I rejoined SCI when DSC decided to go to Atlanta as I thought I'd go to SCI next year. I have friends who are into SCI, but got their newsletter today and while I support them and they do good, something is just not right. Read about folks getting Gold, Silver or Diamond or Inner Circle Awards. What's that all about? I don't get it.

When I hunt, it's between the animal and me (and the PH and trackers obviously). I don't care what anyone else thinks about it. I don't want any recognition from any human who wasn't there and I certainly don't want an "award".

I don't enter anything into the record books and I've only allowed one animal to be measured at the significant pressure from a PH that was sure it would make "top ten". It missed by an eighth of an inch. He was disappointed. I wasn't. It was a fine animal.

I love to hunt and I don't need to keep score as long as I'm on the green side of the grass.

I have been a Life Member of both SCI and the NRA.

The NRA we all know how it was run by a self serving idiot.

SCI has basically ruined what we call hunting.

They turned it into a MINE IS BEGGER than yours competition.

And most of those who participate in this sad venture are as far removed from being real hunters as the moon from earth.

I was taken to task by one of the biggest, crooked, so called professional hunters.

Who broke every law to provide these sick individuals with “trophies” they pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for so they can claim a silly prize from SCI!

In my searches, I was surprised of the number of professional hunters who disliked that crook.

And they provided me with a lot of information, which frankly, is shameful and illegal.

I was getting threatening emails from this crook every day.

But, I found a very simple way to shut him up.

I joined sci bc they came east first.

Both groups do award. SCI has always been more upfront on the awards. I dislike the awards.

SCI just sent a list of bills they supported that just past the House including removing wolves from the ESA and legislation to prevent an Executive from banning lead for hunting and fishing on government ground. Another had to do w accesses to federal lands for hunting.

DSC appear to be in a tailspin. SCI always seemed to me to have more weight as a NGO. See their non-support of the 5 year lion rule ass being a direct cause to the import ban. DAC endorsed the 5 year rule for lion. That was the old regime.

SCI also has more outreach to state legislatures there is an SCI person who has some contact with KY’s legislature. They flagged a bad bill by the GOP to place appointment of of the Fish and Wildlife Commission in the hands of the legislature. Right now, those commissioners are appointed after a notice and comment period by the citizens. I need to check if it passed.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I joined sci bc they came east first.

Both groups do award. SCI has always been more upfront on the awards. I dislike the awards.

SCI just sent a list of bills they supported that just past the House including removing wolves from the ESA and legislation to prevent an Executive from banning lead for hunting and fishing on government ground. Another had to do w accesses to federal lands for hunting.

DSC appear to be in a tailspin. SCI always seemed to me to have more weight as a NGO. See their non-support of the 5 year lion rule ass being a direct cause to the import ban. DAC endorsed the 5 year rule for lion. That was the old regime.

SCI also has more outreach to state legislatures there is an SCI person who has some contact with KY’s legislature. They flagged a bad bill by the GOP to place appointment of of the Fish and Wildlife Commission in the hands of the legislature. Right now, those commissioners are appointed after a notice and comment period by the citizens. I need to check if it passed.

LHeym -

As a point of interest on the lead bullet issue - I did an on-line class for a permanent bonus point for big game draws in Arizona (my home).

In that on-line class this lead/solid core bullet demo was given as evidence.

I am not advocating either way on lead vs solid core, just thought it was fascinating what really happens to a lead bullet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bJtgYs-Eho

I am not advocating for lead.
I am taking no position.

The pro lead is well supported by average, majority of hunters.

I use only to highlight the legislative advocacy by SCI that appears to out reach DSC.

I appreciate the video. I have left lead for shotguns. I have not made the switch for rifles, large game.

SCI is not the same organization it was 10 years ago. There has been a lot of change and the change is for the better . There is new leadership. Some of the things that happened in the past will never happen again.

The things that SCI does in litigation and lobbying are both expensive and effective.

I do agree about the awards. I do not care for the awards . They are used against us by the opposition.

I get that it is a fundraising function . I sort of get that some of the awards are commemorative in nature . Big 5 for example . The rest of it , I do not get . I am not wired that way . Others love them.

