise a smile,
In the lives of these hard safari men.
For his life is full of changes – there are no two weeks the same,
And he’s not so free as hunters were of yore;
But his days are surely numbered; he must trek with all the game,
And ye’ll never see the hunter any more.
Out in the tropical forest, and out in the great dry plain,
Always under the scorching sun and oft in the drenching rain,
Where he has led his safaris, there he will lead again,
Till the hunter’s gone for ever, and the hunted all are slain.

Ye have pity for the soldier, who is fighting at the Front,
Ye have pity for the girl he left behind;
But the man who makes your countries and who stands the foremost brunt,
Ye have none for him – but still he doesn’t mind !
And if he should be married, well it makes no blooming odds,
He must trek away and leave his lonely wife;
One farewell kiss, one murmured word, one oath by all his gods,
And then off amongst the tusks he takes his life.
And there she alone awaits him, awaits for months on end;
To none can she tell her worries; on none can she e’er depend;
For she is more than a hunter’s wife – she is also the hunter’s friend.

The big-game shooter comes from home and the hunter takes him out,
With his countless loads of patent food and drink;
And the shootist in the Norfolk, he has nought to think about,
Which is just as well as p’raps he couldn’t think;
Then when ev’rything is ready, and at last they start away,
The shootist weighted down with belts and knives,
They have such a kit collected that a tenderfoot would say,
They were going out to camp for all their lives.
Pork butcher, millionaire by rights – Sir Patrick de John de Jones,
Well armed with musical boxes and loaded with gramophones,
Butterfly nets for beetles and bugs, and tins for the precious stones,
While under his stacks of rifles the black man sweats and groans.

And the hunter he must manage ev’ry detail of the trip;
For the present let us simply call him Jim,
James Dougal was his proper name – his horse’s name was “Gip,â€
But plain Jim was always good enough for him.
Now what these big game sportsmen of the hunter and his work?
And what care they what the hell he has to do?
So long as he will shoot their game and do the part they shirk,
And so long as he will keep their secrets too,
They oft complain safari life is wearisome and tame;
When posho’s short and the boys desert it’s always much the same;
They never know when the horse is sick, and the one sound mule goes lame;
What odds are these if they’ve lots to eat and someone to shoot their game?

One morning when the eggs run out and the bacon isn’t cooked,
He at once begins to talk of starting home;
He swears that he’s been swindled, cheated, blackguarded and rooked,
And he’ll wish to God he’d never even come.
When he misses twenty shots per day he swears his rifles wrong,
And curses maker, cartridges and buck;
And everything is murmured to the one eternal song;
Oh it’s just the same – it always was my luck !
Now he’s tired out with trekking, and he’s bored when he’s in camp;
Then he’s burnt his mouth with smoking and he cannot taste his “champâ€;
He declares enamelled dishes would not satisfy a tramp,
And the man who made his groundsheet is a rascal and a scamp.

But all is well that ends well, and De Jones is home once more
With his trophies hung about on ev’ry wall;
From the Lion on the carpet to the tusk behind the door
He can tell you diff’rent stories of them all.
And if you press him gently, you will hear with bated breath
All the roughing and the hardships he has known;
How he killed those many trophies, all his risks with life and death,
How he hunted, trapped and caught them all alone;
How he led his own safari into dangers fierce and rife,
How he quelled a native rising, lurid yarns of blood and strife,
How he mesmerised a Lion, how he saved his hunter’s life;
Press him once more very gently – how he bought and sold a wife.

But the hunter, he is out again on such another trip;
- For the present let us simply call him Jim,
James Dougal was his proper name – his horse’s name was “Gip†–
And plain Jim was always good enough for him.
And De Jones need never worry, that his secrets shall be known,
Though he feels a tremor now and then, of course,
For the honour of a hunter is a password of his own,
And you cannot draw a secret from a horse.
Now he’s smiling by his fire, and his smile is hard and grim;
He knows that Rowland Ward’s is full with his heads to the brim.
Yes, Rowland has his records, but he does not mention him;
They’re shot by Butcher, Jones and Co., - and not by Hunter Jim!

Basically, it should be the client and the PH/Outfitter to tell their sides of the story. So all can see both sides of the story. I see no problem with someone who has hunted with the PH/Outfitter to tell if the had a good hunt and why but should not attack the one who says they had a bad hunt with them. Alot of times it is just the personalities of the people involved that just don't see eye to eye.

What should not be done is all the yahoo's who have nothing to do with either party chime in and start all the pissing matches. This accomplishes nothing.

Very nice Shakari. Where did you find that?

Brett

Brett,

Glad you enjoyed it. I've always loved poetry and 'discovered' Brian Brooke many years ago.

I've never seen his work on the net, but am lucky enough to have a book of his work.

