I'm really disappointed when I hear people applaud liars who take your money, essentially gamble with it to keep a failing business afloat, and then maybe give you what you paid for.

Remind me not to do business with Dutch.

If GS were being responsive to its customers' inquiries and giving honest reasons why product hadn't shipped, perhaps accompanied by offers of refunds, I would have some sympathy for their actions.

As it is, I would rather see GS go out of business completely. There are a lot of shooters who still don't know about these GS Custom's dishonest business practices, and these shooters are still sending money to GS. Those shooters may never see the bullets they are paying for.

If there is no U. S. patent on that GS design, my understanding is that knockoff GS bullets can be manufactured and sold in the United States. If there is no RSA patent, you can make them here and hunt in RSA with them. If enough people ask Nosler or Barnes (or another actual reputable manufacturer) maybe bullets like these will actually become available some day.

H. C.

It appears Dutche's "been there, done that" boils down to a very difficult time in his business life. So much so, that he's looking at this scenario from a rather obtuse angle ... that of a "comrade-in-arms" of another businessman in similar circumstances. I suggest he heed his own words and "deal with it", as he so sensitively advised 500 Grains and see this issue for what it is and not use it as a sounding board for his own frustrations.

As for Rustys suggestion, why not? Take the dollars from recent deposits and resolve the old ones ... but "Oh No" we can't do that, can we Dutch? Better to leave them all hanging. Afterall, they're likely forever lost as customers anyway.

Dutch says they are broke and have no money. They say they can't ship because of RSA Postal Service and poor personnel decisions. Yet they say they are increasing production, takes money to do that, and they are getting paid in advance.

Dutch you are plain wrong. Their customers purchased a product; they did not invest in a business like your banker did.

500Grains has been the picture of restraint during this whole ordeal. I would have been chewing someones ass on a regular basis on here and so would most any one else.

GS has exhibited not only poor business practices but incredibly stupid dealings with their customers. Their practices do not border on deceit, they are shining examples of it. If Dutch thinks that deluding people to take money from them on false pretenses is acceptable when you need the money then my opinion of him has dropped into as low as it can go.

They hire a manager supposedly and then ignore what he is doing and do not monitor his work and then blame undelivered goods on his poor work habits. I think Howards response regarding the bullshit meter was very apt.

Their ignoring those past due orders while they obviously deliver bullets to some new customers just paints them more like the disreputable people that they have shown themself to be.

Ray, contrary to your response, the posts that were rude stupid and uncalled for was your response to him. If you do not have anything intelligent to say then keep your mouth shut. He asked a legitimate question based on the difficulties you said exist there and you respond with rubbish. And his questions had nothing to do with his "one trip to Africa" but everything to do with operating and being a good business manager which I happen to know he is. The lack of experience does not seem to hinder you in your posts on Gunsmithing. I often see you commenting on subjects you know nothing about so at least you seem to be an expert in forming opinions out of thin air.

No, I don't have any investment in GS, and very glad I do not. I did, at one time, do a little background checking when the distributorship in the US was up for grabs. At that time, I decided that GS was not the kind of partner I was looking for. I like their product, I even think the people are pleasant enough to deal with. I just saw some flaws in their business model that, unfortunately, turned out to be critical.

The point is that some businesses go broke. We all deal with that, even as consumers. I've stood in front of airline counters that just went out of business, ticket in hand. I still hold a "free ticket anywhere Pan-Am flies", whoo-hoo! The other day, I bought a set of "lifetime flat repair and rotation" tires from my local tire peddler, two weeks before he lost his business. Am I supposed to go about whimpering how "evil" and "immoral" my tire guy is for promising me something he can't deliver? I'm out some money, sure. It happens. Neither my tire man nor Gerard is some Enron executive scheming to get our retirement account.

Is Gerard's "the bullets are in the mail" scheme wrong? Of course it is. That's not even up for discussion. Not only is it wrong, ethically, it is a moronic, destructive business move, obviously (to me anyway) born out of desperation. One of the reasons I have advised people not to play "postal roulette", for a long time.

I guess I post this stuff because I have been in dire straits before, and I pity the guy. I remember the ulcers. It was not fun, and it is not a position anyone would elect to expose themselves to. To imply intent is either plain stupid, or malicious.

