Try this link,, www.rooseveltbrowninghunt.com

Come to think of it, I have a Browning Model 1895 in .30-06 that I may just drag along to South Africa one of these days.





"Theodore Roosevelt's son, Kermit, drops a 70-pound leopard with his 1895 .405 Winchester in this sketch by Phillip Goodwin in TR's book, African Game Trails.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/featured_rifles/big_0401/



http://www.rarewinchesters.com/articles/art_1895.htm



-Bob F.

I'm not sure that there's a 'hatred' for the levers as much as it is cautionary. The professional's don't want hurt paying hunters, and even more so they themselves don't want to get hurt. The more experienced hunters feel a certain impathy for the professionals and feel a loyality to their chosen calibers and rifles. There's a certain number of hunters who could not hit a bull in the butt with any action or caliber at any distance, and I'm sure there is more then a few ending up in Africa. So it makes good sense to have the hunter outfitted with the caliber and rifle that give them the best chance at success. Then there's a certain number of snobs who look down their pointy noses at the 'Great Unwashed' who don't have or inherited the resouces to afford a Holland and Holland.
I could not kill an elephant, lion, rhino, hippo, unless the critter was threatening me or mine and I could not run, hide, climb out of the way. Plus I cannot afford it.
I'm taking lever guns to hunt plains game, to test my ability.
Jim

HI,

JefferyDenmark,nice web sight, the round you mention is very close to the 50-110,Kev

HI,

Well this is great I am getting very good answers and I appreciate this.The statement below is somewhat what I thought,and this question is not beaten to death as it is to due with the lever itself and not so much with the cal.I myself even would prefere a larger cal than a 4570,not so much with weight but with fps that is why I had a custom 50-110 made for me. This again has nothing to due with the platform,lever action rifle but round,Thanks Kev


"I don't think it's a question of lever actions, so much as the calibers available for it, and the ability to affordably customize and accurize them the way you can a bolt rifle"

A few loads. I haven't tried all of these yet. Use Caution! No guarantes.

The strange thing is if somebody hunts with a leveraction he�s frowned upon but using a handgun or bow is OK and highly respected.

I quote ErikD from another thread: To each his own.

Fanatics tend to piss me off though...I remember a heated thread on CZ�s hogback stocks and a few on CRF vs pushfeed...I guess we all have our Achilles heals!

Kev,
I don't think it is a "hatred" of lever guns. A lot of the folks that get involved in these discussions are fans of leverguns for other purposes.

However, the topic usually starts innocent enough with a question of taking a lever gun to Africa for dangerous game by a person that has never been. Some of the more experienced fellows here will step and say they don't recommend it. After that, there usually begins a more lively discussion. In the past 2 or 3 of the ugly discussions, we have gotten the levergun or cartridge fan bow up and either state is better than the "typical" bolt action or double rifle used on dangerous game in the traditional dangerous game loads. Usually with demeaning references to posters that have been here since the beginning and in Africa since Stanley found Livingstone. Then things turn ugly. It has gotten to the point where I'm sure people like Ray, George, 500grains, urdubob, Mac, and others immediately see red when a post is made about leverguns or the 45/70 in the Africa Hunting forum.

It's not that this group hates leverguns or the 45/70, most of them have used both in other applications. It is what these threads end up becoming that furrows brows wrinkles noses. If someone is thinking about using a levergun chambered in 45/70 or whatever in Africa, it is a legitimate question to ask. If they don't like the response that is given, then either let it go and use the rifle despite the advice or take the advice that was asked for in the first place. In past threads that hasn't happened and new poster usually defends his choice to the grave without ever going to Africa and using that particular rifle, yet still proclaims it to be one of the best.

I'm just about 100% sure I (or anyone else here) would get the same response if I said that I was going on an elephant hunt with a 7x57 (or 303 or 318 WR or 30-06 or whatever) because someone has done it in the past. Then attacked the members that recommend against it.

In this Africa Forum, I honestly do believe forum members add their input because they care enough about this site and the members here to help them out. I do believe that.

When I was in the planning stages of my second PG hunt and had my heart set on a sizable Limpopo Bushbuck in thick bush, my PH heartily encouraged use of my Marlin LA in 45-70 with a 350 gr. JRN @ about 2,015 fps. The hunt went well and I bagged my BB @ about 40 yds. in very thick cover with a well placed offhand shot. And that was it for the LA.

The balance of my PG were shot with a magnum BA at ranges up to 300 yds.

Frankly, I wouldn't use my LA over 100 yds. for anything over 1,000 lbs. It is a great brush cartridge properly loaded and kept within limits. But comparing it to a 470NE double for close range DG work is ludicrous.

Kev,
Great to hear about your 50-110. What platform did you have it built on? Would love to see so chronagraph data. what kind and weight of bullets are you using?

Must be a thumper!