In the final analysis, certain members want the awards. If they didn’t, the awards would go away .

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I am not advocating for lead.
I am taking no position.

The pro lead is well supported by average, majority of hunters.

I use only to highlight the legislative advocacy by SCI that appears to out reach DSC.

I appreciate the video. I have left lead for shotguns. I have not made the switch for rifles, large game.

Neither am I. However, I've have drawn for the Kaibab Plateau, Kaibab Strip twice in my lifetime. I killed a 180 Mule deer and a 207 Mule deer on those hunts.

Those two area's, non-lead core bullets are enforced by the AZGFD. There is a robust Condor population and they fear the Condors eat lead fragments out of gut-piles.

The trophy Mule Deer population in both area's is managed well. They check your deer on the way out and IIRC pull a tooth and maybe even a gland of some kind, don't remember. They are checking for CWD I think.

Sounds like good management given the condors.

I use to be very hostile to alternative shot. I went to DSC they had a raptor booth there. The guys with the raptors were very much anti lead shot.

Apparently, it does not take a lot of lead to make a raptor very sick/die.

However, I still use bonded lead bullets for big game.

Larry,

I don't cut any slack on awards for the "Big Five". I will not shoot a rhino to complete it -- ever.

I refuse to enter ANY animal for a reward!

I hunt because I enjoy it.

I will leave MINE IS BIGGER to the dickless fakes!

Agreed totally.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Larry,

I don't cut any slack on awards for the "Big Five". I will not shoot a rhino to complete it -- ever.

Don't discount doing a green hunt. I thought it was gonna be lame. It was fun and exciting as hell. Best part was watching the Rhino get up and run off!!

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Larry,

I don't cut any slack on awards for the "Big Five". I will not shoot a rhino to complete it -- ever.

Personally, I have shot all of the big 5. Most many times over. Do I have the award? No and I never will . The same way I don’t have my grand slam of sheep recorded . The same way I don’t have my grand slam of turkeys recorded.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I refuse to enter ANY animal for a reward!

I hunt because I enjoy it.

I will leave MINE IS BIGGER to the dickless fakes!

As I understand you it, these awards are not based on size . They are based on a list of animals .

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I refuse to enter ANY animal for a reward!

I hunt because I enjoy it.

I will leave MINE IS BIGGER to the dickless fakes!

As I understand you it, these awards are not based on size . They are based on a list of animals .

What are the circles for?

What are the different levels of awards for?

Each animal is numbered, from ONE downwards.

I have one good slam record…about 17, three fights one night and still stood on two legs…bit beat up next day…nobody recorded it as we were all pretty drunk and girls were screaming, that I remember very well…

Shy,
We used to have a guy on AR named IdahoSharpshooter. He claimed he had killed about 20 elk over 325, he claimed he was a sniper in Vietnam, made a lot of threats to various folks here, expounded greatly on his manly abilities...

However, I never heard your story before. I believe it, but that must have been one heck of night!!!! I would buy you a trophy beer just to hear that one in person!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I refuse to enter ANY animal for a reward!

I hunt because I enjoy it.

I will leave MINE IS BIGGER to the dickless fakes!

As I understand you it, these awards are not based on size . They are based on a list of animals .

What are the circles for?

What are the different levels of awards for?

Each animal is numbered, from ONE downwards.

If there are 20 animals in a category, one can get a different award based on the number of animals in that category. The numerical sequence listed is nothing more than that. A numerical sequence.

I understand the feelings toward SCI around here. I don't participate in the awards, but do support what they do on our behalf.

Further, I think I know Larry well enough that he would not lend his time or name to anything that was a farce or fraud. He puts his money where his heart is on this. More of us should do that same.

I get it that you, Saeed, don't like this. However you live in a culture that values hunting and does not place a lot of restictions on hunters. Most of us live in places where we have to fight every day for the privilege to hunt. The US will likely go the way of Europe and start banning imports of trophies. You do not have to fight that but we do. SCI and DSC and others fight that battle and need our money to do so.

I get it that you likely were not in a fraternity in college. But does not mean all fraternities are bad or evil. You paint the world with the brush through which you see things. But understand, your view is not always the best or the most coherent.