He died in WW1 and must have been a very interesting guy. He's travelled extensively including the US and Africa and it says in the preface of the book that whilst he was in
Africa he was talking to some Maasai who were telling him how brave they were to hunt Lions the way they do......... so to prove the 'whities' weren't so lacking. he crawled into a cave, killed a Leopard with a spear and dragged it out..........

Nice poem Steve!

Here's another from the same author. I use the last two verses in our annual Christmas card we send out to friends and clients.........

The New Year
By Brian Brooke

The sun is sinking in the west, like one great brazen orb of light,
Till poised upon the mountain crest, it seems to halt before its flight;
Of all God’s gifts, by far the best, of all his blessings, far most blest,
Then swiftly sinks before our sight; the day is dead, God bless the night!

So dies the year, and who would hold it back if even power he had?
The New Year comes, farewell the old! Why stand and mourn in accents sad?
Some plunge ahead with spirits bold, and some may stand with conscience cold;
But each and all his share may add, there’s none too good and none too bad.

Some sit alone this New Year’s eve, and some within a crowded place;
To some the old year seems to leave of joy and gladness not a trace.
But joy and sadness interweave, and if you laugh, you fain must grieve;
Death is a thing we all must face, and time is of unaltered pace.

The old man feels the time go fast, he knows his years are growing few;
The cloak of youth from him is cast – ah, if the young man only knew!
But do not think your time is past; your heart is young until the last;
Where’er there’s youth there’s work for you; let each year start your youth anew.

For you, East Africa, I trust this coming year with joys may fill;
May this year ever further thrust you up the steep and stony hill.
Then, to your sons, it is but just success should come; for come it must!
And to officials all goodwill; may improve a little still!

We all have friends in other lands, friends whom we love to call our own;
We may not grasp them by the hands, - but are our wishes thither blown?
The lonely settler silent stands, the night breeze fans the firebrands;
There’s much on earth which is unknown; I fancy he is not alone!

The sun is rising in the East, the morning light is cold and clear;
The lion leaves his midnight feast, the jackal slinks away in fear;
The sky with golden lines is creased; good luck to all, both man and beast;
To all our friends, both far and near, a prosp’rous, happy, bright New Year!

I have been a client. I certainly feel that the client has the right to do or not do what he wants on his safari. This includes the failure to prepare physically and mentally for the hunt. On the other hand, he should not complain about the lack of success.

It is poor practice for a outfitter or ph to talk too much about other clients. As someone mentioned above, the current client immediately thinks, "My god, what is he going to say about me?"

Regarding complaining on the internet, I would go so far as to say that an outfitter cannot "win" in a dispute on the internet with a former client. The choices are to apologize; to offer some relief financial or otherwise; or to remain silent. The client runs a certain risk if he has not received his trophies.

To me, the most egregious thing a outfitter can do is to sell opportunities which he cannot provide. As Russ pointed out in a companion thread, this is out right fraud. But it happens.

The next worst thing he can do is to over sell a hunt in terms of the number of animals available (the ease of finding a trophy), their quality, and the ease of taking them. A new guy shows up, thinks that 60" kudu are around every corner and all one has to do is shoot a rifle in their direction and they fall over dead.

One of the reasons that I proposed adoption of a standard of business ethics and a means of mediating or adjudicating complaints about business practices, are the matters raised here.

There are providers who take advantage of the clientèle, and sell more animals than they have on quota or otherwise misrepresent their product. They do the rest of the "good guys" a disservice. There are clients who are unrealistic in terms of their expectations, and expect the outfitter and ph to make up for their lack of prior preparation, fitness and skill. (I have known ph's who were capable and dedicated enough to mitigate a great deal of the client's deficiencies.)

There should be a means of stopping the bad guys from "raping" the unsuspecting, and preventing disgruntled clients from tar and feathering a diligent outfitter on the internet for lack of success arising out the the client's failings or the vagaries of hunting with which we must live. Kudude

In previous employment I have seen a few Family Law matters cross my desk on the way to court. We had a rather cynical yet accurate saying about family law hearings. Between an ex wife and ex husband there are always three versions. His, hers and ....

I am going to propose a code of conduct that I think most of us can live with. I have thought about this long and hard, having been on both sides of the equation. As a hunter, I have had some bad experiences with guides/outfitters/PHs. As a merchant, I have had the odd dissatisfied customer, it works out to about one every other year. As a booking agent, I have yet to have a significant "event" but that could happen on the next hunt. So let's talk about hunts, since that's what this forum is mainly about.

As an outfitter or PH, when you take a client's booking and his money, you commmit to provide certain services. You are obligated to go to all reasonable lengths to provide those services, and to accommodate or compensate for any disabilities or shortcomings the client may have. That's part and parcel of being in the business. People who have the money to go on high dollar hunts are not always in top physical shape, nor are they necessarily world class shots. And they can be opinionated and difficult. The client is not obligated to conform to any norms of behavior. If he wants to get drunk and sleep in til noon, that's his business. He who pays the piper...

