The Zambezi Valley auctions are coming up shortly and I was wondering if anyone would interested in this type of hunt.

I have prepared a small presentation for anyone who might be interested, please e-mail me at grpauto@telkomsa.net and I will send it through - alternatively if anyone can load it onto this thread that would be great.

Hopefully some of the experts like Ganyana can have a look and give us his thoughts on the concept.

I would be very interested in a self guided hunt. But I would not even dream about it with all the trouble in Zimbabwe. With out having a person you could truly trust in country I believe it would be impossible to have a successful hunt. If you want to go on a unguided buffalo hunt go to Cameroon. I did and had a great hunt, killed a Buffalo, Roan, Bush buck, Hartebeest and a Red river forest hog. Give me a email if you want a contact in Cameroon.

If you email the details to me I will be happy to post them for you.

saeed@emirates.net.ae

Thanks Saeed an e-mail has been sent.

Robert Johnson - this thread is not only in respect of 2008, if anyone is keen for 2009 the info remains the same and whilst planning a year ahead I sure that the trust concerns would be addressed.

Sorry I am already a year behind comments related to 2009 and 2010

email sent

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I received the following PDF file, and I am posting it for your information.

Please right click, and safe to your computer.


Here is the details of this hunt.

I have watched these auctions over the years, and generally have been quite surprised at the prices paid...they seemed to unjustifiably high. I think part of it was the fact that local outfitters were allowed to pay in local currency, and then of course the hunts were resold in dollars. Foreign bidders had to bid in USD. The exchange rates that were applied at the time gave a great advantage to the local buyer. However, in recent auctions, everyone has to bid in USD so that dynamic may have changed making the hunts much more reasonable. Andrew's proposal makes a lot of sense if the auction prices are now more reasonable. Perhaps someone could publish the auction results from last year?

This is quite interesting.
Í can talk for a big group of Spanish hunters and I know several of them might be interested.
Me myself I know of some young PHs in Zim that can also be willing to participate if required.
What I propouse is to make a group of interested hunters here in AR, who will be able to named somebody to help in coordination and control over there, together with Citizen Hunter, and try to organized this up for first time, to see what happens.
The main thing here for me, is the difficulty to begin a relationship with a new friend in Zim I have never met before, and send him money in advance. We must work out a way to solve this situation, so we all can benefit of this great opportunity for real hunt you are offering to us.
Anyway, Citizen Hunter, thank you in advance for your time and for wanting to share this opportunity with us...hope we can work somethig out.

Best regards.

They were not reasonable. Unless you were working a plan, buying two camps, 4 extra buffalo and effectively running six safaris in 30 days... I couldn't see an angle. For a lone person- cheeper to book with Ingwe safaris (or chifuti or any one of the other top operators)

If you buy the extra animals and spread the cost...yes, could do it, especially if you are saving $100 a day for the PH (you are still running a vehicle so you carry the $50-75 a day that the PH is paid for the use of his vehicle.)

Main thing is - it's fun and you can do things your way. Want to make it into a double rugged back pack safari- not much extra hassle. want to get out of bed at 10 and hunt till 3pm? your privaledge.

PS invest in some recent air photo's and look for the hidden waterholes in the Jess that nobody ever checks if you want a good daga boy, or hire a parks officer (about $25 per day) to act as a local guide (you may get a game scout who knows the area, or you may be allocated a "green bomber" that has been foisted on parks and is terrified of monkeys let alone buffalo!)

I hunted out of Nyakasanga E camp last July.

I'll try to get some pictures posted tomorrow.

Good day Gentlemen, thanks for your comments.

As Ganyana mentioned, the main thing with the auction hunts is that they are fun and infinitely flexible i.e. if you want 5 star luxury it's possible, alternatively if you are looking for a double rugged back pack safari so be it. The hunter decides on his budget and structures the hunt accordingly.

