Been re-reading Ian Nychens, Months of the Sun. Found this interesting discussion that relates to the never ending debate over the adequacy of smaller calibers on elephant:

"Bruce's [Austen] second shot [with a .375 on an elephant bull] was, as he described it, 'two finger widths' below the first one, causing the bull to collapse at close quarters. The first shot had barely missed the top of the brain, and the second lifesaving shot had barely hit the top section of the brain. This episode is another example of how inadequate medium caliber rifles are when it comes to shock transmission in heavy bone formation, especially under adverse conditions. A fondness for such calibers can, under bad conditions, be the eventual end of you. In Mozambique, because of their cheapness and availability, there was a preference for 9.3 and 9.5mm rifles, and friends and I jokingly referred to the class of hunters who used them as being lured to the mythical happy hunting grounds."

Just finished reading his book as well...

He did not had a lot of good things to say for medium caliber in the thick stuff.

Interesting is that he trusted his life on a 450 double in the Jess but did not had a lot to say about 470 - 600 doubles he has used or seen used.

Same about using softs on buff instead of solids during follow ups.

He sure was a tough old character

I was watching Buzz's "Hunting The African Elephant" video a few minutes before and saw the part where Nyschens talks about this fellow and his 375.Bruce was helping Nyshens with Tse Tse control and they shot 30 ele only to find that some of those shot by Bruce were getting back up.Nyschens then told him to use the side brain shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerhard.Delport:

He sure was a tough old character.

He certainly did not suffer fools lightly and was not shy in expressing his opinions, e.g., his views on Rupert Fothergill. He would have been an interesting fellow to spend a few weeks hunting with for sure.

Nyshens said that if he were to do it over again he would go up from his 450 no.2 to a 475 no.2 or to something in the 500 class.

Funny
This debate will go on forever
Karamojo might beg to differ
Nyschens and Bell in hunters paradise...
I'd love to hear that discussion

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Been re-reading Ian Nychens, Months of the Sun. Found this interesting discussion that relates to the never ending debate over the adequacy of smaller calibers on elephant:

"Bruce's [Austen] second shot [with a .375 on an elephant bull] was, as he described it, 'two finger widths' below the first one, causing the bull to collapse at close quarters. The first shot had barely missed the top of the brain, and the second lifesaving shot had barely hit the top section of the brain. This episode is another example of how inadequate medium caliber rifles are when it comes to shock transmission in heavy bone formation, especially under adverse conditions. A fondness for such calibers can, under bad conditions, be the eventual end of you. In Mozambique, because of their cheapness and availability, there was a preference for 9.3 and 9.5mm rifles, and friends and I jokingly referred to the class of hunters who used them as being lured to the mythical happy hunting grounds."

Mike,

I don't think a larger caliber would have made much if any difference in this case. I have missed a bull elephant on two occasions by going a couple of inches too high. Neither one was knocked down let alone killed. Both were recovered due to good second shots. One was a 500 grain bullet from a 470 and the other a 550, grain bullet from a 458 Lott. The head above the brain is just honeycombed bone that soaks up bullet energy.

The old timers always recommended that if you are going to miss a frontal miss low rather than high for this reason.

465H&H

"especially under adverse conditions."

This is why I always prefer 425cal plus for " "early" season Ele hunts

"Shock value" only exists in one's brain, not in reality.

Taylor's values are plain bullshit too.

No two animals will react to the same shot exactly the same.

A well placed medium caliber bullet is infinitely better than a 700 caliber's " shock value"

First Elephant I ever shot was a head no shot at probably 20ft. I tried for a brain shot at the urging of the tracker and PH. I very carefully aimed (375H&H custom Mdl 70 with 1.5x5 VXIII) and let fly with a 300gr Woodleigh solid. The Elephant immediately sat down and I literally mean sat down on his rear quarters. Only problem was he was back up like a Jack-in-the-box and truning. I put a second in heart/lung area as he turned but he never slowed down for over 200yards when he stopped in tall grass. We found lots of very red blood where he stopped. The tracker said it was from a lung shot. He took off and crossed into an area we had no permit for so lost him. The point of the story is he went down immediately upon impact of the 375H&H. Tried the next year with a 470NE and got that one. Eventually took a third with a 416Rigby. I think any of the 3 cartridges will do the job on Elephant. The one I shot with the 470 was a heart/lung shot and he still ran over 200 yards before dying. The one shot with the 416Rigby was also a heart/lung shot and he travelled probably a mile before he died. I think, personally, it's how accurate the shot is that is of primary consideration.