If the client is unhappy and you settle the matter with him in the field, then the client is obligated to refrain from further action. He has taken whatever you offered in settlement and that should be it. You both keep your mouths shut. That's implicit in the settlement.

If the client is unhappy and you don't settle the matter, then the client is free to take further action, be that a negative hunt report, legal action, or just bad-mouthing the provider in an internet forum. He paid and if dissatisfied, he is entitled to say so, to whomever and via whatever medium he pleases. The provider, in these circumstances, is entitled to take whatever steps he feels he needs to take to correct any misstatements of fact, but he is still obligated to keep his mouth shut about the client's behaviour or shortcomings.

Say the client is unhappy because he wanted a good kudu but didn't get one. The PH told him ahead of time that his area held plenty of trophy quality kudu. The client turns out to be a lousy shot, wounding several animals. He is also a heavy drinker and didn't get going some days until after lunch. On one occasion, he continued partying after getting up for lunch and the PH declined to take him out that afternoon. On the second to last day, he did see one decent kudu one evening on the way back to camp but missed clean shooting from the back of the truck. He would only road hunt as he wasn't walking fit and no other opportunity presents itself during this hunt. He complains to the PH at the end of the hunt about going home without a kudu, the one thing he really wanted. The PH basically says "that's hunting" and offers nothing. The client gets back to the USA and posts a negative report on AR, accusing the PH of leading him on about the kudu situation on his property, stating that he never saw a single kudu, as well as complaining about the food and the fact that the PH wouldn't take him hunting one afternoon after he had had a "couple of beers" with lunch. And finally, that the PH was a sour sullen SOB for the entire hunt.

The PH is entitled to correct the misstatement of facts. He can say that the client shot and missed a kudu. He can say that the clients prior and post shot good kudu on that property, and he can post photos. He can say that he has a policy of shooting first and drinking later, and not the other way round. But he can't say the client was a drunk every night, that the client was too fat,lazy, and hung over to get off the truck and walk, or that the client couldn't hit the side of a barn from 20 paces.

Other PHs that have hunted with this client and know his style likewise should keep their mouths shut. They had nothing to do with this hunt and don't know the true facts. They can't malign the client.

Other clients who know the PH can say they found him to be a fine fellow and that they took good kudu with him. However, they can't say that the client is a liar or a slob. They don't know the truth, and they have no way of knowing it, esp. if the PH keeps his mouth shut as he should.

Other posters on AR can read the posts, ask questions, post relevant comments, but should refrain from passing judgement, making nasty or vulgar comments about the protagonists, or condemning either side. They are not self-appointed judges and in any case, they don't know which set of facts are correct nor will they ever know.

That's how I see it. Of course you guys will do whatever you want, so I suppose this is a bit of a waste of time and effort. But hey, AR has been a bit slow of late and how many times can you go over whether the 30-06 is a good PG cartridge?

Russ,

Your proposal above and a comment you made elsewhere about be willing to be the "escrow" agent or pot holder seem to answer many of the issues that I raised.

I would certainly hope that our AR group, clients and providers, would consider "adopting" what you have set out has a personal standard. It would raise the tenor of our discussions.

Thanks, Russ, for you well considered suggestion. Kudude

I am both a consumer (a hunter) and a provider(but not in the hunting industry) and have been for longer than I care to remember. Over time I've developed some rules of thumb as a privider. The customer may not always be right but he/she is always the customer. However, being the customer does not relieve him/her of the responsibility for the consequences of his/her actions. The relationship is between a consumer who is an amature and a professional. As a professional provider of a service, I always reserve the right to terminate the relationship. Very early, I spend a LOT of time making sure that the customer and I have established a clearly understood set of commenly held expectations for the results of our relationship. If we can't, I don't accept the business. I simply don't want to accept bad business.
It seems to mne that a PH can assess the client's capabilities and match them to the PH's understanding of the client's expectations. That assessment should be the initial step in the negotiation for the contract between them. Follow that assessment with an open dialog with the client and establish the final agreement on expectations. If this can't be done, don't take the client, it's bad business.
I don't mean to infer that this is an easy process or one that never fails. Merely that it's a very good basis for the PH and hunter to start to uinderstand each other. For example, there is nothing more basic for a successful hunt than proper bullet placement. Ideally, a PH needs to know if the client can place a bullet properly under hunting conditions or even knows where to place the bullet. I suggest that during the hunt is no time to discover the answer to that question. I also realize that discovering that answer before a hunt is contracted is very difficult.
I'm on my soap box, so I'll quit now.