I believe that the cost comparison which I prepared is fairly accurate - please feel free to analyse it and make comments. With the greatest respect to the comments made by Ganyana,I would like to state that while his scenario of buying extra camps, animals and packing this into a 30 day safari is not incorrect - far more practical alternatives are possible as identified in the information that Saeed posted on my behalf. The fundamental factors that determine the overall cost in the comparison are the daily rate and the cost per animal. The cost per animal is higher in the auction hunt, however, no daily rate is applicable. The contribution to running costs that I included in my comparison is extremely reasonable - where would you get several vehicles, boats, fuel, drinks, food. hunting guides, fishing guides,skinners, trackers,transfers and use of all the hunting equipment etc. in one of the worlds best big game hunting concessions for less than $ 70.00 per day.

The essence of my proposal was not to launch a commercial venture but rather to offer a cost effective hunting alternative which would be beneficial to all the parties concerned. The trust factor is obviously a major factor and one that I had considered. I am sure that an arrangement can be made that is to everyones satisfaction and have a few ideas that I would rather discuss directly with interested parties.

Once again thanks for the interest shown by everyone.

Hi all, Citizen Hunter, I love the idea of a self guided hunt, so thanks for bringing this up, I know you are trying to set this hunt up for Buff and PG , but how diffucult and how much would it be to make an Elephant hunt on one of these auction areas ?

thanks , Markus

What can you tell our friends from abroad about getting their trophies out? Apart of course of what is explained in your very well prepared writ? Any guarantees?

quote:

Originally posted by Penetrater:
Hi all, Citizen Hunter, I love the idea of a self guided hunt, so thanks for bringing this up, I know you are trying to set this hunt up for Buff and PG , but how diffucult and how much would it be to make an Elephant hunt on one of these auction areas ?

thanks , Markus

I too like this idea and also wondering about adding ele to it.
it would be cool to get something like this going on a regular basis---a group where each person could opt in or out from year to year, but be part of a larger group that does this auction hunt area yearly. sounds like a fun and more affordable way to go to me.

I did one of these auction hunts last summer. Actually my PH from RSA bought one and was using it as a way to get a buff hunt in Zim when our plan A fell through.

Accomodations are definitely not 5- star.

Pantry



Shower; on day 2 when the pumped water ran out we'd hang a shower bucket off the shower.



Similarly when the pumped water ran out, we'd use buckets brought up from the Zambezi in the background to fill the toilet tank for it to flush.



The scenery definitely made it worthwhile.



We did have our own tents for sleeping. It was definitely a great experience for me. Saw plenty of game daily, and lots of elephants. Additionally this place is teeming with waterbuck and some very skittish impala. First 24 hrs. saw ele, buff and lion, and had heard leopard at night. We only stayed 2 days, but that was long enough for me to take a buff and hippo.

With a previous client, my PH had taken a leopard (3rd on the bait that sitting), and had almost had hyenas in the blind with them.

If one gets the chance to go, Nyakasanga is an incredible hunting area.

As far as getting trophies out, mine were delivered to Bromley's the day we headed back to RSA, haven't heard a thing about them since then.

PM Sent

Infinito - the procedure for the exportation of the trophies is as follows:
1) The agent for the non-resident bidder registers with National Parks prior to the auction.
2) The foreign hunters name will then appear on the hunting licence.
3) A Form TR2 is completed, this includes all the information relating to the hunt, proof of payment in forex etc.
4) Reserve Bank Approval Number for which a fee is payable.
5) Plastic CITES tags which are available from National Parks.
The abovementioned will enable the taxidermist to undertake the export of the trophies. We will take the hunter to the taxidermist so that the necessry arrangements can be finalised. I have a shipping clerk who can follow up if required.

Cable 68 - How about a few pictures of your trophies ? Those buildings at E camp have been like that for years, however the plumbing looks like a more recent upgrade. We just take tents, our own water pump and do our own thing. Richard Harland did an article for Man Magnum magazine a while back on a hunt out of E camp - this was definately 5 star.