Once shot a charging cow in the thickest Jess with an unsuccessful brain shot with a 470 fmj. Certainly put its breaks on! Doubt that a 375 in the same spot would have had the same effect and likely would not have slowed her down for the follow up shots.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Taylor's values are plain bullshit too.

No two animals will react to the same shot exactly the same.

but look Saeed, the Taylor 'KO' factor fits right-in with a whole list of other adopted terms,formulas,equations
and theories, that also contribute to misleading &/or confusing people,...

- Stopping power,killing power,knockdown power.
- Hydrostatic shock
-'TKO' factor
- Lethal Index formula
- KOV-Knock-Out Value formula
- OGW-Optimal Game Weight formula
- Threshold of wounding potential based on kinetic energy
- greater Sectional Density is 'better' for increased penetration.
- Water-Jug & WetPack based 'wound channel & lethality' tests

Now,..Pondoro Taylor himself eventually came to the personal conclusion that .375cal in the real world,
actually punched/performed above its theoretical-mathematical 'TKO factor' weight...

Well Mike I don't think you have ended the debate

I have had a look at Buzz's video too and there is some interesting and varied shots on elephant, and varied results. Strangely the odd one actually dies without the brain being hit, must have decided it need to conform to the expectations of the calibre being used

I just love it when someone makes a categorically wrong statement about hunting.

I was at the Holland and Holland store in London once, and saw a box of ammo for their 240 Magnum or Apex, I cannot remember.

It is a 6mm caliber, with a 100 grain bullet at 2900 fps.

An old man working there said " this is the best stag killer ever made".

I said " you mean just like the 243 Winchester?"
" NO SIR! It kills MUCH better than any other 6mm rifle."

" I bet it does not kill as well as the 240 Weatherby Magnum?"

"OH yes sir it does. It has been tested and found to be the very best on stag"

Apparently stags die much better knowing they are being killed by a Holland and Holland rifle

Mike,

Did you see where Ian kind of suggested a 5 yard shot in the Jess is a long shot?

Tracker clearing the brush away for the 1st shot and then when he gets charged waiting for the heads to push through the Jess before taking the shot.

His reloading must have been super slick in those conditions.

His method of dealing with a tracker in the bush when the tracker lost the spoor on purpose was suttle ... Like a back end of the gunstock to the neck..

Or the two policemen who he gave the same treatment...hehehe

Must have been very sad to see the times change as it did during the period he hunted the Zambezi valley

Yes, being direct was not an issue for him apparently. But he was also candid in talking about how doing that type of hunting day in and day out would take its toll on his nerves and those of his trackers resulting in them seeing elephant in the jesse where there were none, necessitating them having to take breaks to recharge their nervous system. I also enjoyed how he gave no deference to persons in positions of authority, e.g., the minister from South Africa that he was told to take elephant hunting . . . to the contrary he would challenge them and some actually ended up respecting him as a result. Interesting fellow.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I just love it when someone makes a categorically wrong statement about hunting.

On issues such as this having an opinion does not make someone categorically wrong . . . unless your opinion is at odds with mine.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I just love it when someone makes a categorically wrong statement about hunting.

On issues such as this having an opinion does not make someone categorically wrong . . . unless your opinion is at odds with mine.

Mike,

A specific reaction by an elephant after missing his brain is never a sure thing - regardless of how big the caliber is.

I have been hunting for over 30 years, and I am still puzzled at the reaction of some animals to any specific shot.

One would drop dead in his tracks, another would run a few yards and die, another one would give you a half day of chasing it in the bush.

