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Mates, 2 points come immediately to mind:

1) the rampant corruption is not one sided - both sides participated enthusiastically.

2) 100k elephant disappear in the past 10 years - while Pasanisi controls half of the Selous (as they have done for past 40 years) and it’s all USFWs fault???

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100k elephant disappear in the past 10 years - while Pasanisi controls half of the Selous (as they have done for past 40 years) and it’s all USFWs fault???

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Originally posted by fulvio:
Pasanisi and a remaining handful of other operators have been around for almost 4 decades if not more; is someone trying to say that they needed "scientists" to tell them how to manage wildlife?

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Originally posted by ledvm:

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Originally posted by fulvio:
Pasanisi and a remaining handful of other operators have been around for almost 4 decades if not more; is someone trying to say that they needed "scientists" to tell them how to manage wildlife?

A tragic mistake was made by those in the hunting community who fought the pro hunting scientists.

These scientists supported responsible, regulated hunting as an essential conservation measure and their opinion was critical to directing uninformed public opinion in our favor (just look at the signatories of the Definition of a Huntable Male Lion). Fighting those scientists was illogical and ultimately has proven to be self destructive.

Uninformed public opinion on the subject of hunting is never going to be swayed by the opinions of hunters.

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Originally posted by fairgame:

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Originally posted by ledvm:

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Originally posted by fulvio:
Pasanisi and a remaining handful of other operators have been around for almost 4 decades if not more; is someone trying to say that they needed "scientists" to tell them how to manage wildlife?

A tragic mistake was made by those in the hunting community who fought the pro hunting scientists.

These scientists supported responsible, regulated hunting as an essential conservation measure and their opinion was critical to directing uninformed public opinion in our favor (just look at the signatories of the Definition of a Huntable Male Lion). Fighting those scientists was illogical and ultimately has proven to be self destructive.

Uninformed public opinion on the subject of hunting is never going to be swayed by the opinions of hunters.

Lane,

Not sure of Packer had stayed or advocated Lion hunting it would have made a difference. Zimbabwe and Zambia are pretty much in the same boat and qualified research ignored.

What we need is the African landlords to stand up and their voice to be heard not ours. Maybe that will get international attention.

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Originally posted by fulvio:
Lane:

Almost every predator, Lion & Leopard in particular but mainly Lion, are slowly but surely falling foul of illegal hunters who poach them solely for their body parts; a phenomenon which kicked in almost 2 decades ago and boomed a decade or so ago.

In hand with the poachers are livestock keepers who because of human encroachment, utilizing land which was primarily occupied by large herds of game in the form of Wildebeest and Zebra have interrupted the movements of these migratory animals, the primary source of food for Lions.
It is no wonder that the highest percentage of TZ Lions reside in the Serengeti and its hinterland.

Results? The Lions which reside in non protected areas beyond park boundaries are obliged to feed off the next living creature large enough to sustain the needs of a pride: domestic livestock, cows and donkeys.

End result? Mass poisoning where entire prides can be and are often wiped out.

By and large, legal hunters are normally responsible individuals who go about their business in accordance to professional ethics. The odd violation cannot compare with the destruction caused by poachers and irate livestock keepers.

As you well know, it does not necessarily require a hunter's bullet in taking out the dominant male of pride, opening the door to the next male to decimate the existing cubs; nature does its dirty work far more often than the bullet of an errant hunter.

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Originally posted by ledvm:
The non-hunting world lumps trophy-hunting with poaching. If one has not seen that phenomenon...one has not been paying attention.

Hunters are not going to convince the non-hunting public otherwise.

Scientists who could see the value of the habitat that hunting kept viable...could!

When we lost their voice...our (and African wildlife) fate was sealed.

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Originally posted by ledvm:
Combine all the above with the refusal to make the age inspections of exported lion trophies transparent and it discredited the entire process.

Keeping the age determinations and methodology opaque...simply proved to USF&WS that there was a serious problem with the ages of exported lion trophies that needed to be covered up.

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Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

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Originally posted by ledvm:
Combine all the above with the refusal to make the age inspections of exported lion trophies transparent and it discredited the entire process.

Keeping the age determinations and methodology opaque...simply proved to USF&WS that there was a serious problem with the ages of exported lion trophies that needed to be covered up.

Lane is always the intellectual, that's why he and I gelled - cause I'm not! What he says is "true" IMO, but I think it went further than this - based on conversations I had with the Tanzanians in charge (I expect Lane will at least partially agree with this).

I believe that it wasn't just about whether or not the "age" of the lions taken was acceptable or not, but I think those in power in TZ took real exception to being told by the USFWS / others, that they had to have a 3rd party arbitrator, that they had to divulge the findings, etc....rather than the presumption being a "given" that they were following the rules - so to speak!

I understand that position as nobody likes the insinuation that one may be "lying or covering it up", but the fact remains that not being transparent lead the USFWS to seriously question the credibility. It could have gone a lot smoother, if TZ would have been transparent - regardless of the findings, and showed their full intent to work on "fixing" the situation. Which I honestly believe was / is there true intention....but taking "offense" to transparency was a bit of an immature move IMO.

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Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Tanzania has the stringest lion hunting regulations in Africa! They should be congratulated for this and supported with ennabling trade conditions to ensure the protected areas they have set aside (by the way, amongst the highest in the world!) are able to sustain themselves.

Yet, these efforts are not recognised by FWS or anyone else.

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Originally posted by fairgame:

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Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Tanzania has the stringest lion hunting regulations in Africa! They should be congratulated for this and supported with ennabling trade conditions to ensure the protected areas they have set aside (by the way, amongst the highest in the world!) are able to sustain themselves.

Yet, these efforts are not recognised by FWS or anyone else.

Indeed Brother Mitch and your President would do well to take the likes of Trump head on. African landlords need to be heard and the current international policies are tantamount to economic sabotage and does nothing to address land loss and desertification.