Markus / Quickshot - as shown in the information additional animals are available e.g. elephant. I will have to pull out the old catalogues and see how much they were going for.

I bought a camp in Nyakasanga this year, along with extra not included quota, including elephant.

Elephant in Nyakasanga will go for quite a high price because of real possibilities of excellent ivory.

I made a deal with Roger Whittall to outfit my camp, trading Roger a couple of buff he could sell hunts for. The Parks facilities are pretty much shot, so its a matter of bringing in generators and pumps, lighting, etc, as CitizenHunter describes.

If I were going to do a self guided hunt, I wouldn't do it too early, before the jess thins out. Some of the Nyakasanga elephants were pretty cheeky and the extra visibility of a later hunt, say second half of July, August, might help you avoid a problem.

A couple of comments about Nyakasanga:
1. Too many people hunting there at one time
2. Too much traffic because of the photo concessions and Mana Pools and the fishing camps
3. Too much river traffic, including too many pretty load motor boats, mostly from the Zambian side
4. You can hear one of the Zambian resorts' music in the evening from a couple of the camps, which is a crying shame.
5. Lots of plains game, lots of lions, lots of elephants, plenty of buff. Lots and lots of zebra, and they are not scittish, I wonder if they are hunted there.

I think Sapi, which is largely jess blocks, would have a whole lot less traffic. There are fishing camps, but Mana Pools is adjacent and to the South, and there is little reason for Mana Pools visitors to come down the valley from the north.

JPK

It used to be that the hunt was limited to the person that bought the hunt and the hunt needed to be conducted on the dates for which the hunt was set. If you did not take the game on your license by the end of the assigned days, the hunt was over and no one else could use the allocation.

Now it seems that people treat it as a concession running multiple hunters off of the game bag for one or two and if unsuccesful pass on the game bag to another hunter at a later date. Clearly not in accordance with the published rules, but it appears that is not stopping people.

With several hunts scheduled in the area at one time you are bound to see someone, however you can get lost there if you really want. Lax rules and several hunting off one bag may account for the heavy traffic.

I wouldn't be surprised if the hunting companies that previously bought the auction hunts are less aggressive this year, if indeed following the shows there is a surplus of buffalo tags in their primary concessions. Could maybe/possibly be cheaper then previous years...

quote:

Originally posted by TNJohn:
It used to be that the hunt was limited to the person that bought the hunt and the hunt needed to be conducted on the dates for which the hunt was set. If you did not take the game on your license by the end of the assigned days, the hunt was over and no one else could use the allocation.

Now it seems that people treat it as a concession running multiple hunters off of the game bag for one or two and if unsuccesful pass on the game bag to another hunter at a later date. Clearly not in accordance with the published rules, but it appears that is not stopping people.

With several hunts scheduled in the area at one time you are bound to see someone, however you can get lost there if you really want. Lax rules and several hunting off one bag may account for the heavy traffic.

This is not the case and you are mistaken. First, the hunts were never limited to just one person or even two, it has been common practice to share these hunts, as CitizenHunter is proposing. The quota is still only good for the period the camp has been bought for. The purchaser of the quota is free to share it or sell it though, just as in the past.

There is no real getting lost in Nyakasanga, its just too small of an area for the number of people hunting there or traveling to and from the fishing camps or photo concessions within it or Mana Pools, let alone the Zambian activity. The limited road net actually excentuates the smallness, by forcing all of the trafic onto limited roads. And the game is affected as well, at least the elephants. About the only area offering at least a bit of isolation is east beyond the security road, up in the hills toward the Escarpment. But the buff and eles aren't there in the early season, while there is food in the jess.

You want isolation, just drive about three hours north east to Chewore. You can get lost there and, if you want to go back past the last roads, you could walk for weeks without seeing another hunter, or human being.

