Ok, I watched two African hunting shows I had on TIVO. Outdoors in the Heartland and Bushnell Outdoors with Dave Watson.

I have done my share of ranch hunting, but honestly, to fly all the way to Africa and then set in a blind and shoot a warthog at 245 yards. Big wigs from Winchester, giggling like little girls because they shot an eland (again from a blind at a salt lick by the waterhole). Big, chubby PH who probably couldn't spot and stalk anything but the dinner table.

Or watch Dave Watson, without the benefit of PH present (which I am pretty sure is illegal in RSA) stick an arrow in a kudu and then make a big thing about getting down on his hands and knees to track the blood spore. Spending more time on screen talking about the unique blind (made to look like a big rock) than anything to do with hunting. Another PH who is so fat that one wonders if he needs special suspension on the truck to support his weight.

I hope everyone watching these shows doesn't think this is all Africa has to offer.

Regards,

Terry

I agree Terry. But you have to admit, many Afrikaner men over 40 have develope "dunlap" disease.

biggameetv,

Just for interest sake what is "dunlap" disease

Terry you are correct a PH must be present at all time while a client is hunting in South Africa.

Gerhard

quote:

Originally posted by Jakkals:

Just for interest sake what is "dunlap" disease


Gerhard

When your belly has "dunlapped" over your belt.

It is a unfortunate reality that most "hunting" in SA are done from a vehicle/ blind, and not on foot. This could be because most PH's in SA are not really hunters themselfs, or are just plain lazy, and are doing it for the money (wake up!) or the image...
As I have stated before, if you allow a client to just shoot away from the truck, you are robbing him of most of the experience hunting is all about.

"dunlap" refers to "his belly done lapped over his belt." Comes from an old joke referring to a "spare tire" (Dunlap brand tires)around the middle.

I enjoy ranch hunting in SA. More for the commradarie of the camp/lodge along with the hunting, which can make it an enjoyable family vacation. I can forgive bow hunters for using hides at waterholes but rifle hunters doing so seems perverse given the oportunities (even on a ranch) to hunt as hunting should be. American TV hunting shows have taken on a life of their own. They are typically more production than hunt and create mistaken impressions. It makes it difficult for outfitters to live up to the expectations created when a five day or longer hunt is edited into twenty minutes of tape. Often the client expects to see game every minute and every animal to be of trophy proportions. On my last trip to RSA I noticed more "blinds" built at waterholes obviously too distant for bow hunting. If this is the direction things are going it is unfortunate.

Just finished an East Cape hunt. PH's never put me in a blind. They made the spot-n-stalk game look almost too easy. If you didn't study what they accomplished and what they actually did to accomplish it, you wouldn't notice all the care they exercized. On the other hand, there was often a good deal of luck involved: we went to a concession for a gemsbuck, were informed they were in the back "field" (multiples of 640 acres or so?) which was sort of squishy after all the rain that week making vehicle use difficult, and went to a ridge to scout that field. The gemsbuck were right over the ridge (talk about luck...).

I broke a bunch of the rules -- asked friends who had hunted SA if they had a good time, what the hunts were like, connected through a friend of a friend (one of the no-no's), took my trip, and found that all that my friends had said were true.

Knowing that great hunting opportunities are out there, I can only say I feel very lucky to have avoided some of the other stuff. More -- I am amazed that Winchester would have let that make it to public viewing !?!??!?!

Dan

ah prejudice against fat people, one of the last legal prejudices.

of course "thin" people can't be lazy blah blah blah.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Karl S:
It is a unfortunate reality that most "hunting" in SA are done from a vehicle/ blind, and not on foot. This could be because most PH's in SA are not really hunters themselfs, or are just plain lazy, and are doing it for the money (wake up!) or the image...
QUOTE]

I don't agree with the statement that "most PH's" in South Africa hunt from a vehicle or a blind. Most PH's I know do not. As in all other industries there are lazy ones in the workforce but one could hardly considered that to be the rule and generalise.

As for the statement that they are doing ot for the money... If you call making $100 a day (probably less) making money then I suppose you have a point. Most PH's I know consider them lucky if they get 120 hunting days per year - that is $12K per annum - not sure if money is what it is about.

Hey .404, back from the USSR yet? You sure did earn that buff. Look forward to seeing you soon.

Gentlemen,

There is a much easier way of collecting trophies than sitting in a blind at a waterhole!

I have a very good friend here, who has never been to Africa to hunt.

But, He has a house full of great looking trophies.

He is a great story teller. In fact, he is the closest I have heard anyone tell hunting stories to Capstick!