Addressing the "robbing Peter to pay Paul" suggestion, that's cute turn of a phrase, but how much cash flow do you expect GS to have had these last couple of months? From what I can put together, they took deposits for bullets, put it down on another CNC machine, and then either the delivery was delayed, or they couldn't come up with the rest of the money. So, your bullet money is sitting in some German bank. I'm sure we all wish GS good luck getting it out. In other words, that company long ago robbed Peter to pay Paul. There is no one left to rob.

Fortunately, as I said before, it looks like there is some movement, and we should get some more info about deliveries in a matter of days. I still advise not to order direct, rather, get in touch with HV concepts when they do come on-line. At least it's easier to "have a word" with someone in Texas. JMO, Dutch.

lemme....
If a company charged my CC, we had NOT worked out that they would charge first, and I had not received my goods in 30 days, I would call the CC and reverse the charges.

It's called WIRE FRAUD in the US.

Since it's international, the ONLY thing one has to go on it reputation... again, if they had an outlet store between my house and my shop (120feet), i wouldn't stop by....

Dutch, I am certain that you may have rounded a few corners, but I am more than equally certain you would not have stolen from an older customer to get a new one.

jeffe

Jeffe, no, I have not ever failed to deliver on a promise to my customers, but I was/am blessed with some exceptionally patient and loyal customers. It makes me sad to think that Gerard had a similar kind of goodwill, and he foolishly squandered it. Right now, I suspect he is delivering to those customers that pay cash, and trying to keep the thing together. In his position, I would look at the old orders as "long term debt", and pay it off as I could. Personally, I think he will deliver, yet, but that's just my opinion. Dutch.

Dutch,
Yes I fit that description quite nicely! At least I haven't fraudulently stolen peoples' fund for order they will never receive.

If they don't have money to refund, they don't have money to buy stock and materials. They can't pay the help and they can't ship. Yet they keep accepting orders for a product that will never arrive. It is called stealing. They are thieves. Scam artists. If you try to place an order with them, shouldn't they say "Wait we can't meet production quotas, let us contact you when we can"?

How many times does a person have to steal from you before you give them the boot Dutch? There is no defense for their actions, none!

Those who think these people are just poor folks who got caught up in the "success story syndrome" need to put down your copy of Hans Christian Andersen and smell the pile of bull shit!

Once upon a time. . . .

Rusty
We band of brothers!

I've never even looked at a GS bullet and won't. If there's one thing that pisses me off worse than someone who won't deliver the goods, it's working up a great load and then finding out I can't find the bullets, powder, etc. next time. There are plenty of good bullets around. Call Mike Brady at North Fork and see if you get this kind of treatment. I'll bet not! Anyone in any country who operates a business this way deserves to be out of cash and in reality this is probably why he is in trouble, he probably doesn't pay the equipment makers, suppliers, etc. any better than he delivers bullets. Just poor business and I refuse to do business with anyone who operates in such a poor unethical manner no matter how good the product. He should patent the bullets, sell the rights to Nosler, Speer, or one of the others and let them produce and market them, as he obviously has none of the skills required to do this. These problems are common to "idea" men, having great ideas but failing in the business sense it takes to make an idea collide with reality.

I think if GS would contact their long outstanding customers and all individually offer them refunds, perhaps trying to make a part refund of say 20%. The rest promised when available. They would get considerable good will out of it.

Their trouble is they should have done this six months ago when they still had some goodwill. Their problem now is their long suffering waiting customers have heard every excuse there is and won't believe another perhaps real explanation.

Also had they tried to get an outside invester ealier and they probably could have got one quite easily from a wealthy US shooter they would never had got into this. Now they can really only sell the whole business at a big discount. Very few investors would be willing to trust them now.

It is a very common problem for small very "successful" business to over extend if their sales increase exponentially. Cashflow not profits is the key to business success.

I came into a business which was very successful but had severe cashflow problems - creditors out to six months. You talk to them and sometimes do not take their calls (otherwise you will never have time to make the cash). But you keep your customers happy. And the bank as happy as you can as well. Then you sell 51% (or 49%) of the business to a wealthy investor.

Too late for GS I think.

In the end no loss, plenty of other good bullet manufacturers to choose from and 99.99% of the animals do not know the difference no matter what the online marketers say.

