I am doing a bit of research on what rifle to buy and being in Africa and not having the priviledge to go to a shop and view the respective rifles and get the sales blurb i would appreciatte input from memebers who have the necessary knowledge and info. Remember before you comment, this is a plains game rifle and will not be used for DG - probably caliber .243 Win Mag.

Thanks

Question:
Which rifle would you choose for PG if cost was no consideration?

Choices:
Winchester M70
Remington 700
CZ550
HOWA

 

Why a .243?

One of my least favorite rounds. Heck,I wouldn't use one for whitetail deer, although many do successfully.

I picked M70 simply because I like it. The truth is: they all work, including Savage, Marlin, Weatherby, even Blaser. Use the one that fits you the best.

I own both and don't think it would matter a hoot for a plains game rifle.

The .243 is a great caliber for animals that do not go over 100 pounds. A kudu or gemsbok is going to run 450 pounds. An eland will easily top 1500 pounds. Better to keep the .243 for smaller animals and select an elk-class caliber for general African PH hunting.

The 243 Win is one of the best, ballanced cartridges ever invented, however for African plains game I'd have to agree with 500 Grains on it's suitability for much of African plains game. I totally agree with the 200 lb limit. The 243 with 100 gr Hornady bullets @ 3000 fps is one of the best Muledeer cartridges you can come by, and they weigh an average of 200 lbs on the hoof. I think as Dan says I'd be tempted to go a little larger with somthing like the 280 Rem, or 30-06, even a 7mm Mag, or 300 win mag.

I picked the Mod 70, but I could live with the new REM 798, which is a true Mauser 98, but the 700 rem would be my very last pick of the rifles you named. It cost no more for a CRF rifle, so why not have one so if you want to go bigger at some later date, you have the basis for a DGR!

I seldom disagree with Mac on any gun issue, but I think the .243 is a poor big game round and I have seen too many animals wounded with it and escape..They probably died, but they did not leave a blood trail and probably bled out internally and were lost...

that said, I use a lesser 6mm quite a bit, the 6x45 with a 75 gr. BarnesX at 2900 plus FPS and have never lost an animal with it, but I am very careful of the shots, the placement, and only hunt in fairly open country because it seldom leaves a blood trail if the run..Last buck I shot with it, I got full penetration and an exit hole, internal damage was massive, he ran about 100 yards and never dropped a drop of blood, but I saw him go down in the open country...

For big game IMO the good calibers begin with .270 caliber rifles and go up..The 30 calibers and up are the best for letting out a lot of blood IMO...They all kill about the same, so that is of little value to me.

Scott450

The only M70 I would ever consider buying would be a pre 64. (That the risk of attacking someone’s manhood or whatever.) I think the M70 post 64's are vastly inferior to the M700 of any date or make. M700's, Mauser 98’s, and pre 64 M70 seem to be the actions of choice for serious custom rifle makers which says something to me. To me the Savages, Brownings, and new M70's just don't compare to the smooth and superior action of a M700. The only consideration that I will give the post 64 M70 is the controlled round feed as MacD37 stated. With that being said if CRF is important to you there are MUCH better factory guns than the M70 being made today with CRF like Kimber M84’s or 8400’s. I have one in .325wsm and love it. I also like the M700 safety better than the 3 position safety on the M70 (or my Kimber for that matter, not really a big deal just my personal preference in safeties). I haven’t played with any small bore CZ’s which may be wonderful, but I think the big bores are blocky and (to quote Atkinson) “handle like a 2x4â€. I’m not familiar with the HOWAs. I’m sure I’ve stirred the ire of many a forum member, but just my 2 cents.

Brett

PS. Why .243?

Brett,

Your comment about the Post 64 M70 is interesting; perhaps you are suggesting that in its factory form it does not compare favorably with the others you have mentioned. Interestingly, many gunmakers feel the metallurgy of the post 64 CRF rifles is superior to many pre 64s. If I am not mistaken I also believe the Kimber rifles use a cylindrical rather than flat bottomed received. This is often thought to be a better platform for building a stable rifle. If that is your position, please elaborate upon the standard you are using as the basis of comparison. Afterall, various well known gunmakers including DArcy Echols favor the M70 Classic as the basis for what are arguably some of the best hunting rifles available.

I have no experience with the Howa or CZ, however I shot Remington 700 for years in hunting and custom target versions. Always accurate, never had a problem. I bought a couple of M70s in 338 Win and 375 H & H and have been very pleased with them. I will bring the 338 to Tanzania for my PG rifle in September.

Have to go along with consensus about the 243. It is to small for most African Plains Game. I have taken larger Plains Game with a 300 Win Mag using a 180 Swift A Frame. Kudu, Water Buck, Gemsbok, all being "bang flop" shots.

I also took an Eland that required follow-up only because of poor shooting on my part.

I have also used a 416 Rem Mag with 350 Swift A Frames on Plains game. Wildebeast, Hartebeast, Zebra, and Impala. Have to say while the results were excellent, they were not as spectacular. The reason for using the 416 was there were many other nasties in the area.

You don't state where you will be hunting. If there is no chance of any dangerous game in the area, then one of the "big 308" calibers would be great. If there is a chance of something nasty in the area, I would opt for something capable of covering ones butt

While I use M70's, nothing wrong with the Remington

a model 70 fab here and the .270 winchester with 150 grain A-Frames is the least power I'd use on Kudu, Gemsbok, Wildebeest, Zebra and eland.....

The .243 is fine for springbok, Impala, and animals of that size.