I don't hate lever action rifles at all. In fact, some of my favorite rifles, such as the Model 92, 94, and 9422 Winchesters. But like Mark said early on in this thread, I won't be taking any of them to Africa. For one thing, they just don't stike me as African guns. I would no more carry a lever-gun on safari that I would wear bib overalls on safari.

For another thing, I don't see anything taking place in an African setting that could not be handled better with either a scoped (or open-sighted) bolt action rifle or else a double, with fine single-shots (no Thompson-Center stuff!) being on the outer fringes, but still within the realm of credibility.

Cartridges that are sensible, practical, and better for either plainsgame hunting or dangerous game hunting are what bolt-guns, doubles, and singles were designed for in the first place, and are ideal for African hunting. Such rifles and their cartridges will keep ugly suprises to a minimum, prove invaluable for the occasional long shot you'll encounter while hunting plainsgame, and they'll better keep your PH and trackers safe and alive, and they're better able to keep you safe and alive and heading home to your family with a smile on your face after it's all over.

For African use, the lever action makes for an inferior safari rifle from every standpoint of consideration in my estimate.........

AD

Easy now George...please dont drag the WSM into this! I love my 300 WSM.....but not as much as my 375 H&H or 416 Rigby.

Hate is a bad choice of words perhaps...I don't think any of us hate lever actions, I own a few of them and I hunt with them...

The problem is some of the users of levers make some outrages claims, and when most disagree with them the hair flies...Many of them are simply looking for a fight and the 45-70 seems to get one everytime...

My good friend, business partner and gun scribe Phil Shoemaker is a 45-70 fan, and I am not, but were still friends and business partners and I have a lot of respect for his vast experience..He loves Barnes bullets, I do not, but again were best of friends, you don't have to agree on every issue with anyone, and I don't think I hate Phil,at least not often

Short of the 50 Alaskan in a bolt gun, and 50-110 in a lever gun, there is no DGR caliber in the lever guns IMO, and thats just an assersion on my part as I have not shot dangerous game with lever actions, only elk and deer. However I do know what is required to make a DGR, and that is based on balistics a combination of using them and balistic study. IMO 2000 FPS, is the bottom limit with any caliber of 40 cal. or over; SD of at least 300; The velocity goes up as the caliber goes down, for instance a 375, .338 or .366 bullet with a SD of 300 should at least move at 2350 FPS..There may be room for arguement in my figures, so be it, but it suits me.

Where most of the silliness comes in with some lever folks is when they can drive a 45 caliber 300 gr. bullet at 2000 FPS plus and compare that to a 45 cal. 500 gr. bullet at 2000 FPS, "they get the same velocity so that makes it OK" not so, that Sectional Density of the 500 gr. bullet is all important to the equasion...

As far a you shooting Buffalo with a 50-110, I don't recall your balistics, but I do recall telling you to have at it, that it should kill anything that walks, talks, breaths or crawls with you balistic quote....

Jim Brockmans new 50 Alaskan built on the smallest CZ action will chronograph a 535 gr. bullet at 2030 FPS in that 20" barreled 7 lb. gun and its actually shootable and pressures are max but well within the safty margin, but he cannot get near that velocity in a lever gun..

I may have to have one of those big boomers..A 7Lb. rifle sounds very nice to me these days.

In the meantime, I will just satisfy my lever gun hunting to my 30-30, 25-35, 308 and 250 Savage and to deer and elk. I love these old lever guns.

I don't usually "hate" inanimate objects. Folks who keep arguing the same old subjects over and over though...

The positions have been claimed and sides have been taken. Further discussion is unnecessary.

As they say, "Nothing to see here, move along."

I like levers, own a few. I've got two .50 Alaskans built on Browning Mod. 71, 348 Win.levers. I've shot one moose with one using the 570 Gr. Bonded core Kodiak bullet. He was about 20 yards in heavy brush. One shot high in the shoulder. He made 2 jumps and piled up.
We load the 570 Grain with 54 grains of IMR 4198. With this load we're getting around the 2000fps mark.
The 450 Grain is loaded with 55 grains of IMR 4198. We're getting just over 2000fps with it. These are trial loads and we are still working on them. No signs of excessive pressure. Accuracy isn't spectacular, but its a close range weapon.
We did some penetration tests using a Spruce log. The 570 grain penetrated twice as far as a 230 grain 338 Win. Fail safe. I'd use it on Eland/Kudu, not sure about Buff. I've never shot one so have no experience on that.
Here's a pic for comparison.

My next trip to Africa will probably include a pet Marlin 32 Special. I don't pretend it is the most effective choice, but it is what I want to use.

mho is that people on both extremes of the arguement really overreact to the opposition. The "discussion" usually leads to preposterous positions from both sides, with each trying to shove their opinions down the other's throat. It would be funny if everyone wasn't so tired of it.