JPK

JPK just went back and found your hunt reports on this hunt, great reading ( and pics) lots of information, Thanks !

Steve Scott is a friend of mine allso, and yes he is a good guy to have to share a camp , with that said, your one hell of a guy ! giving away some of your quota to a total stranger ,,,well my hats off to you my good man !! As to his show its called "The Safari Hunters Journal" not shure how many channels is playing on ,but for shure its on Versus now.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:


You want isolation, just drive about three hours north east to Chewore. You can get lost there and, if you want to go back past the last roads, you could walk for weeks without seeing another hunter, or human being.

JPK

JPK,

The letter of the law and the actual practice are different. I don't know what how the 2009 rules will read, but here are some from the previous years.

If you walk off the roads you can find plenty of areas that are not affected by the road traffic on either the river road or the road leading to Mana and Sapi. There are areas in Zim and Africa that are much less inhabited and/or affected by locals. Still this is a great place.

John

RESALE OF PURCHASED CAMPS: Provided a hunt has not been cancelled by the Director-General for any failure to comply with the terms and conditions of the sale or the hunting permit, or the provisions the Act or any regulations made, the purchaser may be permitted to re-sell a hunt he has purchased in accordance with the circumstances set out in Paragraph 11 of the Hunting Permit. Should the Director-General authorize to re-sell any hunt, the purchaser may only recover, from the subsequent purchaser (approved by the Director-General), at least to the price paid by the bidder. The Auctioneers can only assist with the resale after the Director-General's permission has been obtained. New camp owner to pay 10% of the selling price to Director-General.

CO-HUNTERS INFORMATION
A successful bidder shall furnish Parks with the name of his co-hunter at the time of obtaining his permit to hunt and the name of both hunters shall appear on the permit.

PURCHASE AND PARTICIPATION RESTRICTIONS
ONLY TWO HUNTERS are allowed to participate in each hunt. Hunters are allowed to purchase more than one hunt.

The successful purchaser must personally participate in the hunt and his name must be declared to the Auctioneer at the time of registration.

In each camp the hunting party should comprise two (2) hunters who may be accompanied by up to a maximum of eighteen (18) persons whether visitors or camp assistants. The first eight (8) persons inclusive of hunters are free. Any excess persons are levied US$150.00 for foreigners or ZW$800 000.00 for locals per person thus the hunting party may not exceed a maximum of twenty (20) persons on aggregate for the period of the hunt. Fees are to be paid at Marongora prior to entering into the area.

UNSHOT ANIMALS
No refunds will be made for any unshot animal.

ONLY TROPHIES BELONGING TO FOREIGN HUNTERS WHO HAVE PAID IN FOREIGN CURRENCY ARE EXPORTABLE.

Please make certain that all trophies to be exported comply with all CITES Import / Export Regulations, Refer: Control of Goods (Import/ Export) Wildlife Regulations S.I. 76 of 1997.

TNJohn,

The first portion of your citation refers to the camp and resale of the camp. It does not discuss or limit the sale of the quota. An outfitter charges a daily rate for the outfitting, but he is not selling the camp.

The later portion states "only two hunters allowed to participate in each hunt" and then quotes the camp "should comprise two hunters." But a hunt is different than a camp. I was told that so long as two hunters are the number in camp, more than two may may shoot the quota.

Regarding this quote, "If you walk off the roads you can find plenty of areas that are not affected by the road traffic on either the river road or the road leading to Mana and Sapi. There are areas in Zim and Africa that are much less inhabited and/or affected by locals. Still this is a great place."

The game is directly affected by the traffic, in particular the elephants, which often travel and/or cross the roads. As soon as the traffic begins they begin to first stick to the jess and then to leave the concession, concentration in the Sugar Estates and the photo safari area and heading back to Mana Pools, sometimes Rifa.

More importantly, you run into traffic frequently, at all hours too.