He would look at one animal, and start telling us in precise details how he saw it from a mile away, how he stalked it, how it ran off and he had to chase it for miles. Before he made the perfect shot. He would then go into great details how he skinned the animal himself, and cut a choice piece of meat to grill on the fire that he made right there in the bush.

I have asked him many times to come to Africa with us to hunt, or just to enjoy being out in the bush with friends.

"No no Saeed! You just continue taking Walter to Africa, and bring me more trophies. I hunt much better in my dreams. And I don't want any of these dreams to be shattered by what you and Walter might do to me in Africa!"

Thats a good one.

That is the difference between hunters and trophy collectors. Trophy collectors shoot animals at waterholes, licks and feeding places, shame on them. Why don't they just buy the trophies, they might save a lot of money. Trophy collecters give the hunting industry a bad and unfortuneately some ph's falls for their laziness

You guys are really tough. Working real hard and bleeding for your game. If I had to go along with your thinking about hunting and meet your expectations I would never go. So I have made a decision. You hunt the way you think you should and I will hunt the way I want and I promise to never share the same camp with you. I will go to
Africa every year for about a month long trip and enjoy myself and not worry about meeting anyone elses expectations but my own. Deal!

quote:

Deal!

Deal!

lb404 Here Here! Another string about how much better (apparently financially poor hunters) many posters here are than the "Fat Cats" I would not like to do a hunt for TV purposes, in fact I turned one down thinking about all the logistics and BS necessary to a show. I love turkey hunting but I am not so good a hunter that I would pass shots because the cameraman did no get a shot of the gobbler struting. This is just one more example of the hollier than thou attiude of many people here.

Just for the record, I prefer the walk and stalk method but how is sitting at a water hole different than sitting in a deer stand in the good old USA or sitting over stinking bait for bear (which I will never do again) in Canada?

I suspect that many hunters from the USA prefer shooting from a blind or from a vehicle. The African PHs I believe are merely adapting to what clients in general want. It's also no doubt faster and more lucrative to drive and shoot a bunch of animals than it is to take a several mile stalk. I made a couple of PHs work a bit; 3 animals hunt and stalk with a handgun. My PH was a little overweight but an excellent hunter. I learned a LOT in SA.

The hunting shows in many case are dumb but I watch them anyway (with the exception of Tred Barta). If the networks are desperate enough to air what I've seen, I believe I have what it takes to be a TV hunter.

Everyone has there own "values" or standards about what constitutes "hunting" versus
killing/collecting. I just watched an episode of Safari Hunters Journal wherein they shot game from a water hole with a permanent food bait station. Hell, the quarry was eating out of a metal trough. By my standards, that's not "hunting",but each to his own.

i dunno but i gotta agree with terry. Its all on the camera. do anything for the camera idea. the other day there was one where some dude was shooting a gator. the thing was obviously already dead, but they re-enact the scene. he shoots accross the river and hits the water 6' in front of the gator. GOOD SHOOTING see the thing is dead. Actually i'm so sick of watching the BS shots, the forest fairys, and the commercials, that the damn shows can carry on without me.

Most of the TV shows is just a glamour BS episode. Yes I have a lot to say about ethical hunting and I agree it is everybodies choice how he would hunt, but to brag about a bag of animals that you shot at a waterhole is not on in Africa. It is another story when deer hunting, the way I understand it, is that there is such a lot of leaves under the trees that you cannot walk without disturbing the whole areas animals. In such a case it is fine to hunt out of a hide. To hunt with a bow without using a hide is very difficult unless you are a very skillfull hunter.

I personally do not like a hide, I get bored and then fall asleep. No animal will dare come close to that hide, I'll beat any hog in a snoring contest.

I enjoy walking in the bush, there is a wealth of intresting things to see while you are hunting. Hunting on foot should not be a marathon, who's got the most endurance, the longest stride and so forth. It should be a slow relaxed walk and if you feel like sitting down at a place for a while that is fine too. Sometimes while sitting down, you see amazing things and sometimes you might get the trophy of your life time. The more you stop , listen and look in the bush, the more succesful you will be.

In anyway a client dictates a hunt, after all it is his hunt, but try and spend more time on your feet, you might be pleasantly suprised at the wonders of the bush

No one is trying to tell you how to hunt. If you want to hunt over water and shoot from the truck - go ahead.

This is a public forum where views and ideas are presented for an open discussion. So don't take it so personally. It is the internet, put it in perspective.

The point is that these two shows are not representative of African hunting. If I had never been to Africa and watched the show where they shot 3 animals over water, I would be thinking to myself, "Why would I want to spend all that money to go to Africa and set in a blind?"