BTT

I thought I would re-post this here from the other thread, just for the record:

THE FOLLOWING ARE SAMPLE EMAIL CORRESPONDENCE WITH GS CUSTOM SINCE THE FIRST OF JANUARY, 2003 REGARDING A BULLET ORDER I PLACED in 12/01. THE FIRST HALF OF THE BULLET ORDER WAS SHIPPED in 11/02 AND THE SECOND HALF OF THE BULLET ORDER HAS NEVER BEEN SHIPPED.

_____

7/16/03

Dear Gerard and Gina:

I think I have been more than patient in waiting for the second half of my order of bullets. If you recall, I sent GS Custom US$504.00 in 12/01 and received half of the order in 11/02. In 3/03 Gerard told me the second half of the order had shipped. But I have not received that shipment and you have refused to respond to my email inquiries.

I must conclude that you did not send me the order in 3/03 and that your statement at that time was FALSE. At this time please either send me the bullets that I ordered or send me a refund. I am tired of hearing false promises and false statements and just want to be finished with this.

Please respond to this email. I will continue to post the true status of my order with GS Custom on internet web sites until this is resolved. Thank you.

Sincerely,

_______________

6/24/03

Dear Gerard,

Since you refuse to respond to email for months at a time (except email placing orders), I have resorted to an open letter to you in hope that you can resolve my grievance.

On 12/4/2001, I ordered more than US$500 in bullets from you, to be shipped via airmail which I paid a premium for. The bullets did not arrive in the promised two weeks, so I began to inquire. After three months you told me that a replacement shipment of bullets had been sent. Your excuse for the first shipment going missing was dishonest people in the RSA post office.

The second shipment of bullets did not arrive either. After ignoring several months of emails from me, via telephone you said that you would have your daughter look into it.

In the late summer of 2002, your daughter told me that the bullets were never sent at all; neither the original shipment nor the replacement was sent. The excuse was that an incompetent employee had logged orders as shipped when they were not.

But at the time, your equipment was broken and you could not make bullets. Then when the equipment was fixed, I was told that you ran out of copper and could not make bullets. Then when you had copper I was told that you ran out of boxes and could not ship bullets. Finally, your daughter told me that half of my order had shipped and I received them in late 2002. Thank you.

As for the second half of the order, on March 26, 2003 you wrote the following to me:

quote:

---

Dear Dan,

We have finally got this confusion sorted out. Your bullets are on the way (Thursday past) and we have added extra for you by way of an apology. We are all pretty stressed out and this will continue for the next couple of months till the new factory is running. By mid year, backlogs should be a bad memory. Let us know when they arrive and how you do with them. Some pics of the rifle you use the 640gr FNs in would be nice for our gallery pages!

Regards from an apologetic

Gerard and Gina

---

I waited patiently for more than a month for the bullets to arrive via air mail, but they never came. Then I started emailing both you and Gina to try to get you to run a trace on the bullets but to date neither of you have responded to any of my many emails.

Now I am wondering if the March shipment of the second half of my order was a real shipment, or a phantom shipment. Maybe the bullets were not shipped at all.

I would just like to receive the bullets that I paid you for. Please respond, and if the bullets were not actually shipped, then please ship them. If the bullets were shipped, please track them and put in an insurance claim and ship new ones.

Hoping for some customer service....

Sincerely,

_____________

5/8/03

Dear Gerard and Gina:

I understand from the email below that the second half of my bullet order was mailed on 3/20/2003. It has not yet arrived. Is it too early to worry, or should it have arrived?

Is there a way to run a trace?

Thank you.

Sincerely,

________________

3/26/03

Dear Gerard and Gina:

Thank you for confirming the order, and thank you for the extra bullets.

I will be happy to send you photos of my searcy 500 NE double and my 585 nyati rifle with the sample targets.

I hope you are well.

Sincerely,

__________________

3/26/03

Dear Dan,

We have finally got this confusion sorted out. Your bullets are on the way (Thursday past) and we have added extra for you by way of an apology. We are all pretty stressed out and this will continue for the next couple of months till the new factory is running. By mid year, backlogs should be a bad memory. Let us know when they arrive and how you do with them. Some pics of the rifle you use the 640gr FNs in would be nice for our gallery pages!

Regards from an apologetic

Gerard and Gina

________________

3/26/03

Dear Gina:

I cannot understand why you have not responded to my email regarding shipment of the second half of my bullet order. I do not think I am being unreasonable since the order was paid in full on
12/4/2001.