To cross diagonally each jess block takes maybe six or eight hours of walking. I know this because we did this. Don't forget that in addition to the river road and the security road, there are a couple of (well used) diagonal roads that act as shortcuts for people heading to the hunting camps, photo concession and the fishing camps. Throw in the overabundance of boat traffic...

I would hunt Nyakasanga for elephants in a heartbeat though, while wishing that the traffic were restricted to the security road or the river road.

JPK

Hunt and camp are the same. The quota is attached to the hunt and identified by camp and hunt period. When you arrive at Marongora you complete your permit which indicates the animals on your quota, the camp and the name of the other hunter. At this same time you present the receipt from the auction for your hunt and any extra animals.

Your outfitter does not buy the hunt and the quota, an individual purchases the hunt and quota. A registered agent may represent you at auction. You can hire a PH but he does not control the quota. You the hunter and purchaser of the hunt controls the quota.

What has been done of late does not follow the auction hunt rules. People buying hunts and then selling off parts of them to someone else or operating as if this were a concession and selling hunts in advance of the auction. I am sure that if you know the right guy and with a few dollars you can do what you want with these hunts.

The point is that it is not within the prescribed rules and regulations and not what was intended to be done with these hunts. Because the rules are not being followed in this area the prices in Forex are well above what you would pay to hunt across the tar road in Rifa or up on the escarpment in Makuti. Now certian people purchase with Zim $ and resell the hunt.

I dont know Citizen Hunter but acknowledge that he is trying to put together the hunts as they are intended. His benefit would most likely be the meat and experience.

TNJohn,

You miss the point regarding outfitters buying camps and selling hunts. When X outfitter buys the camp, he owns the quota. He can do as he pleases with it. He may or may not resell his camp too, and that is no matter. He may certainly charge any fee that a purchaser agrees to pay to outfit the camp and/or for staff and/or for providing a PH. Any of this would fit within what you argue is the correct reading of the regs.

As for three hunters, say one there for the whole of the alotted days and two there each for different halfs of the time, there is no problem and it fits within the regs too. Each of three hunters who shot the quota associated with the camp that I purchased (I was one of those three) had the required liscenses. I paid in US so the trophies were all exportable, though one hunter chose not to export his (to save on expenses.)

Outfitters selling hunts prior to the auction are conditionally selling the hunts. "If I can get the camp at the auction..." Nothing wrong with this, and it too is within even your reading of the regs.

As for the original intent, you may be right, but the reading of the regs doesn't rule out what is being done. See for example the regs change to prevent another Chifuti/Sapi situation - but it took a regs change! BTW, if the camp is paid for in Zim $'s, the trophies are not exportable. A foreign national may not pay in Zim $'s either, according to what regs I read.

No palms were greased regarding my hunt, either with respect tot he quota or with respect to the liscenses.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Citizen Hunter:
The Zambezi Valley auctions are coming up shortly and I was wondering if anyone would interested in this type of hunt.

I have prepared a small presentation for anyone who might be interested, please e-mail me at grpauto@telkomsa.net and I will send it through - alternatively if anyone can load it onto this thread that would be great.

Hopefully some of the experts like Ganyana can have a look and give us his thoughts on the concept.

Citizen,
so where are you on this concept--has there been any interest? how many?

are you still planning on this project??

I am interested if there is suffient organization to make this plan workable

Quickshot - I have received a good number of responses and am currently finalizing the details with a few people who are interested. I am happy with the results, hopefully once the whole process is complete we can submit a report with photo's etc.

Thanks to all concerned and those who showed interest in the concept.

JPK, I can see that you are possibly an attorney as that is how one would look at those regs. It doesent say I cant do it so therefore I can.

Some of these hunts are not being conducted as intended. Citizen Hunter is proposing to hunt as intended. Email him and Ganyana.