Or watch Dave Watson talk about his high ethical standards of pursuing wounded game when he has just documented his own illegal behavior - hunting without a PH being present?

"Hey Bob, tell us about that eland you have hanging on the wall."

"Well, we got up and had breakfast. The PH drove me out to a blind at a waterhole. I sat in the blind for two hours. The eland came to drink and then went over to the salt block. As he was licking on the salt block - I hammered him. A one shot kill."

A lot of people, who have never been to Africa, read this forum. I want them to know that what they see on TV is not the only way to experience hunting in Africa. Before booking a hunt, they should have a discussion with their outfitter regarding the hunting methods used.

Regards,

Terry

quote:

As for the statement that they are doing ot for the money... If you call making $100 a day (probably less) making money then I suppose you have a point. Most PH's I know consider them lucky if they get 120 hunting days per year - that is $12K per annum - not sure if money is what it is about

quote:

and are doing it for the money (wake up!) or the image...

As you can see Chris, I said that there is not a lot of money in doing what we love. Good to hear there are other PH's out there that enjoys the stalk.

There are exceptions to the PH/ hunter relationship where archery is concerned. A PH may have two archery hunters and place them in blinds to be left by themselves for a hunt from that location. With each hunter having a radio and able to contact the PH when game is shot.

The rules get fuzzy from there about the client leaving the blind. It's not accepted but difficult to do much about if the client is left alone.

I don't make this a practice but clearly recall the rules being taught to us when I was in the PH academy

JJHACK
I beg to differ. the only time a PH can leave anyone alone in a blind (or have more than 2 clients at a time), is with wingshooting.

JJ,

Watson went into detail about how he was hunting alone. The PH had left with the rifle hunters and Watson was driven to the blind by a tracker.

Regards,

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by T.Carr:
JJ,

Watson went into detail about how he was hunting alone. The PH had left with the rifle hunters and Watson was driven to the blind by a tracker.

Regards,

Terry

Terry

Don't you think you are over reacting on the hunting without a PH? It was a plainsgame hunt in RSA, how much safer can it get? He obviously had at least one cameraman with him and probably a tracker. Probably wasn't room for 5 people in the blind.

Shooting from a blind is the reprehensible part of the show. But then I guess everyone knows their limitations.

I can't believe that you or almost anyone else here hasn't hunted alone or with just a tracker in RSA at one time or another. Never walked out of camp with your rifle to see what's up? Never strolled over the hill during the afternoon nap without the normal entourage?

I'm not worried about his safety. Watson made it very clear that he was hunting alone (even doing his own camera work). It just seems odd to me that he made such a big deal of doing it on his own which is in violation of the local law. I don't think a TV show should be giving the impression that one can go to Africa and hunt by themselves, even if it is bowhunting from a blind.

If one wants to get picky about it, if he imports that trophy, he will probably be in violation of the Lacey Act.

Regards,

Terry

one of the most pitiful videos I have ever seen was from Jack Brittingham the Bots safari one. These yahoos were sitting in a concrete blind doign the 'treestand whisper' and after the shot all talked about how great a 'hunt' it was. My ass. From the lodge to the blind and back to the lodge, what a hell of a way to spend a week in africa...or any other top notch hunting area...

-Baxter

The one frequently repeated scenario I see in the hunting shows is the fake track job. The hunters will be following up some blood trail before you get the perspective of the cameraman sitting behind the downed animal as the hunters approach it still tracking. The hunters approach the cameraman and act "surprised" as they walk up on their trophy with great relief that they have found their quarry. Do these shows think the viewer is stupid?

The good memories if my plains game hunt in RSA were of outings that yielded no game but involved just getting out and walking in several different ranches, each had something charming and unique. My best "trophy" is the bushbuck that we hunted hard for but never saw. He's still in the bush somewhere growing his horns.

What I gathered from the PH's I met in RSA (four or five, evenings were quite the social event)was that they would try to hunt in a way the client was comfortable with. If you wanted to hunt over a waterhole, out of a truck, stalk till your legs fell off or with a spotlight, they were going to provide. And somewhere someone on this forum uses those methods at home so they would think it's natural to use them for hunting anywhere.

quote:

Originally posted by Spring:
The one frequently repeated scenario I see in the hunting shows is the fake track job. The hunters will be following up some blood trail before you get the perspective of the cameraman sitting behind the downed animal as the hunters approach it still tracking. The hunters approach the cameraman and act "surprised" as they walk up on their trophy with great relief that they have found their quarry. Do these shows think the viewer is stupid?

Yes!