SCI, for all of its faults, is one line of defense we have and we need them. Unless, you are willing to fund the fight.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Shy,
We used to have a guy on AR named IdahoSharpshooter. He claimed he had killed about 20 elk over 325, he claimed he was a sniper in Vietnam, made a lot of threats to various folks here, expounded greatly on his manly abilities...

However, I never heard your story before. I believe it, but that must have been one heck of night!!!! I would buy you a trophy beer just to hear that one in person!

Someone mentioned that guy to me once

Anyway, teenage fights while drunk were pretty stupid and not much fights except throwing some punches , knocked the kids down, more like classic drunk brawls LMAO
Just kinda funny story against all the grand slams awards
Trust me, wasn’t something you’d write home about

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
I understand the feelings toward SCI around here. I don't participate in the awards, but do support what they do on our behalf.

Further, I think I know Larry well enough that he would not lend his time or name to anything that was a farce or fraud. He puts his money where his heart is on this. More of us should do that same.

I get it that you, Saeed, don't like this. However you live in a culture that values hunting and does not place a lot of restictions on hunters. Most of us live in places where we have to fight every day for the privilege to hunt. The US will likely go the way of Europe and start banning imports of trophies. You do not have to fight that but we do. SCI and DSC and others fight that battle and need our money to do so.

I get it that you likely were not in a fraternity in college. But does not mean all fraternities are bad or evil. You paint the world with the brush through which you see things. But understand, your view is not always the best or the most coherent.

SCI, for all of its faults, is one line of defense we have and we need them. Unless, you are willing to fund the fight.

You are correct. While I hate the awards personally, there is a hell of a lot of good that SCI does . Today , I am in Washington DC with a group of SCI members heading to capitol hill to lobby for our causes.

SCI is heavily involved in both legislative activities and litigation all protecting the right to hunt . It isn’t just in the Federal level . It is also in various states and other countries. Without them, we would be finished .

The amount of effort going into this by volunteers is incredible. The volunteers are doing all of this without compensation. In my case , I do not even seek reimbursement of my costs such as hotel and airfare . Many others do the same .

The current management are a bunch of straight shooters . There are now rules and procedures in place that should preclude some of the things that have happened in the past . These rules and procedures are all geared toward doing the right thing .

For all the good that SCI does, I still hate the awards . I do not see that going away .

Larry,
Thanks for taking this on. It is one thing to write checks and an entirely other thing to spend a lot of time doing what you are doing....

I wish the detractors would take the time to help with actions and a check....

Being a member or life member is really not enough. It is like being "pew sitter" in church and complaining about the music or pastor's sermon. Get in the game. Get involved. I have had enought of "monkeys sitting on the porch" throwing rocks at the workers.....

We can bash SCI for all sorts of reasons. BUT the fact remains that they do fight for hunters rights. A lot of this work is done behind the scenes and not published, which is probably not a bad thing.

With regard to the big hate of the whole Record book business! To go back in time, Record book keeping was started by Rowland Ward a British taxidermist which was founded in 1870. They did it to keep a record of measurement of big game trophies which later became a bible for hunters to know where to hunt and later I guess many wanted to get their names in to the book. As you can imagine in those long gone days even before the phone was invented (1876); the knowledge that was gained from such records was substantial and even to this day it is interesting to go through it.

I bet in 50 years time SCI records will also be something of value to those who care about such things! A little story to prove my point.

When i was organising hunts in Burkina years ago. I was hunting with a group of Indian clients, the night before the hunt started we were discussing what everyone wanted to shoot. A good friend of mine said he absolutely had no interest in a Nagor Reedbuck. Lo and behold the first animal we ran in to the next morning was a Nagor Reedbuck, when I saw it I said shoot it as I knew it was big. He shot it and it was the biggest we have ever taken there. On measuring it we discovered it was bigger than SCI no. 1 by a really big margin. He begged me to take the head and I said it had no value to me, so long story short he sent it to a taxidermist in Europe where it then disappeared. Looking back its a shame that the No. 1 Nagor Reedbuck was never recorded for posterity!

Here is a picture of it




I do agree that the classification of some animals in to 10 different categories doesn't make much sense Example the very same Nagor Reedbuck in the photo above is also found in Cameroon but under a different SCI category!

