I find this all terribly interesting, reassuring, and a confirmation of historical facts.

If the test method is valid as it would correspond to game, it shows that the reputation of the old round nose solid bullets of the .375 H&H and the .450's (of which the .458 WM is one) as having great, or maybe sufficient, penetration is again validated.

It also shows that sectional density counts, and as shown in the case of the .450 at 2400 fps, that the Penetration Index is indeed valid on a relative basis (i.e., bullet energy counts too!).

Thanks a bunch for sharing your test results.

I will sleep reassured tonight!

A Practical Test,

May I suggest all of us band together and conduct a practical test on medium and large bore FMJ's???

Why dont each of us select a caliber, begining with 9.3, .375, .416, .404 Jeff, .458 Winchester, .450 Dakota, .470 nitro, .505, and .577.

Each shooter will be responsioble for testing conventional and monometal FMJ's in the same stop box.

Because Norbert and Gerards bullets do not allegendly do as well as they should in a wooden stop box, we will use one made from as many rectangular plastic waste paper cans as necessary.

Mike Brady from North Fork found a style that is cheap and readily available at WALMART. These have the advantage of having a FLAT rather than curved side like the 5 gallon water buckets I used in my test of premium soft points.

We elevate the water containers to waist high on three saw horses. Lay three 2 x 6 over saw horse and put water containers on that.

Shoot at 25 yards. Chrono graph shots!

Compare penetration here on the AR forumn.

This is alot better than me doing all the work and you guys saying it does not apply to your favorite bullets!

Ill begin by offering to test the 450 Dakota.

Tests should include Barnes monometal RN of both .300 and .330 SD, new style Hornady, Woodleigh, and North Fork Flat Nose when they are available later this year. And Norberts Super Penetrator if he can legally ship some to the user. I can also use the last of my GSFN.

Who will join the test?

I'm sure some other folks are going to comment here, but I'll go ahead and say it-- these results don't correlate to behavior in soft tissue in game. Maybe there's some correlation to elephant head shots, but not for body shots.

The flat nosed rounds will greatly outpenetrate the round noses in the "soft tissue" case.

Pertinax

Everything I have ever read also says that the flats will outpenetrate the rounds, but I can't prove it. I will be watching this thread for more experienced people on this matter. It is one of interest to me. I did have one experience with a very flat bullet that preformed exceptionally but alas, whats one experience...

FN vs RN,

I plan on shooting the same bullets into two 55 gallon plastic barrels laid on their side some day to see if the same results hold true in water. But it took me two years to complete this study.

Its difficult to measure penetration in water barrels that are four feet tall. I'll have to cut an access slot along the top of the second one and retreive the bullets with a stick and glob of wax like forensic types do with a recovery tank.

Its no fun, and Mike La Grange correlated his tests (in the stop box) to the 3,000 some head of buff and elephant he shot.

The FLat Nose crowd cant have it both ways. It penetrates more and it also causes more tissue destruction.

McPherson proved in IWBA calibrated gelatin that the SWC and WC had less penetration that a RN and I dont see why a rifle bullet should be any different than a pistol bullet. He took his projectiles up to 5,000 fps. And remember that IWBA correlates the density of their gelatin to live animals. (I am a member of IWBA).

My plan for the 450 gr Barnes RN and North Fork FN is elephant and maybe hippo, nothing else. So yes, I am trying to simulate a head shot!

LaGrange thought the stop box correlated to what he was shooting. I dont know as I have not shot 3,000 elephants.

It does rule out the 500 gr Kodiak FN, 400 gr Barnes RN, and also the well regarded GSFN. And thats why I test bullets.

If any of you guys think differently, prove it to me in a water tank!

PS Will, I did indeed sleep well last night knowing everything is as we thought it was!

Andy

I have shot a lot of buffalo with both the flat nose and the round nose solids over the years..I have no way of telling which one will penetrate the most but they seem close to equal, they both will lodge in the neck area on a going away shot and on ocassion will exit on a lenghwise shot, but that depends on angle of the shot I suspect..In terms of exactness, it only makes since the RN would have the most penetration by nature of its design.

Bottom line is both go in a straight line and both have more than ample penitration on both elephant and Buffalo..

The only difference I have been able to detect is the flat nose does more internal damage, cuts a more open hole and causes more outside bleeding, leaving a better blood trail as rule..Both suit me fine, but I prefer the flat nose.

The new monolithic Cup Points from North Fork in all probability have less penitration than any solid, but they penetrate more than enough for Buffalo from any angle and they also show some real nice expansion but the cross section is not that of say a Barnes X, but enough to do massive internal damage..I was really impressed with the new cup points on buff and they really hammer those black bulls, you can hear them splat when the hit and the buff just shudder on each hit..Quite a bullet, that seems to be the best of both worlds IMO. It will penetrate consideralby deeper than any other expanding bullet I know off..