All from what appears to be the same shot placement.

The only thing which never fails is hitting any part of the central nervous system.

That is the only guarantee.

Everything else is nothing but a guessing game and pure opinion.

Saeed,
I seriously doubt it was a figment of Harry Selby and other seasoned PHs imagination,
that they had noticeably less follow-ups on DG over the decades, when recreational hunter clients
repeatedly proved they could more accurately place .375 cal bullets than they did .470 cal bullets.

...even Harry Manners found the .375cal so inadequate after some 1000 elephants kills from his ivory days,
that he foolishly kept that cartridge as his main PH rifle when he switched his career to guiding safaris....

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
Saeed,
I seriously doubt it was a figment of Harry Selby and other seasoned PHs imagination,
that they had noticeably less follow-ups on DG over the decades, when recreational hunter clients
repeatedly proved they could more accurately place .375 cal bullets than they did .470 cal bullets.

...even Harry Manners found the .375cal so inadequate after some 1000 elephants kills from his ivory days,
that he foolishly kept that cartridge as his main PH rifle when he switched his career to guiding safaris....

That is exactly my point.

A well placed shot is far better than an imaginary advantage a bigger caliber might have.

Excellent thread, very informative and although I've never hunted elephant, I can offer this one observation about how animals react:

I keep detailed records on what I shoot and Saeed, while I agree with you every animal reacts differently and often-times regardless of caliber, I have shot exactly 87 deer with the 100gr Hornady out of my 257 Weatherby, all shot in the shoulder, and not a single one has ever taken a step. That's pretty conclusive evidence in my book regarding the efficacy of this one caliber with this one bullet on this one animal. Thoughts?

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Excellent thread, very informative and although I've never hunted elephant, I can offer this one observation about how animals react:

I keep detailed records on what I shoot and Saeed, while I agree with you every animal reacts differently and often-times regardless of caliber, I have shot exactly 87 deer with the 100gr Hornady out of my 257 Weatherby, all shot in the shoulder, and not a single one has ever taken a step. That's pretty conclusive evidence in my book regarding the efficacy of this one caliber with this one bullet on this one animal. Thoughts?

You are a very good shot, and was very lucky to get broadside shots on all of them.

Also, I suspect that if you had shot 87 cape buffalo with the same caliber and bullet, you would have had several different reactions.

Oh I wish! But you are of course correct. I remember I think it was the outdoor writer Layne Simpson saying somethng similar about shooting Cape Buffalo with the 416 Weatherby using 400gr bullets @2700 fps. While he did not say they all dropped at the shot, his empirical evidence led him to believe that was the most impressive caliber he'd ever used on them.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
Saeed,
I seriously doubt it was a figment of Harry Selby and other seasoned PHs imagination,
that they had noticeably less follow-ups on DG over the decades, when recreational hunter clients
repeatedly proved they could more accurately place .375 cal bullets than they did .470 cal bullets.

...even Harry Manners found the .375cal so inadequate after some 1000 elephants kills from his ivory days,
that he foolishly kept that cartridge as his main PH rifle when he switched his career to guiding safaris....

That is exactly my point.

A well placed shot is far better than an imaginary advantage a bigger caliber might have.

[Saeed, please do not quote Trax it ruins the efficacy of the ignore feature for many of us.]

I think Nyschens point was pretty simple. It was not that shot placement is in any way less important than caliber. From my perspective it was that a marginal shot with a larger caliber is more likely to compensate for the lack of precise shot placement than a similar shot with a smaller caliber. No one will dispute that perfect shot placement will work with virtually any caliber. Nyschens was addressing the scenario where you are close, but no cigar . . . so to speak.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I just love it when someone makes a categorically wrong statement about hunting.

I was at the Holland and Holland store in London once, and saw a box of ammo for their 240 Magnum or Apex, I cannot remember.

It is a 6mm caliber, with a 100 grain bullet at 2900 fps.

An old man working there said " this is the best stag killer ever made".

I said " you mean just like the 243 Winchester?"
" NO SIR! It kills MUCH better than any other 6mm rifle."