This hunt used to be a great deal for a few guys to go hunt in a rustic setting. For several years the Sapi area has been run as a concession, but that does not mean that what is being done is kosher. Over the past few years it seems the same practices in Sapi are occuring in the Nyakasanga. This is driving up the prices. JPK's hunt helps explain some of the why, most of it is some are able to purchase in Zim at a mcuh lower exchange rate.

If you have the chance go.

Andrew, pls check your PMs......

The Prospectus for year’s auction hunt is out and there are some changes. Reduced game bags and all hunts to be paid in US dollars. Should be a good thing long term. A few of the other purported rules are:

ONLY TWO HUNTERS are allowed to participate in each hunt. Hunters are allowed to purchase more than one hunt but not exceeding 15 hunts in Nyakasanga and 10 hunts in Sapi.

The successful purchaser must personally participate in the hunt and his name must be declared to the Auctioneer at the time of registration.

• Sale of Extra animals: These shall be sold as separate and independent lots in Nyakasanga and Sapi Areas, after the sale of the respective camps. For eligibility to bid for these lot animals, a hunter must have purchased a camp in that particular area. These animals must be hunted within the specific period of time stipulated for that specific camp.

• RESALE OF PURCHASED CAMPS: Provided a hunt has not been cancelled by the Director-General for any failure to comply with the terms and conditions of the sale or the hunting permit, or the provisions of the Act or any regulations made, the purchaser may be permitted to resell a hunt he has purchased in accordance with the circumstances set out in Paragraph 11 of the Hunting Permit. Should the Director-General authorize to re-sell any hunt, the purchaser may only recover, from the subsequent purchaser (approved by the Director-General), at most the price paid by the bidder. KM Auctions can only assist with the resale after the Director-General’s permission has been obtained. The new camp owner will have to pay 10 % of the selling price to the Director-General.

• The agent’s professional status and capacity in which he proposes to represent a potential/prospective bidder (i.e. safari operator, travel agent, safari outfitter, relative, professional hunter or self).

• The commission the agent intents to charge his client as agency fees.

• Full details of the manner in which the prospective agent expects to receive his agency fees.

• Full names, addresses (business and residential), and status of the client/s whose interests the prospective agent intents to represent.

• If in addition to acting as an agent for the bidder at the auction, the prospective agent intents to render some other professional services of any nature to the hunter/s (e.g. professional hunter), then full details of the nature of these services and fees to be charged must be given.

• An agent must give proof that give proof that payment in Foreign Currency can be effected at the conclusion of the sale.

o An agent (approved by the Director-General) must present a photocopy of the Director-General’s authorization to the Auctioneers upon registration.

o An agent (approved by the Director-General) will be permitted to purchase hunts solely on behalf of persons/clients named in the agent’s application. Agents are advised that any deviation from this condition of sale will result in the cancellation of the purchase and hunt.

Sad sad sad last time I looked these hunts were for Zim citizens only and the rules strictly forbade foreigners, not to mention that they also precluded PH's from guiding them.

Oh well everyone needs to make a buck I guess.

No offence to any of the well intentioned posters above but these hunts have gone a long way from being put out for local hunters to now being pimped by foreigners on the internet.

Age is hell!!!

quote:

Originally posted by TNJohn:
The Prospectus for year’s auction hunt is out and there are some changes. Reduced game bags and all hunts to be paid in US dollars...

And there is an 8% admin fee and 15% VAT being added.

While the buyers of the auction hunts may have changed, given the restructuring, more actual money (forex) should find it's way to Parks as compared to previous years - and thats a good thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill C:
I wouldn't be surprised if the hunting companies that previously bought the auction hunts are less aggressive this year, if indeed following the shows there is a surplus of buffalo tags in their primary concessions. Could maybe/possibly be cheaper then previous years...

Any feedback regarding how the auctions went this year? Would suspect prices were down...anybody get a camp?

Got an email from ph friend this evening. He bought a hunt for 50% of last year. This would have been the year to go if I had my ducks in a row.