Here is one I shot in Cameroon, I can't see any difference.



However if this encourages some to hunt more so be it! The Awards program also earns SCI a lot of money.

The SCI convention is the biggest in the world. If it went away tomorrow where would you have a chance to meet all the vendors under one roof? And for those who poo poo it, you don't know what you are missing.

If you want to own guns and hunt I believe that everyone should support all hunting and shooting Orgs to the best they can.


Arjun Reddy
Hunters Networks LLC
www.huntersnetworks.com
30 Ivy Hill Road
Brewster, NY 10509
Tel: +1 845 259 3628

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Arjun,

I agree with your post. Personally I don't care about the awards part one way or another. I don't care is people are seeking their Diamond Award or whatever.

I prefer to look at the good SCI has done for hunting everywhere. Without SCI's efforts, I believe international hunting would die and quickly.

Let those who can and do pursue the biggest and best for the recognition have it. I don't care.

As far as the record book goes I think it is a good reference for researching a future hunt. It has helped book a couple hunts.

I think bashing SCI because of the awards program is unproductive and just feeds the narrative that SCI is only about killing animals for awards.

Mark

SCI’s work in furthering the interests of hunters, including the organization’s lobbying and litigation efforts, is essential and more than worth the price of admission for members.

The simple fact is that we NEED to be organized in order to be effective against those who oppose us.

The so-called hunting awards are stupid. I don’t seek them.

The record book is a valuable source of information on exemplars of the many big game animals we hunt across the world.

I suppose it was inevitable that the record book would also be used to “measure” who is supposedly the better hunter.

Ridiculous but inevitable.

The awards are not going away like them or not.

I am sure that some seek these awards to boost their ego. Others seek the awards to document their goals/accomplishments. Some might even purchase the awards to contribute to the cause .

I am quite sure that I qualify for many of the awards. I will never apply for them as it is not my thing . On the other hand, I vividly remember sitting next to two women at a conservation fund raiser . They were both interested in the World Hunting Award . After listening to them, I believe this was their goal . Nothing more nothing less.

I will say that a few years ago, I got a letter from someone at SCI offering to come measure everything in my trophy room to “document my efforts.” I was not interested but found that description fascinating.

Ethics are subjective, finances are objective. If people want to travel the world with the main goal being to win an award, I'm fine with that if it contributes to preserving regulated sport hunting and all that goes with that.

I do get the questioning look sometimes when some people find out i am going somewhere far away, by myself to hopefully shoot one pig . I just say "it's the adventure "

I find the idea that without SCI hunting would be dead is a bit silly!

Like saying without Biden and Trump we would not have democracy!

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I refuse to enter ANY animal for a reward!

I hunt because I enjoy it.

I will leave MINE IS BIGGER to the dickless fakes!

As I understand you it, these awards are not based on size . They are based on a list of animals .

AND you have to pay a lot of $$$ for the award the present you.

SCI does a lot of good, as does DSC and I support that totally. I just don't like the awards. I don't like keeping score against other hunters, or as to the size of the animals, because I could care less. A mature animal is a trophy. I hunt to hunt.

Seems to me the Record Book provides documentary evidence where quality animals of a desired species is located, and the PH/Outfitter who holds the concessions. A great resource, in addition to scientific evidence.

Isn't the awards program really celebrating quality animals?? Yes, some skill of the hunter on difficult species, but alot of it is JUST PLAIN LUCK!! I like the award plaques for naming the species in my trophy room.

Bottom line, however, the Awards Program is a BIG REVENUE SOURCE for SCI!! Record Book too!!

quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:
Bottom line, however, the Awards Program is a BIG REVENUE SOURCE for SCI!! Record Book too!!

You hit that nail directly on the head. The Record Book is a cash cow for SCI.

Everyone should understand that SCI is going to advertise this to their advantage at every opportunity - especially in their publications. When the average member sees all the hooplah about awards, they should view it as adverting just as they would any other ad. Buy if you want it. If not, skip to the next page. Do not fault SCI for thier Record Book, after all, they gotta make a living to do all the work for hunters that they do.

Got this today . One example of what the Foundation does .