PLEASE TELL ME IF THE ORDER HAS SHIPPED, AND IF NOT, PLEASE TELL ME WHEN IT WILL SHIP.

Thank you.

______________________

2/24/03

Dear Dan,

We have a many orders being sent this week, yours being one of them. We where waiting for our packaging boxes to arrive from our supplier because we ran out. The only ones we had where the small ones that we got first, so I hope you don't mind getting the 510 FN's in the small boxes we packed them in.

I know it's been a long wait and that you're anxious to get them. I'll be sending your parcel by Air Mail and it should take about 4 weeks to reach you.

Regards,

_____________

2/9/03

Gina,

It's been a couple of weeks since you were packing the order. Have you been able to ship it yet?

Sincerely,

________________

1/24/03

Dear Dan,

Your order is being prepared and packed by the shipping department at the moment. I left it with them yesterday so I'll be able to send it next week

Everything is going well here. We are very busy with the expansion plans and are now aiming to be up and running in the new factory as early as April instead of June/July. We'll be able to put more dealers in place in the US then (we have a list of guys to get back to). The backorder problem we have at the moment will also come to a end and hopefully stay that way, because we'll keep on steadily expanding. Who knows, we might be the largest bullet manufacturer in a few years!

Regards, Gina

_______________

The missing second half of the order is for:

4 boxes 475500FN .075x25
1 box 580640FN .106x25
2 boxes 458450FN .049x50

...just in case Gerard Schultz stops by to read this.

BTT

Exactly what was it about GS bullets that made them special, that couldn't be found in another bullet maker? Are they really "that good"?
Once they've fixed 'the problem', will any of you re-order them eventually?
~~~Suluuq

Rusty, IF Gerard makes good on his outstanding orders, I would buy more, if I need them, but only from a local dealer. I would not recommend anyone try to buy direct, unless it is "cash and carry".

The GS claims to fame are that they are easy to make shoot well, they have very high BC's, and the terminal performance is exceptional. JMO, Dutch.

BTT

Dutch,

Apparently their most famous claim to fame is taking money for products they don't have to ship.

Set a date reminder on your computer for Dec. 5th, 2003. That's my birthday. If half of these problem orders a cleared up by then including 500grains, I'll send you a bottle of 15 year old
Longmorn single malt scotch whisky for your steadfast belief in GS. If the orders are not cleared, I'll drink it!

A little something to look forward to, eh?

Rusty
We band of brothers!

Rusty,

That is a most generous offer. I will make you a counter offer. If this mess does get straightened out, I will come down to Texas, and drink a glass with you.

I hope I am not speaking out of turn here, but the US distributor finally got half his (pre-paid) order shipped last week. He's had about 20 times the amount of money on the line that 500grains had out, and he had it out longer. I do hope we can at least agree on the fact that this is progress. Of course, things could get better, or worse from here. Dutch.

Dutch your order went out this morning. You should have it Wed. or Thur.

What's so special about their bullets?

So, the US distributor had half his order "shipped" in the last week. Now let me see ...... 500Grains had his "shipped" four or so times in the last year. I am wondering how many "shipments" equals some form of reality.

I liked their product but the business practice is not acceptable here in the states or anywhere as far as I am concerned.

Why would anyone attempt to deal with them knowing the company track record. With the new bullets available there is no need to bother.

I switched to groove bullets due to the superior product and unbeatable customer service out of Don and his company. Also have been impressed with the barnes triple shock out of my 25-06. If you liked the gs hv, give these a try and let the gs customs dry and blow away.

I got my g.s. bullets from the U.S. dealer Sat.They were 160g 30cal & 3 shot groups were less than 3/4in at 100yd in my 300 Win mag .78g of v160 fed 210m.

Customstox: I tracked the shipment. It was tendered in Port Elizabeth, traveled through Johannesberg to Atlanta and on to it's final destination. It cleared customs and was picked up. Apparently, from what I read here, some bullets were shipped the same day to fill backorders. HTH, Dutch.

500grains, I certainly hope that yours arrive. You certainly deserve them given the patience you have shown. I suspect that they have run out of excuses, maybe it is time for them to perform.

My bullets are here,I pick them up from the US dealer on friday! I am looking forward to getting my hands on those 95 grn. 264's. My little model Seven should really like those!!

BTT

gerard, where are you?

BTT