" I bet it does not kill as well as the 240 Weatherby Magnum?"

"OH yes sir it does. It has been tested and found to be the very best on stag"

Apparently stags die much better knowing they are being killed by a Holland and Holland rifle

He was probably astonished that someone dared to question him on the subject.

Mike, for a hunter who possesses the shooting skills that you have, a .375 H&H loaded with good bullets is perfectly adequate for elephants. Adequate but not as much fun as using a big double.

For a hunter who is an incompetent rifle shot, such as demonstrated in so many videos we see, the caliber makes no difference. Miss the heart or brain on an elephant and it will run off regardless of whether you miss with a .375 or a .600, he is gone.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

[Saeed, please do not quote Trax ]

Just be reminded that Owner of AR can quote whoever or whatever he wants,
For you to be telling him what to do, is utterly appalling.

quote:

For a hunter who is an incompetent rifle shot, such as demonstrated in so many videos we see,...

Inept people put .458 cal bullets through their PH instead of the animal.
Then suckhole star struck bottom of the ladder attorneys like MJines go and pander to such people who recklessly shoot their PH.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
From my perspective it was that a marginal shot with a larger caliber is more likely to compensate for the lack of precise shot placement
than a similar shot with a smaller caliber.

The sober reality is that good number of recreational hunters are not just marginal , but poor/less effective with a bigbore.
PHs guiding for decades, have stated it was shown that such clients are much more effective at killing with a more manageable .375HH.

Hence what seasoned Africa based professionals can do with a bigbore rifle , does not much compare or apply to the typical recreational
hunter client skill level.... In many cases the bigbore becomes a negative and a hindrance to the recreational hunter.

Some recreational hunter big-bore owners remind me of some Ferrari owners, neither can really drive or shoot to save their lives in a jam,
instead most spend most their time feeling good by bragging about its horsepower and provenance.

Sheer horsepower or bore size, is not the intelligent way to compensate for ones personal lack of driving or shooting skills.

Did Mark Sullivan not state that all his clients are bloody useless as far as shooting was??

Wasn't that his excuse for using his 600 so proudly to kill all his clients animals

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I just love it when someone makes a categorically wrong statement about hunting.

I was at the Holland and Holland store in London once, and saw a box of ammo for their 240 Magnum or Apex, I cannot remember.

It is a 6mm caliber, with a 100 grain bullet at 2900 fps.

An old man working there said " this is the best stag killer ever made".

I said " you mean just like the 243 Winchester?"
" NO SIR! It kills MUCH better than any other 6mm rifle."

" I bet it does not kill as well as the 240 Weatherby Magnum?"

"OH yes sir it does. It has been tested and found to be the very best on stag"

Apparently stags die much better knowing they are being killed by a Holland and Holland rifle

The rule is simple - dont take caliber advice from gun shop employees - even if the gunshop is H&H!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I just love it when someone makes a categorically wrong statement about hunting.

I was at the Holland and Holland store in London once, and saw a box of ammo for their 240 Magnum or Apex, I cannot remember.

It is a 6mm caliber, with a 100 grain bullet at 2900 fps.

An old man working there said " this is the best stag killer ever made".

I said " you mean just like the 243 Winchester?"
" NO SIR! It kills MUCH better than any other 6mm rifle."

" I bet it does not kill as well as the 240 Weatherby Magnum?"

"OH yes sir it does. It has been tested and found to be the very best on stag"

Apparently stags die much better knowing they are being killed by a Holland and Holland rifle

The rule is simple - dont take caliber advice from gun shop employees - even if the gunshop is H&H!!!

Now that is a great bit of advice!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Did Mark Sullivan not state that all his clients are bloody useless as far as shooting was??

Wasn't that his excuse for using his 600 so proudly to kill all his clients animals

Saeed are you trying to say that the 600 is superior ...

Phil

quote:

Originally posted by medved:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Did Mark Sullivan not state that all his clients are bloody useless as far as shooting was??