Class warfare....that one still cracks me up though...



Cheers,

Canuck

HI,

I chron a 525 HC, from Cast Performace, at around 2200 fps,this is from my 22.5 barrel and I think I could go up.I got alot of data from Tim Sundles from Buff Bore as he has a Dave Clay 50-110 to,but he has hundreds and hundreds of rounds through it.
TJ, please let me know where I can get them 570 grain Kodiak Bone Core Bullets,I have only be able to get the 450 and the 500 grain,I have never seen a 570,I would buy some in a heart beat.
Also I am glad to learn that it is not per say the Lever, but more to due with the cal,like I said I have a 416 Rigby from MR. Brockman which would always go with me.I understand the limits of levers,range limits with big flat nose bullets, and I have had a 50AK great round, TJ E-mail me about them 570 Kodiak Bullets never knew they made them that heavy?I got the 500 grain easy to 2200fps, 570?but will be fun finding out. Dave Clay has my lever right now as he is looking at the stock as he will have a new stock with mercury recoils in them next year,and is doing some fine adjustments to it, will improve it even more so,Kev

kev,
A 525 HC or a 535 gr. Woodleigh at 2200 FPS from your 50-110 will kill anything on this earth including elephant, and do it in spades, that I am sure of...that is the equivelent of a 500 Nitro Express plus a 100 FPS or so, and that one sure works..

I am curious of the cost of building your rifle and who built it, and how about the recoil, what does it compare to..you have peaked my interrest..I wonder if a win. 95 could be converted to that caliber?

kev:
Here's the address for the 570 Grain .510 cal. bullets.
Alaska Bullets Works Inc.
P.O. Box 54
Douglas Ak.99824

Kev,

could the other option for a 570 gr bullet would be to re-cut the cannelure on a woodleigh 570 gr .510" Jeffrey bullet ??

I to would like some Kodiak 570 gr slugs.

Kev,

Are the 50 Alaskan & 50-110 .510" or .500"? Also, what's the story on the 510 Kodiak Express cartridge, how does it compare?

Thanks

The .50 Alaskan is .510. Don't know about the others.

I'll throw in my $.02 here. I own a marlin 45/70 and a Marlin 1895 Cowboy converted to 50 Alaskan by Doug Turnbull Restoration. The .50 Alaskan I have gets 1850fps from a 535 grain Woodleigh at about 32,000cup. I can load it hotter if I wanted. The 300 grain Barnes goes 2640fps (about the same speed and same weight as a .375 H+H). I would not take either of these lever guns on an African hunt. The reasons are; 1)I have a doubt about how they would react in the extremely dusty conditions. Would they function well? 2) With top pressure handloads (that I am not using now!) would the increased African head cause the cases to stick. I lever gun has much less camming power than a bolt and I don't want to be smiling at some big animal I have just shot with a 'frozen' gun! 3) I also own a Winchester 70 in .470 Capstick, a Ruger 77 in .458, a .460 Weatherby and a Remington 375 H+H. I have better tools for this job. So the lever stays here to swat moose, bear and elk in timber. I much prefer to use the best tool for the job at hand!

HI,

I had MR. Dave Clay do the work, the whole thing cost me around 3,200 plue scope.The reason Dave and MR. Ricks here and others use the 71 or 86 is length of action and strength.I do not think a 95 could be converted to this round, at one time Win come out with the 50-110 lever in black powder and that was around 100 years ago, but I sure would love some 570 grain Kodiaks, and PC yes I can also move cannelure and have,but I also wanted to shorten the length of the bullet,Kev

HI,

I almost forget to say the recoil is to say hard ,that would be an understatement, my rifle weighs in at 9.3 pounds,

The .50 Alaskan I have gets 1850fps from a 535 grain Woodleigh at about 32,000cup. I can load it hotter
This is right on the money as the 50-110 gets about 300-350 fps more than the 50AK with same weight bullet.So when I state what I have got from mine this works out very well with above facts,Kev

HI,

TJ, I believe that maybe I have them mix up with Kodiak Bone Core Bullets,Alaska Bullet Work maybe a different company?,as Kodiak is located in Juneau and Alaska works is in Douglas, if you have there web site or phone number please let me know,also the 50AK,50-110 are .510 diameter also 50 Express, I think that is what is called, is the 50AK or 348 that is just alittle longer it pushs a hair faster than a 50AK, but a tab less than a 50-110 as I understand that round,but I am not positive as I never really look into that round hard as starline brass came out with 50-110 brass and that is one reason I went with the 50-110,Kev

HI,

One more thing, here is a pic of a 400 grain 45-70 on the left and a 50-100 with a 525 grain in center and a 50AK with a 525 grain bullet,Kev

Kev,
Is that your 50-110 lever action in the background above? Any picutes of the 50-110 round?