Andy,



my cans are shown below. It is sold by various discounters and do-it-yourself markets filled with purified water (aqua dest.) for less than $ 2. Wall thickness is 0.5 mm.

I use it broadside or small side facing the rifle at a distance of 100 meters. Lid closed. 100 meters because also with exotic bullet design any yaw is avoided. At 2 meters of cans I usually stop the bullet with a 12 mm steel plate.







Bullet stopped at 2 meters:

Andy you said you wanted .577 as well? I could have a crack at 650/750gn woodleighs(SP and FMJ) with a 585 wildcat- 1:22 twist- once the new dies are mailed from CH. Also we have the first lot of Gerards 585 cal 640gn solids here from 2001.

Of course a shipping delay for any other bullets which I would have to import.

Let me know if you can't find any of the US 585 owners or real 577's to do it.



Karl.

Will,

Thanks for comming on board!

Do you actually have a 1-12 and a 1-14 .416???

My data was with 1-10 .416 rather than std 1-14. (I borrowed Bill Steigers beautiful Al Bieson .416 which had a quick twist).

A two liter coke bottle is too small Im afraid. We would never collect any bullets. They veer of course easily when they hit a curved surface. Remember these things will be penetrating something like 6-9 feet of water.

I cant even stop a GSFN with my 5 gallon water buckets I used for the soft point test. We really need a perfectly flat, rectangular target.

If you and RIP check out Walmart, am sure we can find a std container to use. We need alot of them, so cost is a factor. (It costs about $100 in wood for each set of boards in a stop box).

I am thinking that one way to reuse say a 5 gallon rectangular waste paper basket (made in China for cheap), would be to line it with a 13 gallon plastic garbage bag, and if they hold water we could re-use the containers that were not split in two by the bullet. In this way we could re-use the last one-half of the containers or maybe even 2/3 of them.

It will cost each of us who volunteer about $200 in bullets to test each caliber. I would suggest Hornady FMJ (new style), Woodleigh, at least two weights of Barnes RN, and the North Fork FN which will be available around January. It is necessary to test a Barnes RN of same weight as the NF FN to see what if anything you give up for FN bullet profile.

So that would mean a 350 gr 416 as well as the 400 gr Barnes. And the 450 gr and 500 gr 458. (450 grain has been discontinued but I can probably find some more). For .375 Ron will need the 300 and 350 gr Woodleigh, and probably 270 and 300 gr Barnes. Plus Hornady and NF and Bridger FN.

I will post a sign up sheet as a new thread for the project.

I would defer to you gentlemen about what range to test. Ive been using 25 yards as that is what GH recommended.

It is also important to elevate the containers on a saw horse. If we use the same range and saw horses small differences in our height should not affect bullet path much.

Andy

Some obersvation based on quite a number of kills on various dangerous and plainsgame:

I have found the Woodleigh RN to out penetrate the FSFN solid.

I have found the GSFN solid to have more penetration that I have ever needed.

I have observed that the cutting shoulder on a Bridger, Northfork or GSFN has a purpose and that is to shave hair around an entrance wound as it pushes the skin in on contact, perhaps this helps the heavy bleeding from the entrance hole?, it seems to at any rate..It may also cut major arteries and vessels whereas a RN lets them slide by? what I know for sure is a flat nose with a cutting shoulder will do more internal damage than a round nose and that you will 99.9% of the time get a much better blood trail with a FN bullet. I am not a sawbones and have no expertise on trama, etc. but I know what I see and I am one of the top bullet diggers around, I will crawl in after a bullet, up to my armpits in blood and shit..

The best of both worlds however is the new Northfork cup point IMO...It penetrates less that either of the above, yet will shoot stem to stern through a buffalo lengthwise and surly that is enough...Penetration is but one factor in the overall scheme of killing DG, but it is the primary one by some degree...by the same token it expands to a small mushroom, drive in a direct line and does as much damage as a soft as far as I can tell, I think its the bullet of the future for DG....

As to the original thread on the 458, well IMO any load that will churn 2100 FPS with a 500 gr. bullet is doing so at about 110% loading density, thats OK on a plainsgame rifle but its compaction on a DG rifle and thats not OK...

However, a max load of RL-7 will give you 2030 FPS, that will get the job done and keep you healthy..If I were a 458 fan that is the load I would pick and it will get the job done, but I am not a 458 fan, and thats OK, I don't have to be, thats why they make other calibers........

Alf,

Where are you going wth this? If one drives a car into a house there is usually significant penetration.

If a big enough gun is used there is always some penetration. The problem with stating what Selous did is that the old big bores had very poor penetrationm, which is why they had to blaze away at an elephant repeatedly to bring it down.

All the modern calibers have sufficient penetration on reasonably sized game, which is why I hunt big game with big calibers and not .22's. There are too many variables to precisely predict penetration except in over-kill situations.

The bottom line? Use enough gun.