Wasn't that his excuse for using his 600 so proudly to kill all his clients animals

Saeed are you trying to say that the 600 is superior ...

Phil

It certainlis in the hand of someone who knows how to use it.

Much better than idiots who hunt with that someone!

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I just love it when someone makes a categorically wrong statement about hunting.

I was at the Holland and Holland store in London once, and saw a box of ammo for their 240 Magnum or Apex, I cannot remember.

It is a 6mm caliber, with a 100 grain bullet at 2900 fps.

An old man working there said " this is the best stag killer ever made".

I said " you mean just like the 243 Winchester?"
" NO SIR! It kills MUCH better than any other 6mm rifle."

" I bet it does not kill as well as the 240 Weatherby Magnum?"

"OH yes sir it does. It has been tested and found to be the very best on stag"

Apparently stags die much better knowing they are being killed by a Holland and Holland rifle

The rule is simple - dont take caliber advice from gun shop employees - even if the gunshop is H&H!!!

Now that is a great bit of advice!

Agreed!

There is some truth in every opinion stated here, that goes without saying more! However opinion is just that, OPINION and not binding on anyone!

I happen to be one who loves the 243 Win cartridge, and have never lost an animal while shooting it, nor has it ever required a second shot on deer, antelope, or elk. My next favorite is the 375H&H mag, mine has taken many large animals most with one shot kills and this includes Cape buffalo.

That being said, I could live the rest of my life hunting everything on this planet with two double rifles! A S/S double rifle chambered for 375H&H flanged, with a pair of good illuminated scope in quick detatch rings and a S/S 500NE double rifle with good irons and a Docter sight in quick tetach bases. The glass is only because on my macular degeneration in one eye, my aiming eye.

Opinions mean absolutely nothing to anyone other than the person who owns it! If any chambering works for you, who has the right to tell you that your choice is wrong? And that includes Ian Nychens!

.......................................................................

I did many trips with Buffalo Range safaris run by Rob and Barry Style. Rob only ever used his somewhat battered but beloved cogswill and harrison 375 h and h as his back up rifle of choice for elephant and all dangerous game. Matetsi unit 6 (their concession in the NW corner of Zim )has i think some of the biggest bodied eles in zim(they come over from Bots). Rob is a superb and very experienced elephant hunter .

Trax hits an all time LOW.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Trax hits an all time LOW.

That didn't come as a surprise to you did it?

.....................................................................

WDM Bell shot flying swallows with a 7X57! The person who witnessed this thought he was using a 410 shotgun!

No wonder he brained so many elephants with a 7X57 & 6.5X54MS!

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Trax hits an all time LOW.

Whats LOW is a celebrity hunter who recklessly shoots his PH, then quickly goes on line to report it(apparently to prevent a false rumour mill),
but himself gives a deceiving account.
Then all the AR celebrity hunter suckholes come out in defence of the idiot, then they go on the attack toward the injured PH for getting a lawyer,
then attack the PHs father, when he posts on AR.... All that is the lowest thing I've ever seen on AR period!!

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
375 Cal is marginal on very large animals, even with the latest and greatest.

Yet you will gladly accept money from clients who want to ineptly bounce spears off DG.

They don't call you 'Mutt' Graham for nothing.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
WDM Bell shot flying swallows with a 7X57! The person who witnessed this thought he was using a 410 shotgun!

from my reading I recall that he used his .318WR to shoot cormorants flying in large numbers over lake Jinja.
The birds being about 300ft out & 300ft high.

Bells advice to any new novice hunter,was to select one rifle with one load and master it.
He reported that novices got killed and injured by DG in his time using the 7mm simply because
they could not shoot( did not have the nerve and skill to place their shots to proper effect.)

Bell also wrote where he was on a DG hunt with another, where that person f*ckd-up with his .450cal
then when the animal came charging, Bell graciously cleaned the .450cal mess-up, with a properly placed solid from his 7mm.....

now, that was probably all a bit of an anticlimatic account for those alpha-male bore-size obsessed bozos, that
are hooked on Mark Sullivan style 'big-bore save the day' BS drama stories!.....