The .243 seems to be a cartrige that hunters either love or hate! I didn't think much of it until four years ago when my son started thumping deers with it. Since then I started thumping deers, and Pronghorns with it. I have been told by some Guides that they feel a White tailed deer is harder to bring down then a Moose. Anyways, I would hunt Plains Game with a .243, of course I would use a 100 gr. Nosler Partition. Just place your shots well, and good things will happen. The new Model 70 does compare with the Remington Model 700. The Pre'64 is in a class by itself, and one of the finest magazine rifles ever produced.

The post 64 Winchester was a brainstorm of the bean bandits to make a rifle as cheap as possible and at the highest price they could get away with..The endevor was a enormous failure and the old Win. company never could overcome the stigma..To say the post 64 has a single positive feature over the pre 64 is just wrong..The newer control feed Win. 64 were an attempt to regain the reputation of the pre 64 but due to some poor workmanship and customer relation they too went under...We will see what the new pre 64 recently being manufactured will have to offer, but you can bet the pre 64 that has proven itself in the hunting fields of the world for a 100 years will remain the holy grail to real riflemen, and will stand in halls of Valhalla with its twin brother the Mauser mod 98, and rightfully so....

You will not be able to legally hunt PG with a .243 in Namibia where the minimum is 7mm.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The post 64 Winchester was a brainstorm of the bean bandits to make a rifle as cheap as possible and at the highest price they could get away with..The endevor was a enormous failure and the old Win. company never could overcome the stigma..To say the post 64 has a single positive feature over the pre 64 is just wrong..The newer control feed Win. 64 were an attempt to regain the reputation of the pre 64 but due to some poor workmanship and customer relation they too went under...We will see what the new pre 64 recently being manufactured will have to offer, but you can bet the pre 64 that has proven itself in the hunting fields of the world for a 100 years will remain the holy grail to real riflemen, and will stand in halls of Valhalla with its twin brother the Mauser mod 98, and rightfully so....

I'm sure those 100 year old Model 70s are particularly rare these days, since it was introduced in 1936.

Gato,
Get a life, I had to make a point!! but to cover my a$$ I did include the Mauser 98, will that get me back 100? if not then I will be a little buckaroo and apoligize to the masses for my little mistake, but not my mind set, all hail the pre 64

A little different thinking from me, but I prefer to have a battery of the same type of rifle in different calibers. That's why my 300 WM, 375 H&H, and 404 Jeff are all Win Mod 70's. The only other rifle I have is a 243 in a Rem 788 I inherited.

Rem 700 is better.

Jewell trigger has a better break to it when fitted......like a glass rod.

Fit HS- Precision bottom metal and the shitty thing will feed better than a M70

Sako extractor and you are away.......and a M70 needs a proper extractor fitted anyway.......

And most gunsmiths will do a much better job glass bedding a M700 than a M70 because the round action is much easier to pull apart than a square M70 which they will use too much release agent on.

quote:

Originally posted by SBT:
I own both and don't think it would matter a hoot for a plains game rifle.

Right. I've used Remington, Browning and Winchester on plains game, and they all ended up dead as dirt. Pick what you like and use it.

Money was no object, then:

Stiller, Bordern or Lawton clone of a M700, just made straight and with tighter tolerances, match barrel by Lija, Krieger, Bartlein or here in Oz, Tobler.

H-S Precison bottom metal, Jewell trigger and H-S Precision stock. Bed the rings, fit a top quality scope and et voila!

quote:

Originally posted by Blair338/378:
Money was no object, then:

.........., fit a top quality scope and et voila!

I cannot comment much on the other advice, but agree with Blair338/378 on the quality scope. Buy a Zeiss in magnification, tube diameter and recticle you like, then scout around for a rifle to fit to your scope! Almost any rifle will do the job on plains game.

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

Not that it matters but I decided to offer my own two cents worth. As for rifle choice, so long as it works - feeds, shoots accurately, and ejects every times - it wont matter a hoot who made it.

Caliber however is quite another matter! I'm with the majority here against the .243 for PG. generally speaking. Now if by PG you mean small animals in wide open country, say springbok, then OK. If however you're hunting even small to medium game in the bush you'll wish you had a heavier bullet. Big bullets make big holes, hence better blood trails. Exit wounds double the chance of quick recovery! When you've spent several thousand dollars on a hunting trip why chance a lost animal?

Thanks for all the input. I already have a considerable number of rifles and am looking for a light PG gun, all my other rifles are controlled feed mauser type actions. For a light rifle that will not be used on DG or even in a DG area i figured the controlled feed is not so important.Since my original post i have done some more research and for a good out the box rifle the Kimber M84 looks very good? Will wait and see.Any comments?

Cheers

Flip a coin. As Caleb pointed out, the only consideration might be that if you intended to add a DG rifle to your batterie and CRF was important to you, you may want to consider having all of your rifles with the same action. Also heavier is better. Get a 375 H&H, load it down if you have to and never look back!

Sorry, I was writing when you were posting. Mrs Blacktailer has a Kimber in 308Win. It is a great little rifle and I use it (when she let's me) on PG.

one thing to consider is that the triger and saftey on a M700 are prone to getting dirty, and once they get full of gunk... you could be in trouble. The M70 doesn't have the places to collect the dust and sand like the M700 does.

I hunt with both models all the time and if you take care of them you won't have any problems at all. Matter of fact I leave tomorrow for RSA will be taking one of each. A 375H&H in M70 and a 280 Rem in M700 mountain rifle.