I think that if anyone reads this thread or others on this forum they will never go to Africa. If you read this forum it pretty plain that the only hunter wanted in Africa is a person able to stalk miles and miles then leave a thousand dollar tip.
In reality I never saw a over weight ph. Its your money so hunt like you want in the truck in a blind whatever you are on a vacation enjoy it. If your like me one of the working masses who is carrying some extra weight dont worry about it your money spends as good as the other guys and they will be glad to have you.

As has been hashed out on AR many times, there are 'good' and 'bad' outfitters and PH's in RSA, just like anywhere else.

The guys I spent time in the field with were almost all emphatic about game not being shot off vehicles, yes, sometimes the stalk was only a short one from the vehicle, and on occassion a shot was taken off the bakkie...if the client so desired, but not as a result of the PH making them do so. To say 'most' is not true IMO.

Most Afrikaners over 40 have 'dunlap' disease?
Well, yes some, and I too wonder about the girth of some PH's and their ability to be highly mobile. However, to say most 40+ Afrikaners (what about english males...you know sout piele!) are fat...that coming from someone who resides in the US? (and this not meant as some political dig...enough of that on other forums) Hmmm...since when did the middle class there slim down so dramatically?

And yes, I agree, the emphasis on the huge 'effort' of rifle hunting from blinds over salt/water and things like actually crawling, do wear thin on TV shows!

quote:

Originally posted by T.Carr:

If one wants to get picky about it, if he imports that trophy, he will probably be in violation of the Lacey Act.

Could you please post a quote of the relevant section of the act and any pertinent case law interpreting that section? Thank you.

Guys,

Even with a plains game hunt it is illeagal in South Africa to hunt without a PH.

Gerhard

Terry

I have been to Africa six times and have hunted in RSA,Zimbabwe,and Namibia.On all six trips I have been bowhunting.On each and every trip I have sat alone in a blind for at least part of the trip.On most trips I sat alone all the time.On some trips ,when my son was young , he sat with me and we traded shots and video'd each others shots.

Hunting alone may be against the law , but it darn sure does not seem to be a rare occurance.

I will admit that when hunting dangerous game I have always been accompanied by a gun packing PH.This was not presented as an option , rather it was said to be compulsary.Also I was not sent out tracking game by myself.The rule of thumb seems to be contact the PH by radio and he would either come or send a tracker.In one instance the PH would drive by my blind at 2:00 PM and again at dark.If I had done no shooting at 2:00 I would signal him from a distance to come no closer and he would drive on to come back at dark.

As to this being a dull way to hunt Africa,I can only state that I love it.I have seen some great wildlife and some wonderfull things from the solitude of my blind.

Do I enjoy stalking also? Absolutely.But one does not have to be enjoyed at the expense of the other.Both can be done and both can be enjoyed.They both have something to offer that is unique unto itself.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by T.Carr:

If one wants to get picky about it, if he imports that trophy, he will probably be in violation of the Lacey Act.

Could you please post a quote of the relevant section of the act and any pertinent case law interpreting that section? Thank you.

Section 3372 (a)(2)(A)

It is unlawful for any person -
to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase in interstate or foreign commerce--

(A) any fish or wildlife taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law or regulation of any State or in violation of any foreign law;

Let me paraphrase it for you.

It is illegal to import any wildlife taken in violation of any foreign law.

Regards,

Terry

It seems a bit odd for an American to claim another nation is populated with a lot of fat people. :-)

so if I dont do it your way im wrong, fat, lazy and cant shoot. did i leave anything out? oh yes if I have mony and dont do it your way im also evil.
you working class hero I bow down to your greatness and beg forgiveness of your high bigness. for ever having hunted from a stand and not being the perfect specimin of manhood that you are. two facts you should know. sitting real still with your mouth closed is very hard for some people"maybe imposible ". and everything on tv is not true.

just a rant no need to respond

Like Terry, I have seen some shows with PHs that were so large it seemed that it would affect their mobility. I suffer from a negative waistline so I don't want to throw stones, but I want to hunt with a PH who is more fit than me. The person I want to hunt with spends a lot of time afield and not so much in front of the television or behind a desk (that would be more like me ).

I have sat in blinds more than my share but the most enjoyable parts of my hunt in Africa were successful stalks. That would have changed if a leopard had showed up while I was in the blind.

Everyone should hunt how they like so long as it is legal, but I wish that when they recreate the shots on these TV shows they could move the PH and hunter a little farther from the truck and the fence line.

No, I do not think I am better than the other hunters here - in fact most of you could no doubt outlast me on a hike or best me in a sprint. But I aspire to hunt more on foot and less on a truck, and I think that the picture I get from the shows that I enjoy more reflects this. The PHs in Dangerous Game
and Tracks Across Africa look like they can spend the day in the field.